00:00.00 archaeoteacup Okay, hopefully that's working yep looks good. Okay, hello and welcome to episode 14 of t break time travel I am your host Matilda Zeb Brecht and today I am s savoring a new tea actually was given to me last week and it's a sort of herbly greeny. Minty lavenderry one if I list all the ingredients. It'll just take us forever so I won't go in that and joining me on my tea break today is Dr Tess mackling and are you also on tea today earth that's my yeah. 00:24.98 Tess I Have to admit I'm on coffee but I love the sound of your tea I think that sounds wonderful. 00:34.80 archaeoteacup It's one of those I mean why have just aor standard tea when you could have one that has 20 different ingredients in it right? You know? ah and are you ah a sort of hard black coffee in the morning kind of drinker or ah, a latte or a. 00:36.90 Tess Exactly I have a cupboard full of them. Yeah. 00:47.73 Tess And no, it's It's just an instant a lot of the time or or proper coffee if I can be bothered making it. But yes I'm I'm quite lazy. So ah. 00:53.67 archaeoteacup Fair enough fair enough I admit now that we've had our second child. There are some more coffees being drunk in the in the teac crap time even though neither of us drink coffee. We only have coffee for guests. But there's been a few bodies where we've gone should we have a coffee. Yeah, let's have a cup. 00:59.12 Tess yes yes I remember it well I am feeling your pain. Yeah yet. Yeah, that will get me through today. Yeah. 01:12.63 archaeoteacup Just laid it with sugar exactly but tea today tea today. Perfect well thank you so much for joining me today. Um, and I have sort of the standard questions that I ask all my guests so that we can get to know them and of course the first one is how did you first get involved in in archaeology and. We'll go into your sort of specialization a bit later but but in terms of sort of archeology in general. What first piqued your interest. 01:35.71 Tess Yeah, and I realized suddenly I've been doing archaeology in some form or another for 40 years which makes you sound terribly old something like that. Yes, um, but yeah I think. 01:43.80 archaeoteacup Ah, very experienced wise and experienced. 01:50.35 Tess I mean my mom and dad were always into history so we did lots of museums and stuff when I was a kid when I was very small. Um and then I had a wonderful primary school teacher Mr Colgate um and he used to take us around I lived in a little village in Sussex and he used to take us round. On these little walks saying this is where the poor house was that there was a girl called so-and-so so who lived here and people used to walk all the way to here to go mine flint and everything and it absolutely fascinated me and then you do that thing that so many of us do that you get into fossils. Um, and then when I was about. 12 um I got hold of I wasn't actually a member of the young archaeologists club but I got hold of 1 of their newsletters from somewhere and there was a dig advertised in Sussex. So I went off to this dig um, sliced my finger on ah on a lovely flint flake. The first day there. 02:43.63 archaeoteacup Oh oh. 02:47.70 Tess Ended up in a hospital with stitches and and then went back. Ah, absolutely the blood sacrifice. The Scar on my finger that I have to this day. Um and yet from that point onwards I was just basically. 02:50.30 archaeoteacup Oh God Ah you played you paid the blood you know tall it was yeah. 03:06.10 Tess Just loved it. I can't um I've always someone who's like being outside, you obviously get to meet loads of people. This was back in the day when kids could go and volunteer on site I mean understandably now there are health and safety implications that we didn't really pay attention to back then? Sadly um. But yeah, started working most of my holidays volunteering went to University Ucl got an archaeology degree started working as a field archaeologist went into being a prehistoric pottery specialist then ended up in the seventeenth century caribbean looking at fortifications. 03:41.61 archaeoteacup Oh wow. 03:44.62 Tess Um, and now I'm back in the iron age looking at gold. So yeah I've kind of always done it. It's in my blood I think. 03:51.57 archaeoteacup Yeah I'm curious. You've mentioned so you started with pottery and then went to fortifications was there What? what? what? What linked? How how did you get on? Yeah, okay. 04:01.25 Tess There is actually a link strangely enough. Um Dr. Elaine Morris who's a fantastic pottery specialist down in Southampton. Um. Has connections to the island of nevis in the caribbean and asked me because literally I was living in London at the time close to the british library if I wouldn't mind going and doing a bit of archival research for her. So I said yeah fine, where's Nevis. Not a clue little island in the caribbean. Ah, when it's a seventeenth century fortification note no idea about them either. Um and went did this bit of research and discovered that not only was there one fortification out in the caribbean but there were actually 30 that nobody knew about these little kind of coastal batteries and again. 04:46.52 archaeoteacup Um. 04:47.63 Tess Bit like how we going to talks kind of found a research problem thought oh that's really interesting and just carried on researching it and then someone said to be old because we started with with the research project out there started going out there a couple of times a year to dig these things and someone said you realize you've probably got enough to do a ph d so. I ended up doing a ph d so yes, it's yes I think a friend called it a mosaic archaeology career I think that just about sums it up. 05:13.48 archaeoteacup Well, but I think that's fantastic. So I have recently been to a wedding and where I was the only archeologist there and of course everyone saying you know the the little small talk and saying oh so what? do do you know tonight that oh well I'm an archaeologist and it's inevitably the whole all right? So which culture do you specialize in or you know which region do you specialize in. 05:22.32 Tess Yes, yeah. 05:28.62 Tess Yeah, yeah. 05:32.82 archaeoteacup And I mean I'm sort of similar I've been all over the place in all my research and it's yeah I think it's always great to hear that people are indeed jumping around because that's the whole point right? Archeology I don't know I always say at least archeology is not a topic. It's a frame of mind because it's sort of more about how you approach a situation. 05:37.62 Tess Yeah. 05:45.57 Tess Yeah, definitely definitely and ah I know so many archaeologists that are similar I mean even ones that are working in a particular field. Most people have got an interest in something else outside of work. Um, and like you say it all informs. You know we get so kind of stuck in our period bunkers. Don't we if I'm a bronze age person or I'm a so-and-so so um, when none of that actually means anything you know they weren't walking around in the bronze age thinking right? three p m on Tuesday we're in the iron age. That's it now. 06:05.41 archaeoteacup Down. 06:20.18 Tess Abandon everything we had before. So no I think it's good it. It's yeah it helps it helps us be a bit more broad I Think if we've got lots of different interests. 06:31.70 archaeoteacup Definitely no I can't agree more well and ah I'll I'll talk to you about this later a bit actually in the in the third section because I think they'll be ah, interesting to go into into more detail but ah second question of course as this is teabreak time travel. We are traveling back in time. But if you could travel back in time. Um. 06:36.23 Tess Yeah. 06:47.40 archaeoteacup Ah, especially as you have such a wide range of interests. Um, where would you go and why? ah. 06:52.93 Tess I Would go back to the iron age and I would go back to a gold workshop wherever that might be and that would be half of it landing up somewhere and going. Oh that's where you were making these things. Um, yeah and I I would love to see. 07:10.60 archaeoteacup So. 07:10.53 Tess Who was making what how many of them there were whether there were women involved I'm convinced there probably were women involved. Um yeah, the tools they were using particularly how they were managing to do without blow torches. That's what I would. 07:19.89 archaeoteacup Ah. 07:28.66 Tess That's what I would love to know be a fly on a wall in an iron age Gold workshop. 07:34.87 archaeoteacup I admit and we we'll probably get into this later but I have absolutely no idea how gold has worked so I'm very curious indeed to hear ah more ah from your experience on that and to get a little bit more information. 07:39.21 Tess Um, yeah, yeah. 07:45.30 archaeoteacup But excellent. Yeah, no, that's ah, that's that's absolutely fair enough I Love indeed how I've I think I've said this on every episode but every single guest I've said no one's ever said like oh I want to go back to this coronation of this King or you know something like that. It's always I want to go to small workshop or a tiny hurt. Yeah, and so it's great. 07:54.70 Tess Yeah, yeah, we all want to know about the ordinary thief. Don't we Yeah yeah. 08:04.39 archaeoteacup Well, um, indeed. Thank you very much for joining me on my tbra today and before we look in today's objects there's been some hints speckled throughout so far so you might have already guessed what we're looking at but let us first journey back to the first century bc to the northwest coast of norfolk in the east of what we now call england. It's a beautiful sunny day the low scrub and the marshes of the field merging into the distance into the dunes and the sandy shore out in the field. The wind carries the centre of the sea rustling the long grasses. But here in the shade of the trees. It is sheltered only the smallest breeze moves the hair of the man standing in the clearing. He's richly dressed. A finely woven tunic and trousers held together with a belt metal glinting at his wrists and neck in his hands. However is the brightest glint of all as the sunlight reflects off the golden surface of what appears at first sight to be a thick twisted ring as he lowers the item towards a hole dug deep into the ground. We see that it's not actually a complete ring. It has an opening marked by 2 hollowed circles decorated with intricate detail and that is what we are looking at today which is the talk spelttorc and we'll get into the details soon. But first I always like to have a look to see what the majority of the world. Wants to know about talks. Um, so the most asked questions on the internet courtesy of Google search auto complete. Ah so first question fairly simple. What is a talk and it was it was talk necklace and talk bracelet both came up so I'm curious. In fact, what does a talk represent. Is it a necklace or a bracelet. 09:35.35 Tess Right? I think it's both um I mean the word talk comes from twist as in you know, talk twist. So generally. 09:37.10 archaeoteacup Oh okay, excellent. 09:46.62 Tess If we're talking about talks. We're talking about twisted wires a bit like the snettsham great talk if anyone knows what that looks like if you Google it, you'll get a picture um but more generally within Britain they tend to be twisted wires. Um. 09:56.27 archaeoteacup Um. 10:06.90 Tess Whereas if you're looking in Europe you've got a number of different designs so you actually have some that ah have these locking mechanisms so they look like a complete circle. They don't have the gap in the front and they actually have sections with a little um like a morise antennaon joint on it. 10:16.41 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 10:24.29 Tess But click out and then click back in. Um, they come in all kinds of sizes you do get ones that kind of have a ten centimeter diameter so they're potentially arm rings or they could be for children. Um, you. 10:26.90 archaeoteacup Um. 10:38.99 archaeoteacup Mm. 10:41.55 Tess Also get some. There's an incredible one from Germany called the trichtingen I think it's Germany I'm panicking now it might be Switzerland but anyway, um, it's enormous. This thing is like kilograms of silver with these bull's heads at the end and the bull's head's terminals touch. 10:49.22 archaeoteacup Central Europe. Wow. Oh. 10:59.91 Tess And there's no way you could have got this necklace On. They've also got the Romans talk about them being put on statues. So are they symbolic are they worn I mean some of them are definitely warm because we've actually got the Newark talk which is another one. Is actually worn on the basis of the terminals. So. It's obviously been on something whether that's a statue or a person. Um, but yeah, it's complicated things. 11:31.14 archaeoteacup Um, well and indeed that that sort of answers our next question which was who war talks. So I guess we don't know is the answer. Okay. 11:37.38 Tess Ah, no, we don't I mean there's there's potential that they were only occasionally worn but may have been carried in cemeteries in in cemetery ceremonies. Um I mean you see. 11:52.30 Tess Later towards the Roman period you you suddenly see a lot of iconography that has people holding talks and you think of the gundest strip cauldron on one of the panels. There's coronaus holding a talk up so whether they are. 11:56.96 archaeoteacup Oh. 12:06.25 archaeoteacup Um. 12:08.40 Tess Partly to be worn partly symbolic I mean I always think of them a bit like Mayor's necklaces um that maybe when they're not being worn. They're displayed or revered or I don't we don't know I think it's a short answer. 12:14.44 archaeoteacup Ah. 12:20.90 archaeoteacup Okay, okay I mean that seems to be the most standard answer in archaeology in general. So that yeah what answer. 12:25.20 Tess Yeah, yeah I think we can get close to some ideas. But I you know that's the thing isn't it so often people want definitive answers and there aren't definitive answers about the past because you know like you say we can't time travel back to. 12:40.62 archaeoteacup Yeah, unfortunately not yeah, um, well I guess that also then answers the next question which is why people why did people wear talks. So ah, again, we don't know. 12:41.54 Tess See what they were actually doing. 12:49.89 Tess Yeah, no I mean again, are they individual Are they symbolic of a group. Um. 13:00.38 archaeoteacup Um. 13:02.47 Tess Yeah I mean I'm doing some work at the moment on the snettishham talks which is the biggest hod we've got in the Uk in fact I think it's probably the biggest toud we've got full stop in Europe um, but there it almost looks as if. 13:13.15 archaeoteacup Um, oh Wow. Okay. 13:18.73 Tess Each talk represented a person or a period of time. Um, so yeah, it's it's I'm almost wondering if they identify ancestry so that people would have had names for these. 13:23.14 archaeoteacup Ah, cool. 13:33.97 Tess Because every single talk is different. There's not one. That's the same as another they might be slightly similar but they're never the same So I do wonder if they were something that was given or produced at a certain time in somebody's life or. 13:38.20 archaeoteacup Um, interesting. Okay. 13:51.86 Tess To identify something happening within a tribe. 13:53.30 archaeoteacup Okay, oh that's fascinating I didn't realize that they were also individual I thought that maybe there was oh that's amazing. That's really interesting. 13:59.74 Tess Yeah, yeah, there's there's a couple of very simple ones these kind of very simple where you've just got 2 bars that have been twisted together and then the ends have been looped and they are literally just made out of wire thick wire you know rods? um. 14:17.11 archaeoteacup Ah, ah. 14:17.68 Tess Are similar. But even then you get a difference quite often in the way the wires have been twisted. Are they loose twisted or type twisted the shape of the terminals. They really are very unique pieces. 14:31.58 archaeoteacup Okay, and it bet the the twisting is what is what sort of connects them all as in. Oh. 14:39.79 Tess Yeah, and then you've got some that aren't or you've got some that. Um, yeah and it is to get what is a talk in inverted Commerce. Yeah I think it basically comes down to period. 14:45.77 archaeoteacup Ah, exactly well, that's what I'm curious and indeed how how 1 defines a talk then. 14:55.50 archaeoteacup Okay. 14:56.79 Tess To be honest with you. Um, because you do you've you've got things that people are wearing around their necks from very early on I think we were going to talk about that later. Um. 15:11.93 Tess But they are all made slightly differently so you can get some that are literally 2 rods twisted together. You'll get some that are multiple rods twisted together. You'll get some where they've created these kind of springs of twisted wires that they then twist those together that's like the great talk. Um. 15:27.91 archaeoteacup O. 15:31.65 Tess There's a lot of different technological skills and a lot of artistic showing off and I think that's what it is I think it is craftspeople and there is no reason this was men. It's a very important point to make it's as likely to have been women who are almost showing off. 15:35.80 archaeoteacup The. 15:49.47 archaeoteacup Um. 15:51.50 Tess What they can do and trying out new things to make each talk something special. 15:57.51 archaeoteacup Um, interesting oh fascinating. Oh yeah, so I'll okay oh I'll save I'll save my further questions for later because I otherwise I'll go into this section will be 40 minutes long um so the the final question we had was how do you wear a talk. 16:04.29 Tess Ah, yeah. 16:14.10 Tess Well yeah I mean as I say the ones with the gap in ah the thing that most people ask us the whole time is oh my goodness. How would you get that on the neck because the gap between the terminals is really small but actually most of them. 16:20.81 archaeoteacup Exactly mm. 16:29.96 Tess About three inches something like that gap and if you actually feel your neck I'm imagining all of these people feeling their neck now the amount that is actually solid in your neck is quite small and if you actually pull on something that's got a three inch gap it. It will go around your neck quite easily. 16:30.86 archaeoteacup This is. 16:46.26 archaeoteacup Oh the. 16:48.50 Tess You don't actually have to bend it or manipulate it too much. Um, the other thing about these talks which no one realizes is they're really springy. 16:51.80 archaeoteacup Is a. 16:59.22 archaeoteacup Ah, right. 16:59.63 Tess Because of course no one gets to pick them up. We all see them in cases and they look very solid but the ones with the multiple wire Springs like the sneshem Great talk or the Newark talk when you lift them up. They the terminals want to bang together. Um, and they are very. They're firm. 17:02.17 archaeoteacup Of. 17:13.30 archaeoteacup Oh. 17:19.33 archaeoteacup Interesting. 17:19.49 Tess But they have a lot of give in them. Um, so I mean there's all these theories a lot of people have said about how you lift 1 talk terminal up to get it round your neck most of the time you really don't need to and you're putting excessive pressure on it which. 17:33.88 archaeoteacup You can just push. Ah. 17:36.99 Tess Is never a good idea. You're going to start damaging things if you keep bending them out of shape. 17:41.72 archaeoteacup True I had a very nice um snake bracelet at some point which went on and and it was sort of supposed to be put on and off like that so they kind of overlapped a little bit but you sort of bent them slightly out of shaping and put them on and indeed eventually after a while the head fell off which. 17:49.61 Tess Yeah. 17:58.51 archaeoteacup Um. 17:59.10 Tess yeah yeah I mean this is the thing we did. We did some work um down the national physical laboratory where they have this ultra high high speed camera and we opened the newark talk literally by only about five millimeters 18:07.39 archaeoteacup Is it. 18:14.54 Tess And then let it close naturally while it was filmed. Um, and you look at where moves this this camera can pick up where moves on the talk and we were really surprised in that actually the back of the talk which is where everyone says oh they opened and closed them and the back eventually wore out and they broke. 18:14.83 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 18:30.82 archaeoteacup Is it. 18:33.28 Tess That wasn't when the movement was occurring the movement was occurring around the edges. Um, and then when you look a lot of these talks that are broken that everyone says ah these broke at the back because they were open and closed. Actually when you look at the most of them have been cut or something else has gone on. 18:37.27 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 18:44.33 archaeoteacup And. 18:49.92 archaeoteacup This. 18:52.30 Tess So again, that's another one of those kind of bits of law in inverted commas that we've managed to show probably isn't what was going on. 18:58.48 archaeoteacup Interesting but they would likely have been at least all the pictures I've seen is that you have the the if there is an opening or if there is a something that's at the front. Yeah interesting. So oh. 19:06.40 Tess Yeah, you have the opening at the front. Yeah yeah, because obviously the terminals are the really decorated bit. Yeah, but on some of the european ones like faldalgesheim or Erstfield Valelsheim from Germany erstfield from Switzerland. 19:13.98 archaeoteacup Yeah, it seems to be most of the time indeed. Oh that's interesting. 19:25.72 Tess They're actually kind of decorated on the back as well. So they may have been seen in the round either on a person or again like I say maybe they are when they're not on a person. Maybe they're being looked at somewhere. 19:26.58 archaeoteacup Okay, interesting. 19:37.66 archaeoteacup Yeah, or indeed that could you also tell us a little bit about the the heads you know hair was then like you won up. Yeah, because other whatho can you imagine you have this bit at least my hair so thick and curly. You wear a Talkr it'll be hidden and everything. 19:41.56 Tess Well yeah, exactly suggest you have your hair up. Yeah, ah. 19:50.20 Tess Yeah, same as me. Yeah, yeah, talk would disappear. Yeah. 19:56.53 archaeoteacup Yeah, interesting. Oh no fascinating. Okay, well um, those were sort of Google's most search questions. There was actually a surprisingly little about it. Those were the only ones that that came up really? um so there were a lot about talks um with with vikings and things which I think we'll talk about a little bit later because I was curious about that. 20:12.73 Tess Yeah. 20:16.50 archaeoteacup Um, but for now. Ah that's that for Google's most search questions we're going to have a very quick break and then we we will be back soon.