00:01.42 archaeoteacup Welcome back everyone I hope that the teacups are fuller and the biscuit jar is emptier. So thank you so much for telling us all about those amazing objects Andrew but we did talk a little bit already about kind of art and the the concept of art in archaeology and in free history and how you first became interested in it. Um. 00:12.50 Andrew Jones If you. 00:19.74 archaeoteacup And so how would you say that the the kind of topic of art and I'm using this with kind of inverted commas but I never know what what terminology to use in this respect in the field of archaeology. How do you think that topic has kind of developed over the years is it something that is quite commonly studied now is it always studied. 00:23.85 Andrew Jones Um, yeah. 00:29.40 Andrew Jones Through. 00:38.18 Andrew Jones I mean it's kind of always been studied I guess um, but it's had a renaissance in the last um maybe 10 years it seems to been a lot more. Um. 00:54.85 Andrew Jones Focus on the arche gi art. Um, fairly recently I'm not entirely sure why that is I mean I've always been studying it I've I I started out studying rock art in Scotland. Um, and I mean started out right? The beginning with with this grooveedwe pottery. Um, so I'm mean I've always been fascinated by it. But then I mean there's this. 01:17.95 archaeoteacup Okay. 01:30.63 Andrew Jones There's a ah large kind of large group of researchers studying rock art globally and and that's I mean that's been of interest I think since the pretty much since the discipline began. Um. 01:36.89 archaeoteacup Are. 01:48.60 archaeoteacup And what would be your kind of elevator pitch if someone would say but why why is it important to look at look at art in the past. 01:50.61 Andrew Jones But. 01:56.43 Andrew Jones Okay, that's some I mean I guess it's important because you're looking at how I mean that this the usual pictures to say oh you're looking at. 02:13.53 archaeoteacup Is it. 02:14.28 Andrew Jones Human expression in the past but actually I'm not not so interested in these sort of representational aspects of art I'm more interested in how things are made and um. 02:28.30 archaeoteacup And. 02:33.51 Andrew Jones More interested in how people are relating to their environment through making so how they're actually I mean rock art is the the best example of that where they're actually carving Into. Um. Living Rock surfaces or painting on living rock surfaces and what what that's giving you is a sense of how they're relating to particular places and how ah how they're relating. 02:56.50 archaeoteacup Um. 03:11.75 Andrew Jones To themselves how they're relating to people in the past so you cannot often see surfaces that are carved over and over or painted over and over. Um, so I you know I think it's it's about relationship. It's about. 03:20.87 archaeoteacup Oh. 03:31.20 Andrew Jones People's relationship to the the environment and to each other in the past which is kind of what archaeology is in a Nu chat exactly. 03:40.32 archaeoteacup I Say quite a key part of archaeology could argue you? Yeah I'll hang on a se sorry I just got to stop one second. My daughter's cry I'll just wait for her to move to another room. Don't worry. She's being fed. My husband's probably just. 03:50.19 Andrew Jones Okay. 03:58.21 archaeoteacup Getting milk. Okay, yeah. 04:01.89 Andrew Jones Rule How old is she? okay. 04:03.40 archaeoteacup Um, no five months so she's a okay, um, well be done soon then I can now go at Vita. Um, what' I going to ask? Oh yes and so but of course it is quite a ah sort of complex. Topic the idea of art because as you say it's so kind of based in what people are interpreting and how they're relating themselves to the world around them. So how is it is it possible to study that archeologically or what? what are the difficulties of that kind of research topic. Would you say. 04:27.61 Andrew Jones Um, and. 04:35.18 Andrew Jones Um, it is possible to study Archaeologically it I mean its you know I think I think the instinct in archaeology in the archaealjava to begin with was to. Study art in terms of representation and and symbol and there's nothing wrong with that. But um, I've kind of shifted the conversation towards things like making. 05:13.42 Andrew Jones And the yeah process of relating to environment and to each other through artt making um and you know I think I actually think ah. 05:15.72 archaeoteacup So. 05:22.81 archaeoteacup Um. 05:32.60 Andrew Jones The study of Arts got as much relationship um to the study of technology and and I think actually these the study of. 05:49.16 Andrew Jones Processes of making through technology Chinappe Well those are actually really useful approaches to take to the study art. So think it's it's It's definitely duable. 06:01.47 archaeoteacup Um. 06:08.90 archaeoteacup Um. 06:08.14 Andrew Jones I don't think it has to be something that's beyond the reach of of Usa's archeologists 06:13.74 archaeoteacup And of you mentioned before you've worked with artists and you worked with the with the stone cutters would you say that it's important in this topic to already have an understanding of of art or craft or is it more important to work with. Others How how does that balance out. Would you say. 06:35.61 Andrew Jones Um, yeah I think it's it. It is um it is useful I mean I I mean um I think it's useful to. 06:50.64 Andrew Jones Disentangle yourself from conversations of our art because I think I think we tend to get into a tangle over the definition of art and archaeology. And I think it's art. 1 of those words in the english language that's actually extremely difficult to pin down and it's extremely difficult to pin down archaeologically but also in the contemporary setting. 07:14.55 archaeoteacup So. 07:26.17 Andrew Jones The debate. So for what artists are constantly changing. So I find it very useful to to read Ken temporary art discussions around what art is but um. 07:29.48 archaeoteacup Um. 07:38.60 archaeoteacup Here. 07:42.56 Andrew Jones Actually working with makers is really really useful, Um, artists tend to think completely differently to the lateral thinkers and it's always enjoyable to work with people like. 07:52.45 archaeoteacup Are. 08:00.88 Andrew Jones That so I've worked over the last ten years with that Ian Dawson and Louis who based up winches and Louisa Lincolnin who's based at central soha Andton Londonton so one of the amazing things we'll be doing since. The cars involves project is working with makers in indigenous makers in Canada. Um, so we've been working with members of the blackfoot community. So amazingly the um. 08:27.60 archaeoteacup Ah, oh can I. 08:38.66 Andrew Jones The digital techniques are used for looking at the costume balls. Um, the artist was working with got really excited by the techniques and as I said Louisa is based at central sub martins which is one of the biggest of at schools in the Uk um. 08:54.58 archaeoteacup Okay. 08:58.41 Andrew Jones And she taught those techniques to all sorts of people in the building to be now using these same techniques that we use in archeology in the fashion school and and Central Samtan's fashion school is is like you with it or the kind. 09:14.70 archaeoteacup Ah, okay. 09:17.99 Andrew Jones The leading edge fashion is coming up of centralars and yeah so I Love the fact that archaeological techniques are being used there but we we we were approached by a um. 09:20.32 archaeoteacup God was we're expanding for expanding the archeological field. 09:37.16 Andrew Jones Ah, um, lady working in the gallery at the university of lethbridge in Alberta in Canada and the University Of Luxbridge is cited on. Um. On what's known as treaty seven land. So it's part of a blackfoot reservation and there are quite a lot of blackfoot people working in the university and we we put on an exhibition. 10:01.95 archaeoteacup Listen. 10:12.18 Andrew Jones At the end of the making him art project and this this lady attended and immediately set these techniques could be used to record black fork Artifacts. So We've been. We've been doing that So we've been recording. Artifacts that are in UKMuseums and which been kind of lost by the but what they didn't even know they were there. We've been working with makers so that pod. 10:37.31 archaeoteacup Um. 10:42.90 archaeoteacup Oh Gosh allay. 10:52.14 Andrew Jones The aim of the project that's been to kind of revitalize these craft traditions um in light folk territory by yeah, digitally recording objects. 10:59.29 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 11:10.70 Andrew Jones Kind of giving those digital records then back to the blackfoot community. It's It's pretty much winding up now we we did it mainly over the pandemic. So. 11:14.34 archaeoteacup Amazing and this is a project that's still ongoing or it's. 11:27.96 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 11:28.95 Andrew Jones Over the course of the pandemic I spendt each week talking to people on the pla foot reservation in in Alberta and you've now run out of money. Unfortunately. 11:37.11 archaeoteacup Um, ah okay. 11:48.13 Andrew Jones So the project is kind of winding up but the the main aim was to create a website with selected objects and the website is managed by. 11:49.16 archaeoteacup Okay. 12:05.15 Andrew Jones For community. So yeah, yeah, so it's kind of I mean digital repatriation I guess is is 1 12:05.27 archaeoteacup Okay, so almost like a digital version of the of the objects and the technologies. Yeah. 12:17.00 archaeoteacup Yes. 12:22.23 Andrew Jones 1 way of thinking about it. But it's not I mean it's not really repatriation. It's more about so revitalizing crafts that been lost. So I've learned a lot about um. 12:33.58 archaeoteacup Yeah, oh amazing. 12:39.88 Andrew Jones Porcupines and how to have to use porcupine krills in their. 12:44.30 archaeoteacup And do you find? There's quite a difference in the because I imagine for the previous projects as they were focused possibly mainly on on British Prehistory You mainly worked with kind of British crafters and and artists. But do you find that there's quite a cultural difference in working. 12:52.70 Andrew Jones And yeah. 13:02.31 archaeoteacup With artists from other places are there different perspectives being given. 13:06.36 Andrew Jones I Mean there are different perspectives The the the main thing with the black for is that's um, unlike Western artists for for the black for these objects are actually living there. Living Beings. Um, so you know that's and that's kind of something we discuss over the time in in Archaeology. Maybe people had the sense of ay but actually to be talking to people. 13:26.50 archaeoteacup Um, live in. 13:42.30 Andrew Jones Who believe that these objects are alive is is really striking. 13:51.30 archaeoteacup Yeah, that would be almost interesting then to do a you know? ah an expanded calfstone ball project but taking them out outside of the Uk working with different cultures and seeing how they would interpret them. 13:58.80 Andrew Jones Um, yeah I I didn't show any plug for people cast symbols I think they'd be kind of fascinated on them I mean they have their own rock art traditions. 14:08.30 archaeoteacup Yeah. 14:15.36 Andrew Jones 1 of the biggest rock art sites in North America is on back foot tra tree. 14:20.65 archaeoteacup Ah I see I see oh so you know could be could be a future project. Um, are there any exciting future projects related to to carving art archeology that are coming up that you. 14:23.80 Andrew Jones Are. 14:33.80 Andrew Jones Um, um, well I'm doing several several things at the moment at the moment I'm working in Portugal on in the coa valley which um. Is one of the most amazing places I've ever been to. It's in Northern Portugal and it's it's a valley system that has rock art from the gravetteian in Polyolithic. So. 14:56.19 archaeoteacup Isn't. 15:09.21 archaeoteacup Wow. 15:09.24 Andrew Jones 30000 vp up to the twentieth century and our our focus is actually I'm working with portuguese colleagues and our focus is on post-palylithic. 15:20.20 archaeoteacup Oh. 15:27.51 Andrew Jones Stuff. So we're we're looking at Neolithic and calculithic art which is actually painted which is a departure for me i' always always worked with them with. 15:45.46 archaeoteacup Are. 15:46.84 Andrew Jones Carved material so actually working with painting ochre painted is is kind of amazing. 15:51.25 archaeoteacup Oh amazing. Yeah oh very cool, sounds sounds very interesting. Well it's it sounds like you have a lot to be getting on with so I I should probably let you get back to it. Let you get back to what but thank you? So so much for for joining me today Andrew to. 16:00.92 Andrew Jones Oh yeah. 16:10.17 archaeoteacup To talk all about the ah the calf stone balls and art in archaeology. Um, yeah, and if anyone wants to find out more about Andrew's work about the projects that we've mentioned or about the calfstone balls just check the show notes on the podcast. 16:12.35 Andrew Jones Okay, that's great. Thanks. It's been great to talk to chat. 16:29.27 archaeoteacup Podcast homepage also do keep an eye on my socials. The archeologists teacup for a very exciting calf stoneball announcement that will be coming up in the next month or so I hope that you enjoyed our journey today if you want to help support the show and all of the other amazing series that form the archeology podcast network why not become a member. You'll be helping me and my fellow hosts to create even more amazing archaeological content and interview. Fantastic expert guests like Andrew and you will also have exclusive access to ad-free episodes bonus content like our quarterly online seminars which look at different topics within archaeology. For more information. Check out the homepage at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.