00:01.56 archaeoteacup Checking It's working seems to be good. So welcome back. So now we know a little bit more about the sort of basic knowledge of talks but perhaps tess you could tell us even more about it as you are an expert on the topic as amongst many other topics. It sounds like but so. 00:15.10 Tess Um. 00:17.47 archaeoteacup We spoke about it a little bit. Um briefly you mentioned gold and silver. But so what kinds of material were torques made from was it always these precious metals. 00:27.26 Tess I mean generally gold silver and bronze um, but there are there's a talk from spetisbury down in dorset on the South Coast which is actually iron and there's one that came up from Northampton. Ah. Great Lawton I think is the site that was actually led um and of course all we have is the non-organics so there's possibility because a lot of the twists. Julia Farley has talked about this curator at the british museum. 00:44.20 archaeoteacup Oh wow. 00:53.96 archaeoteacup Ah. 01:01.98 Tess Are we are a lot of these twists based on fabric um on yarn things like that. So are we missing were there leather talks I don't know there is 0 evidence but it might it might just be there. 01:09.88 archaeoteacup Ah, oh. 01:18.55 archaeoteacup That's really interesting now I'm trying to think so yeah because you have also those sort of twisted leather. Well, that's so sort of Platid leather. 01:24.76 Tess Yeah, exactly they would they would be perfectly makeable out of leather particularly if you've got if you're stiffening your leather and these people know how to make saddles they you know they know how to work different things so it is possible. 01:28.98 archaeoteacup M. 01:36.89 archaeoteacup Um, okay, and as do you know if any research has been has been done experimental stuff. 01:45.31 Tess No no I've never seen anything like that. Um and the problem that we have of course is these talks seem to be very symbolic so and they do just occur in hordes. 01:53.53 archaeoteacup Of her. 01:59.83 Tess And the majority of hordes are found bymet detectors and things like that. So unless you could find someone on a waterlogged site on the ice anaerobic conditions I'm not sure we'd ever know. 02:02.85 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 02:09.40 archaeoteacup Um, and indeed so that was actually another question I had so from what I from my very very brief shallow quick looking up of talks. It. It seemed that indeed most of them had been found in hordes so there hasn't been any kind of. Ah, found just in in general settlement types or anything or just very rare Amazing! Amazing. That's really interesting. 02:30.42 Tess Ah, yet they haven't been this is this is the bane of my existence that um the majority. Yeah I think we've got from this country we have got about 400 02:46.11 archaeoteacup The. 02:46.65 Tess Talks represented from the yeah uk now of those about 300 and actually be more it be about 450 from the whole of the Uk. And of those we've got about 300 represented from snatishham so that's not necessarily complete talks that could be pieces of wire that we can identify as unique to a certain talk um of the snatishham 300 only about 60 of them are complete. 03:13.45 archaeoteacup Okay. 03:16.60 Tess Um, when you look at the rest of the country. We've only got about 90 talks represented outside of sneishham and only about 30 of those are complete. We're very much skewed towards what's going on at Snareticham but unfortunately sneishham still hasn't been published. It's due out. 03:23.14 archaeoteacup Okay. 03:28.94 archaeoteacup Yeah. 03:34.65 archaeoteacup Oh ah. 03:36.20 Tess Any time now. But the majority of other talks that we've got are either antiquarian fines so they were dug up Nineteenth century early twentieth century often by shepherd boys shepherd boys seem to be able to find talks better than anybody else. Um. And unfortunately a lot of them. They tended to keep the nice ones and the rest of the hoard went to goldsmiths to be melted down the other problem that we've got recently is that most of them are detected finds and although some of the sites of detection have been examined. 03:56.65 archaeoteacup Ah. 03:58.88 archaeoteacup This is. 04:12.96 Tess Um, um, with Blair Drummond actually in Scotland we have actually got talks associated with a site phrase the hunter dug it um and there does seem to be a building that the horards were associated with this time we we don't we have no other contextual information. 04:29.98 archaeoteacup Okay. 04:32.94 Tess You get coins. So we've got coins at's nest. Um, but of course all of those are deposition dates rather than making dates and we know that these talks are hanging around sometimes for a couple of hundred years before they go in the ground so it is very tricky. 04:38.24 archaeoteacup The. 04:45.31 archaeoteacup Interesting. Yeah, probably just quickly for those who are listening in who don't know what a hoard is perhaps you could just and Vida very quick. 04:57.51 Tess Yeah I mean it's the traditional view I I probably shouldn't use the word hoard I should probably talk about deposition because Hoard is a very loaded term. Um, but traditionally horards were always seen as you know in the days of invasion and. 05:03.40 archaeoteacup Yeah. 05:13.80 Tess Everything being seen as invasion and trouble and but ah hordes were very much seen as the panicking locals burying all their goodies before running away and then being murdered and never coming back to collect them. Um, whereas nowadays we tend to understand. 05:22.80 archaeoteacup And. 05:30.46 Tess That although there are a few horards that are like that the majority of hoards seem to be kind of I'm going to use the word ritual. Yeah I don't have a problem with ritual the way you get dressed in the morning is ritual. You know we put our socks on first or or whatever else. 05:37.63 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 05:44.87 archaeoteacup That's true. That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very true. 05:49.75 Tess Um, but they are definitely associated with ceremony with ah with things that we can't explain readily they they don't have a practical inverted commas purpose. Um, and in the case of talks. 06:03.70 archaeoteacup Nothing. Ah. 06:07.63 Tess As I say snatishham is this ridiculous anomaly of a huge number of talks which all went in the ground we think very very rapidly potentially within a couple of weeks even um 06:13.45 archaeoteacup Moved. 06:20.47 archaeoteacup Okay, ah. 06:23.47 Tess If you want to know more about this. There's a lot. We have a website called the big book of talks and you can go read. Everything's open access on there and you can go and read all about it. Um, but outside of snedishham the normal picture is kind of 3 or 4 06:28.88 archaeoteacup I As perfect I'll provide the link in the show notes anyone who wants to read. 06:41.71 Tess Talks being buried in a discreet little group. They're usually away from settlements. They're quite often on raised ground or slopes. Um, yeah, it's offerings I think my feeling is that. 06:55.15 archaeoteacup Okay. 06:59.89 Tess Yeah, my feeling is a lot of them are to do with offerings against the Romans coming. It's almost like the the talk is so symbolic of the iron age. 07:02.62 archaeoteacup Um, ah, interesting and do you know I mean obviously I may focus more on on UKBritish ah talks or or that those aspects but do you know if it's similar in. 07:16.46 Tess Um, yeah. 07:18.65 archaeoteacup Ah, the play are talks found in other in other places for example in Europe. 07:22.46 Tess Yeah, they are they I mean ah all across Europe you find talks of some form or another um the yeah uk we seem to like them a lot more but on the other hand we also have a lot more detecting going on so there is. 07:28.37 archaeoteacup Um. 07:34.11 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 07:37.77 archaeoteacup And right. 07:38.64 Tess Recovery bias going on um particularly in the Uk we have forms that are very specific to hear so the kind of ring terminal talks which can either be just simple rings or these big expanded kind of donnuts shapes like the great talk. 07:53.72 archaeoteacup Okay, oh. 07:57.58 Tess They are very british very yeah Uk um, whereas if you look in France and Germany they tend to do different things like I say you have the kind of complete circle or you have different designs I mean in Spain in Iberia they have um. These almost kind of teardrop shaped terminals or these strange kind of um Apple core shapes. But again similar similar theme. You know two terminals on something. 08:24.97 archaeoteacup Oh yeah, um. 08:31.86 Tess But the specific design of it seems to be quite unique to whichever area of Europe you're in. It's like all things iron age they kind of have a general theme but then regionally and locally. They go off and do their own thing. 08:34.82 archaeoteacup Oh interesting. That's good to know and but yeah, yeah, interesting. Yeah that which I mean I guess similar today as well. We know. 08:49.93 Tess Yeah, exactly exactly exactly. 08:52.60 archaeoteacup In those respects and do you know if they're also found in in hordes or in shall we say ritual deposition content. Okay, yeah. 08:59.71 Tess No, there are horards definitely um I mean things like the catine on hode with that huge number of coins from Germany also has a lot of talks. Um, there's the erst field hoard the vald al gesheim it. Yeah. 09:08.90 archaeoteacup Um, interesting. 09:17.29 Tess Similar similar themes again, but not necessarily the same reasons I don't think. 09:23.11 archaeoteacup That's so fascinating though because it's I I mean I'm sure there are plenty but just that's the first time I'm hearing of ah artifact that has only been found in these kind of de depositions because generally it's sort of oh there. Mainly found. But then you have a few scattered here or you know it's half and half or something so that is very. 09:37.34 Tess Mean yeah, and also Europe they have the tradition of because earlier they tend to put talks in graves so like the vix um talk which if you look it up is. 09:49.63 archaeoteacup Um. 09:52.24 Tess Absolutely one of the most stunning pieces of gold work and that's actually within a grave whereas over here. We dare. They never put them in grave it just doesn't happen. Um, so it's almost like you've again, you've got changing traditions going on. Um. 09:54.19 archaeoteacup Oop. 10:01.36 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 10:10.52 archaeoteacup Um, interesting. 10:11.34 Tess Yeah, it's it's fascinating. But I just wish we could find some talks with some really solid dating evidence that would help me immensely. 10:20.19 archaeoteacup Which because indeed it seems you sort of mentioning iron agent from what I've seen in sort of popular culture talks are generally associated with the sort of celtic I Hate to use that for that word but celtic cultures Shall we say um and that sort of you would you would. 10:27.89 Tess Um, yes, yeah yeah. 10:35.57 archaeoteacup Agree with that situation because I yeah. 10:38.26 Tess Yeah, absolutely um I mean you've you've got the complication that of course we have the romans over here in the U K but in places like scandinavia they don't so the the long iron age. 10:48.18 archaeoteacup Um, yes. 10:52.40 Tess What would we would be talking about early medieval. They're still talking about Id so it's all a bit oh dates. Yeah yeah, but. 10:56.86 archaeoteacup Ah, interesting because indeed what I another question I wanted to ask because when I was looking it up like I said a lot of things came up about viking talks and I feel like indeed when you look up replicas of things to get I quite enjoy gathering Replicas So I have one. 11:05.43 Tess Yes. 11:12.99 archaeoteacup 1 of the Apple call ones from the iberian nerve peninsa let the there were a lot of viking references made so is that another? yes so many but is that. 11:14.31 Tess Yes, yes, yes, there's lots of things with wolves as terminals and yeah I'm not sure those were ever viking? Yeah yeah I mean they have they definitely have neck rings. 11:32.97 archaeoteacup Oh. 11:33.70 Tess Um, obviously this isn't my period so much so you know, um, but from what I've seen I've been doing a bit of research on various things recently that you have that they're more to do with bullion and things like that that the vikings have this whole thing of giving rings. Um, and these rings are these kind of neck rings and arm rings which are very controlled weights. Um, but yeah, there's an interesting bit of research I can't say anything about it now but watch this space in a couple of months because it could get fun. Ah. 11:59.12 archaeoteacup Um, are. 12:05.77 archaeoteacup Ah, interesting. That's actually funny story that was one of the reasons that I first got into artifact analysis as a specialization was because I um did a ah viking. Ah archeology course. And aberdeen uni my undergraduate alma mater with Karen Mille and we were talking about these this. What what they called silver yeah silver bully and I guess which is is just like yeah a ring with lots of other bits of silver attached to it that seemingly. 12:22.61 Tess Yes. 12:30.89 Tess Yeah. 12:37.56 archaeoteacup The objects themselves aren't what's important. It's the weight of the silver and I found that so fascinating. So that's what ah. 12:41.72 Tess Yeah, and also now they're starting to recognize as well as I say I've been reading a lot about this because it was always assumed. It was silver whereas they're now recognizing that actually the vikings were using gold as well and they seemed to be treating it similarly and differently. So. 12:46.20 archaeoteacup Are. 12:55.90 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 13:01.72 Tess Although it had a kind of bullion wealth. It may also have had an artistic creative value as well. Um, yeah, fascinating. But like I say watch this space in a few months yeah 13:04.79 archaeoteacup Hither. 13:10.50 archaeoteacup Interesting. Ah oh I look forward to hearing about whatever it is that? Yeah well I'll definitely have all your information in the show notes. So people can keep checking off on you and see what's covered out very curious. Interesting. 13:22.57 Tess Um, yeah. 13:25.57 archaeoteacup And but they do only then Emerge. Um because I mean you mentioned that there was 1 or 2 that were made from sort of iron but the rest were from Silver and gold when I mean Gosh I should know this I'm a Prehistorian but I never did metal. Um, when does that start to be used more regularly can it can you already see them in the Bronze age sort Of. Ah, emerging as a thing. 13:45.60 Tess Yeah I mean the Bronze age you've got um because again, you've got these neck rings. So you've got lunola those kind of crescent Moons shaped flat um neck rings Breastplates Whatever they are yeah. 13:56.24 archaeoteacup Ah, yes, the sort of that look like a collar almost. Ah yeah. 14:00.15 Tess Yeah, and then you also get the Gorgeettes which are more elaborate but you've also got within the bronze age these kind of twisted what they actually do is they get um if you think of it in cross section. It looks like a cross piece of wire and then if you twist that you get these kind of flanged. 14:12.27 archaeoteacup The front. 14:18.49 archaeoteacup Oh and we'll have to look this out. 14:19.97 Tess It's very cleverly done. Um and it looks if you go and look up Bronze age talk and then they have these kind of very simple long terminals but some of these can be over a meter long and no one's quite sure because they quite often coil them up for burial again in hordes. Um. 14:35.46 archaeoteacup Um, a Wow Um, ah. 14:39.58 Tess But are they how are they being worn because ah over a meter long. They're too big for a neck. Maybe there to go around a stomach I've seen people suggest they may be actually for pregnant women. Um, who knows yeah yeah, um, but there's. 14:43.57 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 14:50.86 archaeoteacup Ah God that will be uncomfortable, but. 14:59.10 Tess There's definitely you know we've we've got gold being used quite a lot and it's very pure. Very good quality stuff. Um, going right up to the late bronze age. But then there's kind of a gap and it seems that I don't tend to believe this because at the moment. Since we've been doing talks every single find that comes up changes the picture. So just about every couple of years. It goes back 100 years as something else appears. 15:22.74 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 15:27.95 archaeoteacup Ah, okay. 15:30.28 Tess Um, the last time this happened was in 2016 where the leak frith hoard came up and suddenly the whole dating for talks went back one hundred and fifty years um so it is possible. It's it's not a real gap. My feeling is the craft that they're showing. 15:36.88 archaeoteacup Again. 15:48.55 Tess Suggests that they've been doing it for a bit longer that when we see it. It's already a very welldeveloped craft. 15:52.94 archaeoteacup Because I indeed I was going to ask because surely yeah, whether whether you see you know random twisted bits of metal kind of in in earlier context. But I suppose they wouldn't necessarily have been identified as something to do with talks from from earlier periods. 16:07.96 Tess No I mean and there's all sorts of odd things. There's something called ribbon talks which you get a very plain simple form of in the bronze age. But then that reappears potentially from about 300 bc onwards as this very elaborate. But unless you look very carefully. They look quite similar so have the people making the iron age ribbon talk seen the earlier ones because they all seem to be occurring in Scotland and Ireland and Wales. So yeah, is it a continuation that we haven't recognized. 16:44.16 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah notice. 16:45.48 Tess Kind of middle bit yet or is it that someone has gone back and found something or seen something and gone. Ah I know I can do with that. 16:52.45 archaeoteacup Hu yeah and I guess that's also it's something really interesting. The fact that you said they're sort of similar. It's similar enough but slightly different styles whether it was something that just kind of naturally happened you know everywhere or was was taken. 17:03.36 Tess yeah yeah I mean we work with a lot of goldsmiths and goldsmiths like to play around with ideas. Um and they would look at some person that at 1 in Goldsmith's work and kind of take something from it and then make something of themselves about it. Um. 17:19.90 archaeoteacup I. 17:23.30 Tess It doesn't surprise I mean we forget we think of people in the past as being these kind of I don't know nameless faceless Characterless people but crafts people I think have always been Craftspeople. You know to. To develop these incredible skills and ideas and designs and creativity means you've got to. We actually wrote a paper working with some goldsmiths. And they were saying you need to be talking to people. You need to be seeing other people's Work. You can't just do this in Isolation. So Yeah I I Like to think they're all kind of because I think it is a very um, skilled craft. 17:53.68 archaeoteacup So. 18:04.70 archaeoteacup Yeah, no definitely I mean Gosh just looking at some of these pieces I'm thinking Wow That's ah. 18:07.37 Tess Yeah I mean we we've worked with a team of about 10 goldsmiths and some of the goldsmiths we'd worked with are quite old now and they were trained under the apprentices. Apprentice. System where they were using less machines things were but all being done by hand and they looked at the talks and said yeah I could do that wouldn't be a problem some of the younger goldsmiths who hadn't had so much of the traditional training were saying duda about that and. 18:35.71 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 18:39.77 Tess There were some other people who said now really I really wouldn't feel confident about doing this. Um I mean it really is a high end craft. You would have to know what you were doing but of course the other aspect of this is It's likely that they were starting training very very early. Um. 18:57.40 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 18:58.99 Tess There's a wonderful image by Tom Bjorkland who does those fantastic kind of portraits of people in prehistory and it's of a woman who's working bronze and around her are her little children and I'm sure I mean my my dad was an incredible craft. Person he was a carpenter and used to make all kinds of things guitars and whatever and all the while I was little I was kind of hanging around the garage when he was working and it it drip drip drips into you, you kind of start watching and learning and watching and learning and it's not necessarily that you're being trained as such. 19:28.29 archaeoteacup And. 19:38.40 Tess But from a very young age this was part of life I'm sure and then as they get older and by 6 or 7 kids are quite capable of doing quite complex things. So potentially we've got people that are trained hugely longer than they are now. 19:46.74 archaeoteacup No. 19:52.87 archaeoteacup Yeah, but do you think indeed it was sort of a so like a training you sort of specialized in making talks or was it general Jewelers or was it just everyone like anyone could twist some wires together like you say. 20:06.54 Tess Yeah I I mean it is very specialized and this is a problem as well because we tend to in archaeology talk about metal workers and metalwork can involve so much that the skill of a blacksmith working Iron. Is completely different. The workshop is different. You need Fire. You need noise. You need big tools. You don't actually need light because you need to be able to see the changing color of things If you're talking about casting so casting Bronze and things like that you're talking again. Different skill set. 20:37.90 archaeoteacup Um. 20:40.78 archaeoteacup Yeah. 20:44.18 Tess And then once you get onto Bronze sheet work where you're actually hammering things you've got to know about the metal very specifically how it's going to behave it all starts to become different and then gold is the extra step on from that. Um. 20:56.71 archaeoteacup Earth. 21:02.11 Tess And then in the later period Silver but we tend to lump metal workers in together but their skills and where they work and what we're going to see in the archaeological record is very very different I mean for gold my feeling is they probably. Were trained in working Bronze sheep. We have various similarities between thicknesses and things like thicknesses of the metal and things like that. Um, but I don't think there were that many goldsmiths around I mean there are a lot of Bronze workers because if you're thinking about villages or communities. 21:26.57 archaeoteacup Um, is it. 21:38.99 Tess You've got tools. You've got axes. You've got all sorts of things chisels and they need sharpening. They need remaking casting. That's a very local level I'm sure every community had 1 but with gold there's not that much gold around. So. 21:44.31 archaeoteacup That. 21:58.70 Tess And learning to to work it the way they do they have to have been working with it quite often I think yeah and I think also they are because gold is about 1 material that doesn't tarnish. 22:02.17 archaeoteacup Okay, so really was a precious metal. Yeah. 22:13.85 Tess It's very ductile. It does all kinds of weird things. It's like butter when you work it. It's It's beautiful material. Um, and I think these guys would have been seen as separate or something special or and also who are they working for. Are you having people coming to them or are they traveling. 22:15.46 archaeoteacup Listen. 22:29.81 archaeoteacup M. 22:32.93 Tess Is the gold moving are the crosspeople moving again all answers. We I think craftspeople are moving because I think then that um fits in with the thing of them seeing lots of other people's work. 22:42.55 archaeoteacup Yeah, interested. 22:47.37 Tess And that could well explain why in Europe we have kind of similar but different things going on. 22:49.83 archaeoteacup Yeah, because there's sort of a limit to how far you will travel maybe but you travel enough to meet someone else who's traveled far and then it's. 22:56.46 Tess Yeah, and also when you read I mean if you look at the account of Pytheus or you look at what the romans were up to once they come to the Uk in 55 Bc they are constantly talking about travel. You know they are traveling backwards and forwards from rome the whole time. 23:08.33 archaeoteacup The. 23:15.70 Tess There I mean Pytheus is off all over the place and I don't see there's any problem with goldsmiths doing that as well. Um, it would explain a lot of the things that are happening where you've got these kind of ideas being picked up. Yeah. 23:19.25 archaeoteacup Yeah huh. 23:26.87 archaeoteacup In different places and you mentioned earlier about you know that it's not necessarily men doing it and he talked about the the depiction of a woman working Bronze and her children there. So this is I guess also something we don't know is is ah. 23:36.72 Tess Um, yeah. 23:42.95 Tess No I mean we we work with female goldsmiths as well who are as capable of making these um and ah my feeling is you've got I mean the apprenticeship systems in this country starts at about 1300 I think but there's always been. 23:46.15 archaeoteacup The vote. 23:57.36 archaeoteacup Um. 24:00.17 Tess Ways of passing on craft and that has to be shown. You know you could You can't kind of draw it or watch a video or whatever like you can do now you've got to actually sit with somebody who is making something who says right? This is what you do no, don't do it like that like this blah blah blah and and. 24:05.97 archaeoteacup The yeah. 24:18.81 Tess If we're thinking about that traditionally apprentices have gone from father to son or down the male line but like I say that the only records we've got are from about 1300 onwards I think or 1100 onwards um but we do have female goldsmiths. 24:26.51 archaeoteacup Um. 24:31.00 archaeoteacup Ah. 24:37.13 Tess Recorded in London in the early medieval period. Um, and also I mean my my family line is quite quite. Ah I've kind of destined to do this because my family were all hugodo goldsmiths and came over. Yeah I know came over in. 24:47.43 archaeoteacup Oh there you go. It's fate. 24:55.15 Tess The early seventeen hundreds and then in a direct line from 1722 I think it is and that's just as far as we know when they came over. They were probably doing this for years before in France um, direct line from that period to my great grandfather. 36 and the line only broke because he died early. All of them were goldsmiths father to son father to son father son and diamond sets. So that's kind of 300 years I don't think it's inconceivable that in prehistory we were looking at a similar thing. 25:20.95 archaeoteacup Wow! yeah. 25:33.98 Tess And the logical kind of it would have been within families or groups you know, connected groups. So the child would learn from the adult. The logical thing of that it is. 25:45.30 archaeoteacup Um. 25:52.10 Tess Potentially families families of goldsmiths in the same way that you have trades now you had trades before and if you've got that scenario if you had a girl I don't think you're gonna yeah oh no, you can't you can't make these yeah. 25:55.34 archaeoteacup Yeah. 26:03.47 archaeoteacup Yeah, you're going to say oh well we finished now. 26:11.58 Tess Um, because it would effectively kill off your 9 if you do that and you've got all these hundred years of experience and knowledge and because that's all held by people. It's not held in books at that point so you. 26:13.61 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, ah. 26:22.92 archaeoteacup Yes, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and like you say it makes sense if you're just if that's what you see on a day to day you know from your father or mother or none. 26:30.90 Tess Yeah, and I did I yeah and particularly also the association early on and then even in the later period because you know they talk about Budica wearing the gold necklace. There is an association with women and gold I. 26:41.32 archaeoteacup This is is it? yeah. 26:49.49 Tess There's nothing to say that they were women but there is equally absolutely nothing to say that they weren't but yeah, ah. 26:53.77 archaeoteacup Oh I think yes, that's a good, a good concluding sentence. Um I think we're going to have another quick break now. So that people listening can have an opportunity to top up their tea but we will be back soon.