00:00.00 archaeoteacup Okay, check, it's working. Yeah, all good. So welcome back everyone I hope that the teacups are now full and the biscuit jar is emptier and tess. Of course we did already introduce you in the first section of this episode very briefly. But perhaps we can go into a little more detail now. 00:18.33 Tess A. 00:18.91 archaeoteacup Um, so I think actually what we did is that you are an independent researcher as opposed to being sort of affiliated with ah a University or a museum was this always the case. 00:28.89 Tess I am um yes I Guess Ah yeah, I'm not I'm not entirely sure how I ended up there. You know how to how do any of us end up anywhere. Um, but after I finish my Ph D When was that back in. 2004 I Then had my daughter in 2005? Um, and I carried on working for the prehistoric society which I think we'll talk about a bit later. Um, and then. When I started researching talks in the same way as when I started researching fortifications. It was just because I was enjoying it. Um and I was lucky enough to have the prehistoric society as an income and doing admin so it was more. You know not a lesser task. 01:08.23 archaeoteacup Ooh. 01:12.23 archaeoteacup E. 01:19.90 Tess But I wasn't using my brain in the same way. So I could do research as well. On top of that. Um, and then I started thinking about kind of formalizing things and maybe going into academia but then decided that actually it's quite nice staying as an independent researcher and when I look at. 01:22.59 archaeoteacup Are. 01:38.35 Tess But so many of my lovely colleagues in the U K are going through currently solidarity to all of them. Um, it just yeah, it just seemed an easier way of doing things. Um, but you've got to be quite strict with yourself. Definitely. 01:45.71 archaeoteacup Um. 01:48.46 archaeoteacup Who. 01:55.52 archaeoteacup I can imagine. Especially I mean I Only did it very briefly and I'm not sure I'd really have classified myself as an independent researcher. It was more I was trying to find a position and I couldn't so I just kept going because I enjoyed it. Um and wasn't getting unfortunately paid for anything but um, it's. I can imagine you have the extra freedom and the flexibility. But I suppose the the financial security shall we say is a little less than than this. 02:21.49 Tess Yeah, yeah I mean I'm the classic position of female archaeologists that um I mean I'm divorced now but it was my partner that was funding a lot of my lifestyle you know as is so sadly. Case for so many Archaeologists male and female that a partner who's got a proper in inverted Commons Job um ends up sorting out a lot of different things I mean I have luckily I mean I've always been self-employed because from being a prehistoric pottery specialist working with. 02:41.44 archaeoteacup Ah, yes. 02:52.21 Tess Prehistoric Society picking up bits of research actually paid research at things like the national archives and the British library and now doing this. We kind of get the occasional paid lectures bit of paid teaching bits and bobs that you can then plow into. 02:59.24 archaeoteacup Um, the. 03:10.36 Tess The next museum visit you want to do things like that. Um, but yet it's It's not a living. Ah. 03:13.88 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, unfortunate, well because I get a lot of questions um through my various channels. So asking you know how do you get into archaeology or like is archaeology a proper job indeed. Ah, always. 03:25.80 Tess Yeah. 03:28.39 archaeoteacup And so I thought it was really interesting indeed so far we've had on this show. We've had sort of crafters but also academics and so I thought it was interesting to have someone who's doing the research but from yeah, an independent standpoint. Um, so I was wondering if you could yeah perhaps elaborate a little on the the kind of advantages the disadvantages. What. What advice? Do you wish you had given yourself shall we say when you when you first decided to go this route. 03:52.00 Tess Yeah I mean I'm lucky obviously I'm older I'm I'm 52 now um it makes life easier because you're more established. You know my daughter's now seventeen I don't have those issues to deal with. She's kind of her only independent person. Really? um. 04:05.16 archaeoteacup Then. 04:09.23 Tess And as I say I've been lucky in that when I came through you could get a job in archaeology you know I've never been unemployed I've never earned a lot of money but I've never been unemployed. Um, the prehistoric society job is the kind of constant. 04:19.31 archaeoteacup Yeah. 04:27.00 Tess That has meant that my rent to all my mortgage has always been paid. Um, and as I say you can pick up bits and pieces in terms of academically I'm lucky in that working for the prehistoric society gives me library access at Ucl. 04:29.78 archaeoteacup Are. 04:46.54 Tess Which is the big thing that I think most independent researchers struggle with because obviously paywalls and things like that if you don't have library access. Um, the way we've tried to do it I firmly believe in open access 100% so 04:48.11 archaeoteacup Um I can imagine. Yeah. 05:06.10 Tess As we've talked about before the big book of talks. You will find everything on there. You don't have to pay for any of it. Um, we've tried to do at least 1 peer review paper a year so that that keeps us academically credible but we also publish. 05:10.58 archaeoteacup Perfect. 05:23.53 archaeoteacup Um, this. 05:25.81 Tess Various bits and pieces on our website. We've also independently peer reviewed um had a marvelous friend who acted as editor in inverted commas and then found 2 peer reviewers in inverted commas um, and it was actually a super process because both peer reviewers. 05:37.97 archaeoteacup Okay, who. 05:45.60 Tess Um, anonymized themselves very quickly and said if we're going to do this differently. Let's do it properly and we had some wonderful conversations about the paper and the paper which is on the grotesque talk from Snetishham was all the better for it. Um, but it is open access and it's up on our website. 05:49.13 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 05:56.73 archaeoteacup Yeah, which I. 06:03.69 Tess And anybody can download it read it exactly these people were peer reviewing for Journals. It's not that they're not qualified to be peer reviewers. Um, yeah I have fundamental issues about a lot of the way we do academia. 06:04.40 archaeoteacup Ah, and I mean that is that That's all the peer review is right is is to other people reading it? Yeah yeah, yeah. 06:21.30 Tess Because I'm seeing more and more there are people who yeah depends How high you are up the tree a lot of the time. Um, you know we've we've had papers in Pps but a lot of that's to do with the fact I've got doctor in front of my name. 06:21.23 archaeoteacup Um, the. 06:32.30 archaeoteacup Um, and and. 06:38.26 Tess I'm known within the community had I been an independent reviewer with an independent researcher with no background in inverted Commas Would we have been able to do what we do I don't know and I think that's quite sad. Um, yeah. 06:46.98 archaeoteacup Ah, and yeah. 06:54.85 archaeoteacup And indeed a lot of the the at least so I recently finished my well almost finished my ph Dc Ill need to defend. But um I did an article-based 1 so you had to publish 4 to 5 academic articles and a lot of them were open access which was great and also. 07:03.88 Tess Yeah, yeah. 07:11.83 archaeoteacup Ah, free to publish. Um, so you didn't have to pay anything to actually publish it which I was very appreciative of and didn't realize that that's not the norm until I then did the last 2 papers and both of them I had to pay to publish a ridiculous amount of money but also pay to make it open access. So. 07:12.52 Tess Yeah. 07:24.73 Tess Yeah, is yeah. 07:30.82 archaeoteacup I mean yeah for this full disclosure I'll say the amount I had to pay $2000 to publish a 36 page paper and then you have to pay the same amount on top of that which I think a lot of people don't realize when when they are complaining that things aren't open access as well. But also that is a really bad thing. 07:39.21 Tess No. 07:46.80 archaeoteacup I think well anyway I won't mention which journals it was. But yeah, yeah. 07:47.60 Tess Yeah, and also image rights I mean any artifact person who is publishing an artifact-based paper will tell you image rights kill more things than anything else. Um I mean that was part of the reason. 07:56.70 archaeoteacup Um, yeah now. 08:02.98 Tess We set up the big book of talks because we wanted to show particularly as the research we were doing initially was kind of seemed to be controversial because it disproved a lot of previous research that had been done. Um, we yeah. 08:13.31 archaeoteacup Um, ah exit. 08:19.12 Tess We wanted to show exactly why we were saying what we were saying and the only way you can do that with artifacts is with images and drawn images. Okay fine. They can show and they are wonderful. But you can always slightly adapt to draw image to make it look what you showed Where is this this a photograph. There's a photograph. Yeah, exactly. 08:23.17 archaeoteacup Yes, no. 08:31.18 archaeoteacup Exactly Yeah and especially if it's controversial Anyway, Yeah yeah. 08:39.50 Tess Um, so I mean for that grotesque talk paper that we produced I think it's got 40 images in it now. All of those of the british museum. All of those would have been at least £90 each by the time you've got 40 images you are looking at an awful lot of money. Um. 08:49.39 archaeoteacup Yes, the. 08:54.94 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 08:58.40 Tess Or again Journal publications. You can't have that number of images. Um, yeah, exactly So we found. It's really useful I I don't know we've yet to see. 09:00.65 archaeoteacup Yes, yeah, a lot of time all they have to be in black and white or the yeah, it's love. 09:13.59 Tess I Don't think we've been doing this long enough. We are starting to get cited now in various different things. Um, it'll be interesting to see whether people start citing I know we're on various University reading lists the website is but it will be interesting to see whether the website articles start getting cited I suspect. 09:24.90 archaeoteacup But okay. 09:32.80 Tess Won't because they're not officially peer reviewed Um, but in a way I don't care I don't I don't have a career to forge I don't have I would rather get the information out there and if we get the information out there people can judge whether we're telling the truth or not. 09:33.34 archaeoteacup But yeah, no. 09:49.43 archaeoteacup Yes, yeah. 09:51.58 Tess Have we provided the evidence so that's kind of the level of imac I've suddenly realized in my older years that we forget about the true meaning of education I Want to educate people in the in the widest sense whoever they are wherever they come from and I don't. 10:01.66 archaeoteacup This is this is. 10:08.90 archaeoteacup Um, yes. 10:11.40 Tess Think the traditional models of academia necessarily fit that. Yeah well exactly I mean we do. We do all sorts of things I mean you know I have a big Twitter following where I share information we do blogs. We do things for the. 10:13.33 archaeoteacup I I could not agree more I mean and that's one of the main reasons I started this podcast to be honest is because I thought. 10:26.93 archaeoteacup Um, hurt. 10:30.61 Tess We've done magazines. The British archaeology the Cba Magazine you know videos lectures all kinds of stuff. It's all on our website and hopefully there will be something for everyone Be they the kind of die hard academics who want the absolute evidence or members of the public who just want to know about. 10:32.58 archaeoteacup The. 10:42.46 archaeoteacup The. 10:48.78 archaeoteacup Yeah, well, but it's great that because I think a lot of the time you know if I'm looking up things just small things for the for these podcasts or for the little reels I do on Instagram or something I want to make sure that I have the correct information and a lot of the time then I do look at papers because I think okay well these are. 10:49.78 Tess Shiny things. Um. 11:01.65 Tess Yeah. 11:06.98 Tess Yeah. 11:07.56 archaeoteacup Academic peer reviewed papers. But then it's great when you do find a resource like this that is provided by people who you know are research you know like you say they don't have to be affiliated with the museum but it's sort of a difference between someone who's a you know, slight per potentialual potential Pseudo Archeologist who's you know exactly. 11:14.38 Tess Yeah, yeah, yeah. 11:22.90 Tess Yeah, exactly I watched a couple of videos on Youtube versus I have actually got the evidence and here it is so you can interrogate it yourself. Yeah yeah. 11:27.30 archaeoteacup Yeah, exactly. So yeah I think that that's a fantastic resource I'll definitely be putting the link to all of this in there in the show notes. So hopefully hopefully people will see it. Excellent Great resources. 11:35.31 Tess Thank you and there's a wonderful I added last year a further reading page so there is literally just a page of references for anyone. It wants to read about talks. 11:47.24 archaeoteacup Perfect. Oh that sounds good. Um, and you mentioned already the prehistoric society of course and I think that a lot of people both even within academia but also outside of Academia they know that these societies exist. But um, what? what are these societies I guess and. 12:03.28 Tess yes yeah yes yes I'm the membership secretary for the prehistoric society and I have been for 28 years so if I don't know about the prehistoric society. Um yet basically. 12:04.10 archaeoteacup And why why should people join them and what what's the yeah, but what. But whose. 12:17.20 Tess Fundamentally we are a learned society so we produce a journal the proceedings of the prehistoric society but we also do a lot of other things. Besides so we have a newsletter that comes out 3 times a year we run a lot of events lectures conferences. We also on our website have educational resources which will fit in with the england and wales national curriculum. But we've also got things that can be used for home learning. They can be used for adult learners. We've got signposts. Um. A 4 downloads for sites that you can go and visit around the country. We do a lot of different things we and we obviously have an active social media presence. Um, a lot of our lectures now are online because we realized how wonderful the possibilities of Zoom were. 13:10.96 archaeoteacup Yes. 13:13.38 Tess Um, and we found it's It's been so nice because there's so many people we've managed to connect with who either have caring responsibilities access issues financial issues and they can watch things online for free from all over the world as well. Um. 13:25.71 archaeoteacup The. 13:30.97 Tess So yes, we we do a lot and I'm very proud of the prehistoric society because we are constantly moving forward. Um. 13:36.80 archaeoteacup And do you have to be affiliated with anything in order to join. Do you have to be in an archeologist. Okay, perfect. 13:45.20 Tess Nope Anybody can join Nope anybody can join at all. Um, we have Obviously that's the other beauty of this because we have most of the professional prehistorians. Um. In the world as members. But we also have amateur archaeologists. We have students. We have people who have just got an interest in prehistory and we're trying and providing something for all of them. But if you come to our lectures you will see. 14:11.80 archaeoteacup Um. 14:15.52 Tess We you know we we do have because we were founded in one 35 we are the leading organization for prehistory and it means we can phone people up and say we would like a lecture on this or we would like you to do this that and the other. Um, so well worth it and it is not expensive either. 14:20.44 archaeoteacup Ah. 14:26.90 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, yeah, no did it's not I can't confirm I remember. 14:34.78 Tess Yes, which if you're an individual ordinary member. It's £45 but if you're retired. It's £35 and if you're a student. It's only £20 and that will give you all of our publications access to lectures. We also provide grants various different grants for students research projects. 14:49.99 archaeoteacup Yes, yeah. 14:52.60 Tess Museum collections, etc, Etc, etc and all of that includes postage and packing anywhere in the world so they go not a lot. Yes, yes. 14:58.92 archaeoteacup Ah yes I was lucky enough to get the I was lucky enough to get the the research fund back when I was ah in well in between studentships. So as I was I was still technically a student but I didn't have a job yet. Yeah. 15:11.54 Tess Yes, and again, that's that's another possibility for independent researchers you you have to be a member of the society to apply but you don't have to be in an institution um or anything else if you can make the case we will fund you. 15:16.25 archaeoteacup Then. 15:20.11 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, which I think a lot of people I know that a lot of for example, certainly my friends of of my kind of age and I mean I've just finished the Ph D and I did the kind of classic you know. 15:34.90 Tess Um, yeah. 15:35.85 archaeoteacup Undergrad Masters Ph D works a little bit in commercial. But now I'm sort of going I think a little more outside academic academia and there's a lot of people I know who wanted to continue in Academia but just indeed can't find the job and so I think it's really great that there's still these these communities that you can have because I mean to me at least that was. 15:46.25 Tess Yeah, yeah. 15:55.40 archaeoteacup 1 of the main pros of working in academia was that you have this network but I think that it's nice that there's these societies that still give you that network outside of. 15:57.68 Tess Yeah, yeah, and I think people are realizing now I mean the number of you know, very successful, very well-researched books coming out things like Becky Ragsykes kindred cat jarmons river kings you know, but I think people are seeing that academia is not the only way. 16:16.83 archaeoteacup Oh yeah. 16:25.68 archaeoteacup No, no definitely I think yeah I mean which I'm very happy for um now is a final thing because this was actually something that always pops up whenever I Google you it's your um. 16:27.98 Tess Fingers crossed. Yeah, exactly. 16:37.71 Tess Yeah, yeah. 16:40.86 archaeoteacup So and I remember seeing the book going. No surely. They're not surely. They're not chocolate. So apparently you make chocolate artifacts. 16:47.66 Tess And I do write chocolate artifacts yes, and it's the 1 thing I'll be at a conference and obviously I have quite a distinctive name and I'll suddenly notice somewhat reading my name badge and then the eyes come up and it's like you're the one who makes it yes, yes, I'm the one who makes the chocolate artifacts. Yeah I am I'm not entirely well what it was that Roland and I who I work with looking at at talks um is various escapes because at some point we want to make a talk a replica one because Roland deserve I should say is a museum standard Replica maker and he makes all kinds of gorgeous things. 17:17.66 archaeoteacup Okay. 17:24.73 archaeoteacup Oh beat fine. 17:27.20 Tess Um, and we were talking about how we would get them because this is how we got into talks was talking about how they were made and him saying I don't think they're made the way they say they are and me saying oh really and then going off and doing research and blah Blah blah. But 1 of the ideas that we had of how we were going to raise money to make a talk um roll suddenly said I know we'll make chocolate talks and sell them in the museum and then we can make some money and it's like okay so could you do this and it was like I don't know I've got no background in this whatsoever. Um. And it was thanks to I made a silly kind of wax copy of the terminal just when I was fiddling about at one point and then realized you can buy this food Grade Silicon Molding Putty which basically creates Molds like those um ice Cube trays that you get and various other things. 18:08.93 archaeoteacup The book. A. Yes, yeah. 18:21.94 Tess So I covered this wax mold in this silicon Putty cut it all off. Stuck it back together again and poured chocolate in it and taddar I had a talk terminal in chocolate and then it was kind of like when it's. 18:28.71 archaeoteacup Amazing. 18:33.96 Tess Chocolate I need to make it look more like and then discovered the wonderful world that is cake making ingredients where you can buy all sorts of paints that are all edible and gold sprays and goodness those or else um and then from there it kind of became a bit of a challenge that. 18:40.00 archaeoteacup Ah. 18:44.45 archaeoteacup Fair. 18:52.37 Tess Once I've made 1 thing obviously role being a Replica maker had a lot of things that I could cover in this siica molding. But but and the only roles I haveve ever been. There's no internal scaffolding. 18:58.79 archaeoteacup Right? yeah. 19:07.51 Tess And it's got to be 100% edible so all of the paint and everything the chocolate and then you start getting things like oh there's an ant lacomb a viking ant lacomb. That's very thin could I do that and so you try it and yeah, okay so most things I've only made once or twice. 19:22.27 archaeoteacup Ah. 19:26.85 Tess Um, yeah, and it's very much a hobby and usually by the time I finish making something I'm ah absolutely sick of chocolate because various people have said to me oh you should do it Commercially, it's like no no, it would destroy it absolutely destroy but it's certainly a talking point and also. 19:28.22 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, ah. 19:45.26 Tess Again I don't sound staffed but another educational thing that there's a lot of people who will kind of come for the chocolate and stay for the talk about talks. Yeah. 19:49.75 archaeoteacup Definitely yet. 19:55.64 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, yeah, no absolutely well and I mean I can imagine. Also it it does you you yourself will probably get more of an ah insight into different aspects of the artifacts as well. If you're having to think. 20:08.71 Tess Yeah, it's really interesting actually because the Netherer terminal which is this little gold detached terminal that I made in chocolate. Originally they were saying that these talks were cast so you know molded effectively like I was doing in chocolate. 20:11.31 archaeoteacup About them in chocolate fob. 20:25.74 archaeoteacup Brat. 20:27.33 Tess And I could never get it to work properly in chocolate. It kept having bubbles in certain places and sure enough these talks weren't actually cast and they give sheet gold and it is and there various things when I've been making them. But I've said to roll when I've made a chocolate one I'm went ah that was a real problem. 20:36.19 archaeoteacup Ah, so it's a research method methodology. 20:46.23 archaeoteacup Who Ah, big gold. Ah yeah. 20:46.43 Tess And he'll go Yeah I had that problem when I was casting it because this bit's too thin or this bit's too. You know so you do it bizarrely it. It is actually relevant. 20:58.57 archaeoteacup Ah, no I Just I know it's not as necessarily related to the rest of this episode but I just thought it was too interesting a hobby not to bring up something. 21:02.83 Tess Yeah, but yes, it's yeah yeah, it's some yeah as I say it's definitely the thing at conferences that you get remembered for. 21:13.53 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, well I Like you say it's ah it's a a form of outreach in itself as well. Right is sort of more approachable. 21:18.14 Tess It is. It is definitely and definitely there have been times with people where I mean the actual the Netherer terminal that I've got because we were lucky to be able to mold off a plaster cast copy of the terminal. So I actually have an exact copy in chocolate. Um. 21:32.87 archaeoteacup Ah, isaac. Ah. 21:35.52 Tess And that one you know you give lectures and you talk about it and it immediately breaks the ice. Um, if I'm ever a bit panicky about talking about something contentious. You kind of go here's a chocolate talk and people laugh and it's fine. It sounds. Okay, yeah I can do this now. 21:38.69 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 21:46.70 archaeoteacup Please like me don't bring me to Shreds made you chocolate? No, but no a very interesting hobb and it makes me want to try and thanks chocolate. 21:54.45 Tess Yeah, exactly yeah. 21:59.94 Tess Yeah, literally if you can get unfortunately the food grade stuff that I used to use. They've just stopped making so I'm not sure because I've tried various other ones and it doesn't work in the same way. But yeah, the basic principle is if you can cover it in Silicon Molding putty. 22:08.80 archaeoteacup Um, ah do. 22:16.48 archaeoteacup Yeah, getting it off your one go the up. 22:18.71 Tess And managed to get it off. That's half the challenge is then taking off the mold so that you can put it back together again and then just fill it with chocolate and you'll be amazed. It's not that difficult people seem to think oh my goodness. This woman has some amazing artistic talent. No. 22:32.10 archaeoteacup Well no, you need to you need to keep that going. Yeah, we'll cut that bit. It's fine. Yeah I'm yeah no I've got a lot of replicas here. So now I'm looking at them all going this. 22:36.31 Tess Yeah. 22:41.47 Tess No, do have a go. Yeah, the other thing that's wonderful is if you can get the kind of um, the ice cube trays and there's various things now for Resin molding that you can get all of those with working chocolate. 22:53.33 archaeoteacup Oh yeah, yeah, oh I know. 22:58.29 Tess And just have fun I used to just make tiles little square tiles of chocolate and then people would paint them like Medieval tiles and things like that. It's lovely. Yes, oh they are exquisite. Yes I know exactly who you mean. 23:04.48 archaeoteacup Someone does that I'm trying to remember who it is someone does biscuits and she makes them I can't remember what her name is but they're beautifully created and I think she creates some 4 museums sometimes as well. And yeah, yes, they're beautiful. They're very beautiful. 23:17.63 Tess Yes, yeah, and they're all handpainted I mean they are stunning now I know exactly who you mean that is true talent. 23:24.24 archaeoteacup Ah, it is is well. So yeah, yours your pieces look fantastic I Remember you sharing some pictures and be going back stop chocolate and then I was like oh wait it is well. 23:32.97 Tess Yeah I Actually once I had um, an Armorcan ax that I'd made for a friend and we were a conference. Um and I gave it to her and I got it all wrapped up in greaseproof paper and I gave it to her. She's just oh my goodness she trotted over to show. Ah, curator a prehistoric curator. It's like yeah yeah, it's an axe. So what? No no, no look look at it give but it's an axe. So what? no smell it? Oh so it it totally fold a curator. So yes, yeah, absolutely. 24:05.22 archaeoteacup Ah, excellent. That's the that's the test right? Well um I think that marks the end of our T break today. So you've got a lot of exciting secret projects to be getting on with so I look forward to hearing about them. 24:09.12 Tess Ah. 24:16.18 Tess Yes, yes. 24:20.35 archaeoteacup But thank you so much for joining me today tess and sharing about talks but also about your your experience as an independent researcher I very much appreciate you taking the time today. Yeah, and if anyone wants to find out more about tess's work. Of course we'll be sharing the link to the great book of ah talks. 24:28.60 Tess Well thank you for having me. It's been great. 24:38.91 archaeoteacup Um, and check the show notes on the podcast homepage I'll try to share as many things as possible for the prehistoric society etc as well. So hope that everyone enjoyed our journey today. See you next month for another episode of T break time travel.