00:00.00 archaeoteacup Welcome back everyone. So we now know a little bit more about calvestone balls. But Andrew maybe you can tell us even more about it so we spoke a little bit about the kind of variation of of these balls themselves. What is it that actually links them then together. How do we know that they're 1 00:13.90 Andrew Jones Yeah. 00:19.42 archaeoteacup Category of the calves Stone balls. 00:20.30 Andrew Jones Okay, that's quite quite a tough one. So in terms I mean in terms of category in terms of typology. There are a whole series of different types that as I mentioned Dorothy Marshall 00:35.89 archaeoteacup Are. 00:38.95 Andrew Jones Earlier and she's one of the first people back in the late 70 s to to catalogue these these balls. Um, it's mainly their um their size for most of them. Um. Around centtimemeters in size and then you've got this larger group that's just over a hundred millimeters so it's mainly their size their geology so most of them are made of um. 01:02.65 archaeoteacup So. 01:16.69 Andrew Jones Metamorphic or ignes rocks which are obviously the the part of the geology of the northeast of Scotland and um then you've got. 01:24.66 archaeoteacup So. 01:34.79 Andrew Jones Similarities of of design within the within the the balls as well. Um, yeah, So so that's that's what links them together as an object. As a custom object category. 01:52.32 archaeoteacup And and so how many? um so said that there're sort of varying designs. How many different designs are there so you had mentioned that there were some that were smooth. There were some that looked like hedgehogs um, are there kind of variations within those designs as well, right. 02:00.90 Andrew Jones A. Well, that's actually a really tough question I mean one of the things yet. That's one one of the things my research has done is actually break down that concept of of. 02:10.67 archaeoteacup I So it's what I'm here for. 02:24.99 Andrew Jones Them having typologies. So um, one of the first things I did um when I was studying these objects was working with artists. In fact, we've talked about arts earlier. 02:39.30 archaeoteacup So. 02:42.50 Andrew Jones Working with artists at winchester school of art. We actually made calf jump balls and I I looked at the the papers on um, these objects and their categories and I thought hold on a minute. 03:02.37 Andrew Jones Aren't We're just looking at different stages in the making process. So I wanted to test that out wanted to see if if you know it kind of worked in my mind but I wanted to see if it really. 03:08.51 archaeoteacup Um. 03:19.98 Andrew Jones Work in practice. So I mean this is tech go back ten years ago now I did a workshop with Ian Dawson who was head a sculpture at winchester school of art and we brought together archaeologists and. Sculpture students and we made calfsstone balls but we made them we cheated. We didn't make them up stone because yet no no, we made them up plus um and we. 03:45.99 archaeoteacup I was about to ask? Did you use the hard hard igneous rock. Ah okay, okay. 03:56.43 Andrew Jones So I presented to the students. My hypothesis that these things were made in a series of sequential stages. You start off kind of making it a completely spherical ball a smooth ball and then you. Divide up spaces on that ball and then he stops carving out between the spaces and as you carve out between the spaces the knobs which are found on these balls Appear. So The. The ah my hypothesis work they are and the various types that dorothy marshall identifies are actually stages in a process of Making. Um, and um, one I mean one of the things that workshop did which was really amazing was to teach us how complex these things are I mean I'm not a sculptor. 05:13.80 archaeoteacup Um. 05:13.95 Andrew Jones But I found actually making these things 3 hree-dimensionally to be really complex trying to understand the threedimensional kind of geometry of of these things is really. 05:29.95 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 05:33.36 Andrew Jones Really difficult and in actual fact, the knos with ah the the balls with their 4 knobs are some of the easiest to make. Um. 05:44.56 archaeoteacup I Really I would have thought it with the other way round because they would need to be so perfectly positioned but the ones with multiple you could just kind of cheat a little bit but no, that's not the case. 05:55.32 Andrew Jones Um, well I guess if you looked carefully you haven't looked at so many the multi-nobbed ones. But I think if you look I mean they are a little bit haphazard. You're right? but um as we were learning. 06:00.39 archaeoteacup And. 06:06.50 archaeoteacup Business. 06:12.22 Andrew Jones We used the just four knobs and that was that was actually we found that to be relatively simple to to understand. 06:25.10 archaeoteacup Okay, interesting. 06:30.20 Andrew Jones So. 06:31.68 archaeoteacup And so you mentioned that these are made out of plaster. You are you planning at any point to to replicate the workshop using stone. 06:42.14 Andrew Jones Um, no I I mean basically there's workshoppers just to to kind of understand the process. It was a bit of experimental archeology to to see if my hypothesis actually worked um and since then we've. 06:52.64 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 06:59.33 Andrew Jones Done. Um, so I did a very large project on not just on carfs and balls. But on decorated neolithic objects from across Britain and Island um. 07:09.71 archaeoteacup This is. 07:15.92 archaeoteacup Was this the making a mark. Yeah. 07:17.85 Andrew Jones Um, this is making Mark yeah, and so we visited I think pretty much every museum in Britain and Ireland that had neolithic objects in it. Um, and we were doing. 07:31.73 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 07:36.33 Andrew Jones Digital imaging who were doing structure for motion photommetry and reflectance transformation imaging Oti so we were recording the. 07:46.84 archaeoteacup Um. 07:55.10 Andrew Jones Balls to see if we could see any any evidence working on the on the surface. 08:03.87 archaeoteacup And this relates to it. So I so I do microware analysis and Usewa analysis. Um, and I really really wanted to do a project on the calvestone balls from a microware perspective to see if I could do anything but it was a I was too complicated because ah. 08:05.92 Andrew Jones It. 08:15.14 Andrew Jones Ah. 08:20.32 archaeoteacup It seemed that they because of the way that they had been found and processed post findings. It was sort of unsure if a use where study would actually be possible because their context is so unknown. Um, if that makes sense So so we didn't end up doing it but that sounds yeah, really interesting and did you. 08:29.10 Andrew Jones Um, yeah. 08:36.25 archaeoteacup Then find that there was evidence of kind of post-working then and. 08:39.52 Andrew Jones Yeah, so basically so once once I've worked out that what you have the kind of types that we find are actually just points in the process of making um. 08:57.35 Andrew Jones Then understood that you know the working of these objects was was really Important. We actually found evidence of um so they're kind of they're working and they kind of um, ah. Making up their mind about what the design is so it in some cases they they're study offerable design and then they erae it and then then then starts a different design. There are quite a lot of balls that we looked up that were just. 09:24.82 archaeoteacup Interesting. 09:31.44 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 09:34.91 archaeoteacup Yeah, okay. 09:35.29 Andrew Jones Completely unfinished. Um, with I mean one of the molten-oped balls where they just they started packing out spaces for. Individual knobs and then they just left it and obviously it was too much for that. Um, so I mean one of the things we realized was actually those playing balls were really important because. 09:53.98 archaeoteacup Um. 10:07.83 archaeoteacup Um. 10:09.33 Andrew Jones That meant that that was a kind of early stage in the process that that smoothed the the ball into a 3 and then get just left it and you know that was soon a yeah, a ball that had been discarded. 10:17.50 archaeoteacup Are um. 10:25.89 archaeoteacup Um. 10:28.30 archaeoteacup But then if they're so it'seering the neolithic so presumably they're using stone tools so you mentioned pecking but from from my memory I Mean for example, the Towy ball is so the design is so carved beautifully I mean it would that have been. 10:30.47 Andrew Jones Partway in the process in. 10:39.57 Andrew Jones Are the typos ridiculous. Yeah yeah. 10:46.41 archaeoteacup Using flint tools. Do you think that that's maybe late neolithic So we're starting to see metal. Okay. 10:48.12 Andrew Jones Yeah I don't think now I don't think it is metal I mean this is one of the debates back in before we started actually sub stuet Needham had suggested that some of them. Maybe Bronze edge because of the fineness of their working. Um, and there are some from Bronze age kissed in in Aberricia. Um, so one of the things I wanted to. 11:08.16 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 11:13.30 archaeoteacup Um. 11:18.83 archaeoteacup Are. 11:26.12 Andrew Jones Firmly show us that they you know as far as we could see that most of them were neolithic and that the best contents we could find were neolithic settlements. Um, but yet the details of how they're made. 11:32.82 archaeoteacup Um. 11:39.44 archaeoteacup Um, this is it. 11:45.50 Andrew Jones Um, still escapes me to be honest, honest, it's it's ah exactly I mean and the towey balls just staggering on this other. 11:55.50 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 12:01.82 Andrew Jones Amazing ones is the alfred ball as well. Which is um also also from aberinia which is in the calvin grove museum in Blasgow and a many. 12:09.60 archaeoteacup Um, is it. 12:15.94 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 12:19.38 Andrew Jones Ah, kind of first sight. It looks like a a tennis ball is. It's not got they they can of knobs on its surface. Not very heavily carved. But what they've done is carve in beautiful detail in between and the knobs. So that. What's technically known as the inters spaces between the knobs are beautifully carved. Um, so yeah, so the towie ball gets all the kind of publicity is amazing, but this one is. 12:44.61 archaeoteacup Oh right? Yes yes I think I've seen a picture of that one. Yeah, the. 12:54.88 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:58.87 Andrew Jones Is almost just nice. Um, one of the amazing things we discovered with the towi ball was that's incomplete as well. So yeah, so all the publications of the tory ball show you this beautifully carved. 13:06.72 archaeoteacup Really. 13:18.25 archaeoteacup Are. 13:18.34 Andrew Jones Ball I mean it's beautifully carved. But what what they don't show you is that one of the knobs is complete uncarved. So um, we you know that was until we actually visited museums and um, picked that one up, you know we we didn't. 13:24.87 archaeoteacup True. 13:38.20 Andrew Jones We didn't know that that was uncarved. Um, so even the most amazingly carved objects are also sort of partially complete. Yeah no looks out. 13:50.30 archaeoteacup Partially done. Oh what could they have become if we have they'd been given time and we briefly mentioned earlier the idea of use. So we've talked a bit about kind of what they are how they might have been made. But as when I was looking this up One of the main. 14:00.70 Andrew Jones Are. 14:07.69 archaeoteacup Big debates is of course about about why they were made. Um and what they were used for. So why? why is there so much debate about this. How how is it so difficult to understand what they would have been used for. 14:19.78 Andrew Jones I think that I mean the debate is basically their fascinating objects I mean I think they're one of the most interesting objects that we can look up from the Neolithic um and they. 14:27.18 archaeoteacup I agree. Yeah. 14:35.78 Andrew Jones They fascinate people. They're fascinated such a range of people So this it's not just Archaeologists artists are interested in them Mathematicians are interested in them. Um, so ah. 14:42.43 archaeoteacup And. 14:55.27 Andrew Jones I think it. It's just striking because they did so some of them so beautifully made and so intricately made and then we just cannot work out. What could be used for. 15:05.92 archaeoteacup Um. 15:11.54 archaeoteacup So so what are some of the most popular theories then about their use. 15:13.25 Andrew Jones Um, well, there's I mean it depends where you look I mean you use you Google didnt and doesn't much coming up but there's some amazing stuff on the internet um around them. So. 15:31.71 Andrew Jones Is um, there's discussion to them as kind of Alien eggs and you know all these kind of slightly crazy ideas. Yeah um, and um. 15:41.58 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, the Pseudo the Pseudo input. Yeah. 15:50.97 Andrew Jones Is one one theory that was popular but ten fifteen years ago was from ah a experimental archaeologist in Exeter and he argued that they were used for. Rolling maggaliths so like ball bearings. Um, and he actually devised a whole experimental method with exoter students where they they shifted megaliths around. 16:12.82 archaeoteacup Ah, okay. 16:28.97 Andrew Jones Using that again. They didn't use stone but they used stone wooden balls of the right size. No well this? Well the the way thing was they did this around. 16:30.51 archaeoteacup The stone balls like I can't imagine the Towy ball being used as a simple ballbearing I must say. 16:46.91 Andrew Jones In the stonehennge landscapes and we had these these runners these smooth kind of wooden channels with with wooden balls to place between them and they did successfully move. 16:56.10 archaeoteacup Are okay earth. 17:08.50 Andrew Jones Um, you know megaliths of a ton in weight. But I mean there are actually no balls further south in Yorkshire. Um, there's a lot of megaliths in aberdeensha. But no. 17:17.66 archaeoteacup Ah, right. 17:25.93 Andrew Jones Calf symbols associated with them and if my date are correct then they predate those serve those megali by yeah, you know at least at least 500 years um 17:28.48 archaeoteacup Um I have. 17:34.56 archaeoteacup Okay. Okay, yeah, so likely a nice theory but not necessarily practical. 17:44.97 Andrew Jones So yeah, so I mean I mean he demonstrated. Yes, he could use balls to move megaliths. But I mean as you say things like the tawi ball and. 17:56.47 archaeoteacup Um, there's a. 18:03.19 Andrew Jones Many of the balls have kind of knob these knobs on them. They're really not very good for. They're NotsSpherical they ah it would roll very badly. so um so I am and I can reject that that theory. 18:14.14 archaeoteacup Rye Of course. Yeah. 18:23.27 Andrew Jones And then there's I mean there's there's whole papers on the aerodynamics these objects and is ah an amazing paper in the proceeds. The society of antiquities of Scotland. Which looked at the aerodynamics of casting balls. But then then argues that basically they're throwing them up wolves or kind of any any animals attacking. 18:55.70 archaeoteacup But but just throwing them with their hand or because 1 thing I guess I could understand is with these the sort of grooves in between the knobs that maybe there's rope or string or something in there. But. 18:56.21 Andrew Jones Fox of sheep and yeah. 19:06.79 Andrew Jones Yeah, so um, so bowlla's one of the one of the interpretations and actually that goes back to John Evans the the 19:11.23 archaeoteacup That that's it Bolu Yes I. 19:22.94 Andrew Jones Kind of early researcher on on stone tools so that I mean that's not unreasonable but I still don't quite understand if if they're thrown if they're throwing these objects. 19:29.79 archaeoteacup Um. 19:41.17 Andrew Jones Animals y calve in so much detail. 19:42.22 archaeoteacup Especially it's not even like just you're just whittling away at a thing if you're saying it's really hard stone and they're using flint tools that bus be quite a lot of work now. 19:49.30 Andrew Jones Yeah, yeah, so I mean I think mine My provisional best interpretation at the moment is actually. 20:03.37 archaeoteacup So. 20:07.66 Andrew Jones It's the process of making them that's important and I've argued that what they're doing is effectively learning how to calfstone one of the thing again going back to this workshop in in Winchester. 20:08.40 archaeoteacup Are. 20:27.52 Andrew Jones 1 of the things we realized that was involved in making these things was all a kind of practices that you need to to calfstone so we started off by hammering. 20:42.97 archaeoteacup The. 20:46.66 Andrew Jones The hammering the balls to to shape them Sos You know, very kind of heavy pecking of of the balls would be needed and then by the end we're kind of carving them out So we. 21:02.60 archaeoteacup Um, moving. 21:04.96 Andrew Jones You've got a whole series of different things. You'd start off with polishing you're shaping hammering your packing and then you're polishing and those are two things that we find happening with stone tools in the nalithic. 21:13.83 archaeoteacup That is. 21:22.95 archaeoteacup So it's almost like a portfolio of techniques. 21:24.86 Andrew Jones And then yeah and I think they're best should least showing off you know, look look at what I can do hope that they're actually they're actually um that they're learning through making. 21:33.88 archaeoteacup Ah, are. 21:44.36 archaeoteacup Um. 21:44.43 Andrew Jones 1 of the most amazing kind of encounters we had when we were doing the making him art project and and with karfs and balls was visiting a small. Community museum in Glasgow in kind of outer edges of Glasgow and um, the people running the museum were x. 22:05.13 archaeoteacup Um. 22:20.40 archaeoteacup Okay. 22:20.79 Andrew Jones Stone cutters and I and the time I was talking about them as art and their like 80 times this is oh how can you call this? Um, and then then I start talking to them about. I thought was happening just that they were kind of making and that these were kind of like practice pieces to to show off how how they could make them and these guys just their eyes lit up and be. 22:46.61 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 22:55.75 Andrew Jones Instinctively knew what I was talking about because they they've been trained in exactly the same way to you know? So They'd be given a lump of stone and you know told shape it this way and you know. Do this before lunch. You know you've got to you've got to at least master this this process before lunch and they they just completely. Um, understood that that. 23:16.46 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 23:20.81 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 23:32.51 Andrew Jones People in prehistory could have virtually been working these objects to in order to kind of understand how to work stone and and you know the the kind of properties of stone. 23:44.71 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 23:51.70 Andrew Jones So that's my best interpretation at the moment. 1 of the things I will say though is that these are amazing objects and I don't think I've got to the bottom of them at all. So. People seem to been interested by this idea of them as things kind of in process things be things in the making but I don't think. You know it wouldn't surprise me if someone comes along and says actually the innovate their fishing weights or their loom weights or they you know something and now we can now we can work this out I don't think I've finally got to the bottom of them. And you know I'm probably going to keep studying them. They'll go back to them. Yay exactly. And. 24:51.23 archaeoteacup That's a good excuse to right? Well um I think ah we should probably stop there because I need to top up my tea. But for everyone listening Hopefully you can also. Top up your tea a little bit and we will be back very soon. 25:06.34 Andrew Jones Okay.