00:01.50 archaeoteacup So welcome back. Everyone I hope that the teacups are now full and the biscuit jar emptier. So ah Fabka we did already introduce you a bit in the first section and how you got into archaeology but I thought it might be interesting, especially with all this talk of science and the importance of looking for scientific evidence in. Archaeological research. Um, we could go into a bit more detail about that aspect and also looking at kind of human evolution and that sort of deep history shall we say Um, so I mean first of all, if we just go right right? back to the beginning I mentioned already that you know a lot of people associate archeology with digging and excavation. But you mentioned that you do. A lot of lab work. Did you still start out as the kind of classic field archaeologist ah student shall we say in that respect. 00:44.76 Femke Oh yeah, I definitely did a lot of I got a lot of excavation experience throughout my studies and I've done some excavations as well after graduating which is nice to not fully lose touch with the actual. Context that the materials that I study come from and I Love excavating I think it's It's amazing to really have your hands on on the context that the the materials come from and yeah to be so close to the past I guess. 01:19.25 archaeoteacup Yeah, and indeed that's a good point. You mentioned in the the context and by Context. Ah, perhaps you could sort of explain very briefly. What what you mean by that. Ah, just ah in terms of archeological. So It's sort of the. The direct association of physical objects or how how would you describe? context. 01:42.88 Femke Yeah I mean that that's that's a good starting point. Um, so to me context is the the combination of the the the tools and the materials that people in a past have left Behind. And the natural environment that it then gets deposited in so the the geological setting if you will. 02:07.81 archaeoteacup Which indeed we were just we were talking I Just realized that we've talked a lot about context in this episode but it hasn't actually been defined. Um anywhere so it was probably good to mention it now. Yeah sorry everyone? um but I I think most people by now have if they've listened to this podcast for long enough they they sort of know the general ah terminology. 02:14.89 Femke Whoops. 02:24.94 archaeoteacup But um, it's I can Imagine. It's very important then you've mentioned a couple of examples where it's like okay we have this evidence. But if you look at the context it means this or we don't have evidence. But if you look at the context it does mean this. So Would you say that it's still very important. Even if you're doing lab-based scientific work to. Like you say keep your hand in with excavation or do you think that it's not necessary. 02:48.30 Femke I Guess technically you don't have to do the excavating yourself if you do this type of research. But I do think it helps at at least to visit those sites to to see how where the evidence was found how it spatially relates to other things. Um. Because it does help you not get stuck in the chemistry and related to the the bigger picture and the the rest of the archaeological material. 03:15.21 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, no definitely and as you say the environment's such ah, especially in the theme of fire. For example, the environment is such an important aspect as well. It seems yeah and do you think? So you're now kind of more involved in the archaeological. 03:21.83 Femke Yeah, yeah. 03:31.26 archaeoteacup Science Aspect you mentioned that you always sort of wanted to get more involved with that in the beginning Do this is something that I have never felt personally um, but that might be because I am a lab person. Um, so as well. So I never had the feeling that like people who work in the lab are seen as less. 03:41.91 Femke Um. 03:50.68 archaeoteacup Archaeological if that makes sense ah than people in the field by the rest of the archeological community. But as someone who had ah experience with both do have you had that experience. Would you say that there's a little bit of an almost a stigma for. 04:04.61 archaeoteacup Archaeological scientists or lab work or post-excavation or whatever you want to call it. 04:09.59 Femke Um, not not in in my field I would say because with human evolution studies because so little in the Grand scheme of things evidence preserves the applying those techniques to get the most information out the. 04:18.90 archaeoteacup Earth. 04:26.70 Femke The limited amount of evidence that we have has always been a thing and the context is important that geological context is important. It's important for dating those dating techniques are important the the processes that um and alter the context after so things are. Varied become very important further back in time you go. So I think for human evolutions All of those humanities questions and natural sciences techniques in very broad spectrum have always gone hand in Hand. So I don't feel any stigma. 04:46.53 archaeoteacup Right? yeah. 05:04.29 archaeoteacup Um, now I mean like I said I've never had it either. It was just I think I was chatting to some people or some people were introducing themselves as saying Oh I'm a lab. 05:05.30 Femke Towards that at all. 05:15.41 archaeoteacup Archaeologists don't hate me. You know I know it's not proper archaeology I was going wait What? yes it is. What are you talking about? it's ah yeah, anyway, this this might just be. 05:21.29 Femke Yeah I mean it's a very important part of making sense of the of the field works sides and yeah and we we wouldn't be able to do the lab work if the field work didn't exist but we wouldn't be able to interpret the field if we don't have all of those Labp techniques. So yeah. 05:26.15 archaeoteacup Exactly. 05:37.33 archaeoteacup Yeah, no, exactly yeah, very complimentary indeed I think it's a nice way to put it. It's you can't have one without the other in a lot of cases I think but and yeah you mentioned, especially with then kind of looking at human human evolution. So ah, we've already talked a bit about how it's. 05:40.52 Femke Yeah, exactly. Yes. 05:53.52 archaeoteacup Can be different from from other regions in terms of it's just so far I mean it it boggles the mind really like if I if you try to think about it. It's it's wow. Um, like it I got I don't think I can really grasp exactly I think I read somewhere it was like neanderthals had been around. Had already been around for longer than we have been around so far before we came a lot or something like ah, something like that which you're like wait. What just doesn't make sense. But what do you find is is particularly different about that field of research compared to your experience in other kinds of archeology. 06:16.82 Femke Yeah, yeah. 06:29.52 Femke Um, So I think what characterizes human evolution studies is that we ask really big questions about really big themes in human evolution. Um, with very little evidence I mean if you compare that to later periods and this is a discussion that I've had. Ah, with art archaeology where where they were like well I don't know how how this works is this reliable Are you even able to say anything because you don't have any evidence as compared to let's say the Roman period or like late late prehistory The the iron Age. There's much more material. Um, which some. 06:53.13 archaeoteacup Right? yeah. 07:05.83 Femke Sometimes also makes it a lot more confusing but so this is me sort of poking to the other sides. Um, but if you have a limited amount of evidence you have to get really creative. Um with how you tackle that and I think this is why. 07:19.58 archaeoteacup Um, the. 07:25.63 Femke Most of the um, the application of natural sciences techniques start out in my field and then sort of gradually work their way into other sides of archeology. 07:37.84 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, because indeed it's sort of there. They can really make a difference I mean they can break but make a difference everywhere but they could really make a difference in the in looking at human evolution. 07:43.40 Femke Yeah, so yeah, yeah, but also like like you said those time spans are they're difficult to comprehend. It's millions of years I mean yeah, we we get comfortable with it because that's all we do, um. 07:53.80 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 07:59.80 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 08:01.26 Femke But you'd also have to realize that then the the margin of error and the resolution you have is it's It's not great or at least very different compared to later periods. 08:13.30 archaeoteacup Ah, ah at. 08:15.17 Femke Um, so there are certain questions. You won't be able to answer because you simply do not have the resolution for it. 08:18.51 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, though, there's a lot of it could be. It could be this but it could not be and I. 08:22.30 Femke Yeah, like we don't even know if certain hearths are contemporaneous to the tools that we find in the same layer because those layers might be tens of thousands of years which makes hearth a very hearth. A very. 08:31.40 archaeoteacup Right? because yeah, which is just. 08:41.36 Femke Interesting snapshot because they might have been used for a long period of time but not thousands of years yeah 08:45.70 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's yeah well, although you never know maybe maybe there is the the ultimate often that you know is just perfect and people just kept using it for thousands of years yes exactly yeah, you never know. 08:56.37 Femke Yeah, there they are still using it. Yeah. 09:04.46 archaeoteacup Ah, but and I can imagine that that also makes it even more difficult I mean I find it bad enough and I do sort of yeah prehistory kind of latish Prehistory I suppose um is that whole idea that you know yes they were still people but at the same time they lived in a completely different. Ah, world that we do now both kind of culturally and environmentally and all this kind of stuff and so you have to you know, remove yourself a little bit and any interpretations you make you have to try and remove your modern bias so to speak. And that's just looking at late prehistory humans like I like Homo sapiens but I can imagine if you're looking at other species of human and things like that it gets is it more difficult to sort of feel that connection. Do you feel like you're more.. Ah how how how to say more removed. Kind of emotionally shall we say from the from the people you're looking at or would you say it's still that's still an important factor if that makes sense. 10:06.42 Femke Oh That's a very good point. Um I So personally I feel very connected to the the hominins we study because I love them and I love learning about them and I think it's so cool that we can go. So far back in time and really trace our our origins that being said, they are not. They're not us. Um, and yeah, so we don't know if the if things worked the same way that those are all assumptions but you also have to start somewhere. 10:28.46 archaeoteacup Yeah. 10:36.30 archaeoteacup Asked. 10:41.37 Femke So you have to keep this in mind but not let it um, limit your ability to study the past too much because otherwise we just won't get anywhere. So. 10:50.11 archaeoteacup Which is also just a problem in archeology in general right? that that whole thing of of I remember chatting to someone and they sort of said oh what do you love most about archeology and I said oh what I actually love most is that we can never really know you know what exactly happened they were going Paul but her like how can you. 11:01.88 Femke M. 11:07.99 archaeoteacup How can you get any satisfaction then because surely if you can never know then you it's you never get that sort of sense of release you know of of being sure about something and I mean that's again, just for late prehistory but again for human evolution in that kind of yeah like pleistocene archaeology I Guess it's a. 11:25.56 Femke Um, so my my trick to balance it out. Um is um yeah, and you people might be able to guess this is focusing on the natural processes. 11:25.73 archaeoteacup Even more the case. 11:29.72 archaeoteacup To Avoid completely mentally spiraling going. What does it all matter. There you go. 11:40.80 Femke Because those are universal and you can measure them and you can understand them and then from there you can try and approach the archaeology and indeed but we'll never be sure but we can get close. Maybe. 11:52.60 archaeoteacup Yeah, we could say maybe things things that might potentially worse perhaps have happened. 11:58.39 Femke Yeah I mean and and science in general is aimed at finding the best explanation for something with the available evidence and then changing those explanations if new evidence comes available. So. 12:14.50 archaeoteacup Yes. 12:17.24 Femke That's that's no different for archeology. The only problem we have is that we cannot go back to check if it's actually true or ask anyone? Yeah, if time travel was real that would be great but then we might also. 12:21.98 archaeoteacup Yeah, which is such a shame so it would be so useful to just no yeah exactly I mean the archaeology would be a bit obsolete then because everyone could just good. 12:34.34 Femke All loser jobs. Yeah, we we don't want that either. 12:40.57 archaeoteacup No exactly Well I think we can be safe in the knowledge that probably time travel will never be invented because surely we would have met someone by now like you would right? You would think it was ah that's the that's the whole thing. No that if you know if ever anyone invents time travel come back to this. 12:46.53 Femke Yeah, oh that That's yeah, the time cheerful paradox. 12:58.67 Femke Yeah, yeah. 12:58.97 archaeoteacup Moment and say something and then okay, okay, cool. That's my um but I did have 1 kind of sort of final question on this topic because ah indeed it's sort of a very specialized area that you're in now you know it's human evolution. But it's looking at fire in human evolution and it's looking at the chemical processes of fire and human evolution. Um, what would you say are kind of the advantages and the disadvantages of such a specialization like for example, do you think that you are now very much in that niche. Do you think that you could also then change to Roman Archeology tomorrow if you needed to um, what's what's the kind of range of specialization that that you. Get to at this stage. 13:38.36 Femke So I think it's helpful to have a specialization because it gives you something to really sink your teeth in and to focus on and to to build your academic profile around people will also know if if we have questions about this topic we go to this person. 13:57.21 archaeoteacup Let's why you're here today as well. 13:57.41 Femke Um, yeah, or some other people who are specializing and same thing. Um, that being said, if you choose something that is very niche and that not a lot of other people do then you run the risk of your colleagues not knowing where to put you. 14:15.00 archaeoteacup Ah, oh. 14:15.42 Femke Um, which is a problem I run into um because not a lot of people approach fire from a chemical perspective. So I'm really trying to um promote this this way of thinking um and get more people to do it. But I mean I guess most specializations probably started out like that. 14:35.60 archaeoteacup Um, the. 14:35.58 Femke So there's a lot of research going on about fire but people tend to take different approaches. Um, then for what I do because I study fundamental processes. So just natural things that are um, they're always they always work fundamentally in the same way. 14:41.33 archaeoteacup Um, how. 14:53.63 Femke Fire is always a fire that follows certain rules and so so the other aspect of my research is preservation. There are certain rules that processes in the soil follow as well. So if you understand those processes that those data and techniques. Can then be applied to any other period so I could indeed decide tomorrow that I want to research Roman fires and then all of my stuff can just be transferred I don't want to do that but I could I could give I could give my my data and tools. 15:15.48 archaeoteacup Um, birth. 15:18.27 archaeoteacup Yeah. 15:30.72 Femke 2 other people who would then be able to do that and I think that is a really that's the strength of a fundamental research. So. 15:31.20 archaeoteacup Both. And you mentioned a little bit um of you know that indeed not many people now are are doing chemical chemical analysis of fire or however, you would like to say it. But um because I can I can imagine that a lot of people might think. That Oh but someone's already doing that you know or oh,, that's a very niche top. Ah you know say there's a archaeology student listening in going. Oh I'd love to do fire and in human evolution but femca's already doing that So That's already being done. Do you think that's a valid supposition or would you sort of encourage people. Even if. Other people are already doing it to do the same topic do something slightly different. What would your kind of advice be to that that potential archaeology student. 16:19.91 Femke If you're if you're excited about a topic go for it and then you'll find that the thing the question, the technique the combination of those things that hasn't been done yet and that you can focus on. Um I also think there's a certain threshold. If the specialization is extremely niche There might be 5 people doing it and then it it does feel a little bit like oh but they're already doing it. Why should I go in the same direction if the specialization is a bit broader and there's lots of people are doing it in lots of different countries. Then that also I think makes you feel that there's more space for everyone because there's also so much archeology that we cannot possibly have one person do all of it. So it's helpful if we have more of the same specialists. So we that we can divide the workload and also find. 17:03.24 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 17:07.26 archaeoteacup Now. 17:10.53 Femke Different questions to answer because everyone has their own I think perspective on the past and um preferences and different methods. So yes. 17:17.25 archaeoteacup Especially because you were talking about imagination being so vital so I can imagine that also has a would be very beneficial to have those different yeah things. Yeah, so they. 17:23.70 Femke Yeah, exactly developing techniques coming up with different questions building on existing work. 17:33.37 archaeoteacup Those of you listening in who who want to do this but with feeling all no people are already doing it. That's fine. Just have have your own take on it. Um. 17:41.62 Femke And and what I would also like to add is don't be afraid ah of the chemistry If you're interested in in it I had no background in chemistry I took it for a little bit in high school then I dropped it ironically should not have done that. Um, but then I just decided this is this is one of what I want to do I'll I'll work towards understanding the parts that I need um to be able to do this and yeah, it takes some extra work and sometimes I I run into problems in data and I'm like is this very complex or am I just. Missing some of the basics that would have made this an easy solution. Um, but you can always work through that there's literature. There's other specialists that you can talk to. So yeah, if you want to do something just go for it. 18:22.10 archaeoteacup Ah, ah. 18:29.20 archaeoteacup No I think that that's a yeah I think that's a very nice ah thing to to potentially end the podcast on although I did also want to ask? um because I understand you're continuing your research into fire with a postdoc are there any hints that you have on sort of exciting discoveries or research questions that you're going to be. Discussing or researching further. 18:51.67 Femke Um, so my Ph D work focused a lot on method development. So I was in the lab a lot working with modern materials. So I'm very excited to so to start and applying that knowledge in those data and techniques to more archeology. 19:05.20 archaeoteacup Ah. 19:09.42 Femke And also to explore other methods and other proxies to answer this yeah other questions about Fire. So I'd like to explore um landscape fire uses and see if we can use biomarkers so molecules in sediments. Um, to get some extra information about this very difficult To-trace Behavior. So. There's lots of exciting ideas on the horizon and then now I need to figure out which ones I'm going to do and where and how um. 19:46.98 archaeoteacup Yeah, very exciting. Well good luck with all of those things. Um, that marks the end of our T break. It sounds like you've got a lot to to do? um so I should let you get back to it. But thank you? So so much for joining me today. Fab guy Really appreciate it I Yeah, thank you very much. 19:47.71 Femke Yeah, it's exciting. So. 20:02.45 Femke You're very welcome. 20:04.95 archaeoteacup And if anyone wants to find out more about femca's work or research into fire or anything that we've chatted about today. Do check the show notes on the podcast podcast homepage I will be putting up some links there. So yes I hope that everyone enjoyed our journey today very lot I think this is the deepest we've ever gone back in time. 20:22.37 Femke Oh Wow I'm I'm sorry. 20:24.49 archaeoteacup Ah, no, it was good. It was great. So yeah, um, enjoy and see you next month for another episode of tea break time travel.