00:02.13 archaeoteacup So welcome back. Everybody so we know a little bit more about ah fire itself but femca as you are here as our fire human evolution expert. Maybe you could tell us even more about it in relation to that. So when I was researching this to try and make the little. Time travel segment I did find it very hard to discover exactly when the earliest evidence for fire actually is so I think even in the original one. It sort of said one point five million years but then we were chatting and you said not so sure because somewhere else said 50000 years indeed and that's what I put in. But so what. When is the earliest evidence that we have for fire use or you know what What's the kind of discussion around that because it sounds like quite a complicated topic. 00:44.51 Femke Yeah, it is and there is still a lot of discussion about the the earliest use of fire and also about what that then looked like so if you if you take a certain definition then maybe it goes back in time and to date x. But then if you take a different definition. It becomes younger or even much older. Um, so the earliest association of fire traces with um human behavior so to say dose day to one point five one point six million years ago and they're found in Africa. 01:03.59 archaeoteacup Oh. 01:22.50 Femke A few different sites. There is still a bit of discussion about whether that's natural fire whether these hominins so in this case, mostly homo erectus um, we're actually using the fire or maybe not um, it yeah, so it's important to. Make sure that the evidence you find is actually heated materials then you have to figure out if it's anthropogenic fire use or natural fire so that makes the earliest evidence a bit complicated then when you go. Ah, slightly younger periods but still super old I guess for every other type of archaeology. Um the evidence becomes a bit more easy to interpret and also a bit more widespread and a bit more solid so in Europe. Good evidence for fire use like regular widespread fire use goes back at least to four hundred thousand years ago there is also some earlier stuff in Europe but that is more contentious and then fire production which we talked about earlier is very difficult to trace in the archaeological records. Um, and the earliest evidence for that dates to around fifty thousand years ago 02:40.38 archaeoteacup So okay, so we see the fire in the archaeological record at the four hundred thousand years ago even before but it's unsure whether they were actually creating it at that point. Okay, in just. 02:50.28 Femke Yeah, and there's so there's different earliest evidence for also in different regions. 02:56.54 archaeoteacup Okay, but we know that for example, four hundred thousand years ago they were using the fire. What's the sort of what what are the the signs that can tell us that. 03:02.80 Femke Yeah, definitely so you trace fire in the archaeological record by looking for what we call fire proxies so that's anything that's affected by heat left behind by the use of fire. If we're lucky then that preserves in the the shape of a hearth which then makes it very easy to recognize um and also to identify that it's human made and used um if preservation is less favorable then we have to work with. Ah, scattered Ash Charcoal heated bones some heated lithics biomolecules in the soil. Um, and then the puzzle becomes a bit more complicated because you have to put those things together and make sure again that they're actually heated. And that they relate to human behavior. 03:55.90 archaeoteacup So okay and so what else could cause those if it if it wasn't heated. What else could have happened there kind of thing. 04:04.20 Femke Um, so there's certain soil processes that could also stain for example bones. So then they would look black but they're not actually heated and for organic other organic materials like planned material humification. 04:11.25 archaeoteacup Ah I see. 04:21.53 Femke Which is a part of a process in soil formation which you want if you want to grow plants that sort of thing also creates the the look of early charring but then it's again, it's not actually heated and there's oxidation processes in sediments that make. 04:34.31 archaeoteacup Okay. 04:40.32 Femke Make it look red which has to do with iron instead of heating So. There's There's quite a bit of processes that result in the same visual characteristics. But then if you take a more closer chemistry look at it Then. You'll find that it's not actually heated. 04:58.52 archaeoteacup And do you then find that there's quite a lot of evidence shall we say in inverted covers from kind of previous years of research where they didn't maybe use these scientific method methods that now have been disproven or well I obviously could disprove anything in archaeology. But as in. The the evidence at least has been shown to not actually be evidence for fire because it was it looked like it but it wasn't chemically viable does that make sense. Yes. 05:26.55 Femke Yes, that that's ah, especially the case for material that was excavated in let's say the 50 s and the sixty s yeah because yeah, those techniques they were available but not as widely used and some of that. Especially the the more contentious very early sites have been found and to not actually involve heating and ah a a more famous I Guess maybe only in my field example. 05:58.44 archaeoteacup Ah. 05:59.68 Femke Is the the site of schoringer in in Germany where they also find those found those famous spears and a bunch of butchered animal remains. Um, and also what originally was presumed hearth features there they were round they were reds. 06:09.62 archaeoteacup Ah. 06:16.38 Femke There was material sticking out of it. It looked like it had charcoal and the original excavators sort of preserved them. Um in the spot to wait for more elaborate techniques to become available to really check if they were heated and then someone did. 06:33.20 archaeoteacup Um, got it. 06:35.90 Femke About ten years ago and she actually found that they were not hearths they were the formation of other soil processes like oxidation iron content and some humification of materials. 06:40.52 archaeoteacup Ah. 06:50.31 Femke And so there were some bones in there as well and that they were just not heated at all. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, because that would have yeah would have been really cool to have something that old really be and also something that really looked like a hearth. So even with those you sometimes have to be careful. So. 06:52.38 archaeoteacup Oh okay, so oh no, that must be so disappointing. Um, yeah, yeah, indeed because what? what? So a hearth is generally like a like a pit in the ground or I mean what?? What's the sort of general identifying features. Would you say. 07:18.81 Femke Um, they can also be so ah, a fireplace can be built on a flat surface. So Then in that case, you'll see a sort of a um, a spherical signature in the. In the sediment of red in soil and then there's a layer of ah of char which is the the chart plant material that was in or on the surface of the that. What the fire was built on then a layer of Ash which relates to either the fuel or. 07:36.45 archaeoteacup Okay. 07:48.28 archaeoteacup Ah. 07:54.70 Femke Burning off the topsoil. Um, and then there might be some some charcoal and stuff in there. Maybe there's some stones around it sometimes people indeed dug Shallow pits or deeper pits that then are filled with heated material. 08:09.55 archaeoteacup Which I guess is the same as you'd see on like a campsite nowadays like if people have kind of tidied away their fire. So I suppose it's one of those things that just hasn't really changed. You know there's only so many ways to build a path I suppose. 08:13.70 Femke Yeah, yeah. 08:23.62 Femke Yeah, and not to get too technical again. But if you if you think about fire as the application of Heat energy. Then there's different types to contain that heat and also different types to um, spread heat and. 1 type of fire is not necessarily more efficient or I get I should say one type of campfire is not necessarily more efficient at radiating that heat than a different type so that might actually indicate cultural choices rather than functional ones. 08:57.27 archaeoteacup Um, it's just a so there's typologies fire typologies which relates a little bit to another question I had because indeed some people might be listening in and thinking why are they talking about fire I thought that this podcast was about archaeological objects um things in the past. But. 08:59.89 Femke So yeah, yeah, yeah. 09:11.96 Femke Yeah. 09:14.91 archaeoteacup The reason that we are having this particular episode is because as I say I know femca from Leden and we were having a chat about my podcast and she was saying well fires an object I was going is it She said Yes, of course it is so I thought we could unpack that a little bit um on here. And I thought indeed it's ah it's an interesting concept I mean what defines ah an archeological artifact. Um, so to you fire is indeed an artifact. 09:37.80 Femke Yeah I think it's both a chemical. It's definitely a chemical process right? But I also think it's an artifact and for the purpose of this question I googled the definition of an artifact so according to dictionarydictionary.com which 09:41.60 archaeoteacup Yes. 09:50.49 archaeoteacup Oh excellent, We love that. 09:56.40 Femke To be fair is not an archaeological source but this is I guess the generally accepted definition of an artifact. It says something made or given shape by a human being such as a tool or a work of art I like that they mentioned that especially an object of archaeological interest. 10:00.76 archaeoteacup The. 10:11.62 archaeoteacup Ah. 10:14.58 Femke And then it also said it's anything man-made and I think this already supports my argument that fire is an artifact um because it's not like it's not an object per se or at all. Yeah yeah that I mean that might be the definition of an object. 10:15.20 archaeoteacup Oh. 10:26.47 archaeoteacup Well, although you can carry it around with you Apparently so you know? Yeah yeah. 10:34.11 Femke Um, but it is definitely a tool that is used for lots of different things and when it's actively used. It's shaped by humans. It's eventually also produced by humans and when it preserves is a recognizable feature like a hearth. Um. 10:37.72 archaeoteacup The the vote. 10:52.81 Femke It can be classified in terms of typology like other artifacts. Um, and then as with other artifacts we want to know how it was made and what it was used for. So I think that that makes it an artifact. So. 10:54.48 archaeoteacup Exactly as we were just saying. Yeah. 11:07.46 archaeoteacup Now I mean we've persuaded me I think it's ah yeah, and like you say it's a tool right in a way so sort of ah something although that does then there's a couple of things. Okay, so. 11:11.25 Femke Yeah, yeah. 11:16.60 Femke And. 11:19.71 archaeoteacup So okay, maybe first of all because you just mentioned it. So we've already talked quite a bit about how it was made. But how indeed would it have been used. Do you think by? For example, those earliest I think you mentioned homo erectus um I guess also Homeman Neand Herman da would have been using it. Um, and then of course homo sapiens. So how was there. 11:33.75 Femke Yeah. 11:39.40 archaeoteacup Can we identify what it was used for. Basically. 11:42.31 Femke Ah, so yes, it this is a great question and also one that's still very hotly upon not intended. Yeah hot. It's hotly debateds. It's sparked debates. Yeah no, there's Ed No, there's endless puns. It's terrible. 11:49.11 archaeoteacup Um, ah oh they just keep on coming. Ah. 11:58.20 Femke And my apologies to all listeners. Um at anyway. Um, um so based on ethnographic studies and also modern usifier. We know that it can be used for lots of different things right. 12:01.16 archaeoteacup Ah, they're loving it. 12:16.58 Femke So It can be used for cooking. It can be used to provide lights. It can be used to provide heat. Um, it can be used to ward off insects or predators. It's used in ritualistic settings. Um, it's. Used as a tool to shape and produce other materials and all of those most of those things also apply to the past. Um,, there's also sociological evidence or evidence studies that show that um, sitting around a campfire has a calming effects on people so it lowers your. 12:38.27 archaeoteacup And proof. 12:55.90 archaeoteacup Be fat now. 12:55.92 Femke Blood pressure. Um, and and then it makes people more social I have no idea how that works but this is what those studies show. Um, yeah, and then um, not a sociologist. 13:04.32 archaeoteacup Let's say what was that science like I'm curious. 13:09.76 Femke Um, and then there's also it's been suggested that it played a role in the development of language Some of those functions are easier to identify in the archaeological record than others because the development of language obviously does not leave. 13:13.29 archaeoteacup It just egg. 13:26.25 archaeoteacup Yeah, no, not until history and we assume that they were speaking I guess a lot earlier than they started writing things down. Yeah. 13:27.10 Femke Physical traces. 13:32.76 Femke Yeah, um, but some of these other things you might be able to to directly trace. So step 1 is finding evidence for fire and then from there. You would want to if we go back to fire being the application. The fire use being the application of heat energy to a specific task. Um, you'd want to know what the characteristics of that fire were because cooking requires a different temperature than let's say um. 14:02.19 archaeoteacup Iron working. So like you wouldn't want to cook your chicken at the temperature that you're melting and diet. 14:04.58 Femke Iron Yeah iron smelting yeah or pottery making No. No, definitely not. There would be no chicken left. Um and then a fire that that needs to provide light needs needs flames whereas again, a cooking fire is more glowing embers and then if you want to produce. Ah, tar as an adhesive then you need um, reducing and reducing environment. So an environment that is almost depleted of Oxygen Um, So if you are able to reconstruct the characteristics of a fire. So the temperature and the Oxygen availability. 14:32.92 archaeoteacup So okay. 14:43.40 Femke Then that might give you clues as to what it was used for. Um yeah, and then the other thing you could do is look obviously look at the context because there's other evidence for human behavior around this evidence of fire. Hopefully um, bring that in. 14:55.25 archaeoteacup But yes. 15:00.27 Femke Um, and then also maybe look for biomolecules in the soil because they might be related to processing of plants rather than animals and I worked on a um on material from a site in France where they had preserved hearths that dated back to the. Ah. Ignatian and a gravvettin so that is forty thousand years ago to let's say twenty five thousand years ago um and then we saw that in certain periods there was there were more biomolecules related to animal material and then in other periods. 15:23.92 archaeoteacup Oh Wow. Ah. 15:39.34 Femke All of a sudden that changed or all of a sudden it changed ten thousands of years um it changed to a signature that was much more dominated by plant material now that you can speculate what this means but something changed. 15:43.64 archaeoteacup Ah overnight. 15:58.70 Femke And that might have to do with the way they used dose hearths. 16:01.13 archaeoteacup Done it. Interesting. Oh which makes sense I mean that's sort of like so many things that you have I guess or well I suppose with us. It's sort of different I'm trying to think of a modern comparison in terms of like what's in the kitchen like you know the oven but I guess the ovens have changed as Well. But. Well, but then I guess if it's like a gas oven or an electric oven or an induction say you know at the stovetop I mean then maybe you'd you'd approach things in different ways or you'd make things in different way that I don't think I don't think I'm making sense Now they they. 16:33.47 Femke Well and and as with an oven which I think is I mean it is again. The application of heat to a specific task. Um, it's used for different things I mean we tend to only put food in it. But it's different types of food. You might bake a cake and then the next day you might roast a chicken. 16:37.30 archaeoteacup Yes, yeah, yeah. 16:49.89 archaeoteacup Right? Yeah, or you can even my daughter has one of those little heat animal things. You know that you can put like usually we put it in the microwave but technically it says on the label you could put it in the oven at like a very very very low temperature and it will like be nice and warm. Go head of cuddle. 16:51.51 Femke Um, and it's then it's. 17:06.47 Femke Yeah, or like like they I remember as a kid I had these um you could cast like gypsum into a mold and then that had to somehow be low temperature baked and then you could like pay paint though. Yeah, those and or paint those for yeah. 17:15.93 archaeoteacup Yeah, all there were those beads they? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, tree had yeah off these are fun. Sorry yes. 17:24.29 Femke Figurines. But so the the other point I was going to make is noise um is that like like ovens fire in the past or hearth in the past would have also been used for all of those tasks. In sort of the same location for an extended period of time so that makes it a bit more difficult. Um, so really pinpoint 1 type of behavior. 17:43.59 archaeoteacup Um, but. 17:46.49 archaeoteacup Yeah, right? Yeah yeah, so it's not like they had a chicken cooking oven and I don't know copper working up. Well I guess they would have had different ovens for copper working but like ah a salad cooking oven or something not salad. 18:00.83 Femke I mean yeah, you could stir stir fri and Corgette and put it in your salad. So yeah in in later periods the younger periods um eventually. 18:05.38 archaeoteacup You don't cook up salad didn't nothing. You know what? I mean exactly? Yeah yeah, exactly. 18:17.24 archaeoteacup Aha. 18:19.16 Femke Technology became a bit more specialized. So then you would have cooking cooking ovens and Pottery Kilns and iron smelting I guess they're also called kilns see this is where I get confused because it's outside of my human evolution fairness. That's the word I was looking for. Yes. 18:22.40 archaeoteacup The her. 18:35.14 archaeoteacup Ah, fur I think right? Yeah yeah I trying to think it's also probably different in every language which ones that which then yeah yeah. 18:38.83 Femke Yeah, we go? Yeah which again relates to it relates to temperature and but yeah, if you if all you have is a hearth and even if it's this if it's a simple hearth. Yeah, then you'd use that for all these different. 18:56.23 archaeoteacup Yeah. 18:57.32 Femke Applications and you'd use it for the entire duration um of your occupation of a certain area and maybe when you're on hunt or when you're foraging you might quickly use start a fire to cook your lunch which they they do have ethnographic evidence for and it's very quick. 19:02.97 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Yeah. 19:17.31 Femke Or modern I think it's aboriginals that just like quickly start a fire to light a cigarette and then move on and so that's ah, maybe something to consider for the archeological record as well, right? So we we tend to focus on ah sites that have a lot of. 19:23.85 archaeoteacup Ah, oh well. 19:29.20 archaeoteacup Yeah, ah. 19:35.72 Femke Evidence for occupation but there might be evidence for human behavior scattered throughout the landscape that we're missing. Yeah yeah, yeah. 19:37.39 archaeoteacup Um. 19:43.51 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, which I mean that's the case in so many aspects of archaeology right? There's so many things out out there. Potentially um I did have ah 1 other question related a bit to what we were saying before. So um, when we were originally talking about it being potentially one. Point five million years ago and you mentioned that was with homo erectus and then ah yeah, that since then there's been quite a few different human species. Um I can't remember off the top of my head. What they all are, but hopefully you can enlighten us. But um, so do we know that they would have been. Or or or do we imagine that they would have been using it for different purposes as well. Because for example, when I picture homer erect as I remember they were the the tool makers right? They were the the first tool makers um and power haless. That's yes. 20:25.38 Femke Now that that's originally that's homo habilis and but then now the ever the first accepted I guess maybe not by everyone tools date back to I think three million years ago so that's like. 20:42.61 archaeoteacup Oh Wow. Okay, even more? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, which is if you were created like twice as far. Yeah, ah. 20:44.85 Femke Ah, that's way way way earlier. Um, yeah, and then it's a bit unclear what species that is actually associated with because yeah, you need if there's multiple species around at a specific time. You really need human remains. 20:59.42 archaeoteacup Of. 21:03.94 Femke Associate with the tools to be absolutely sure and even then it's called. It's cost for discussion. Yeah. 21:07.62 archaeoteacup Yeah, it might just have been. Yes, yeah, okay, but but anyway can we see that um because I think I don't know I can imagine it also for many people listening in. Maybe you sort of have this assumption of For example, homo erectus and yes, maybe they were using tools but it was sort of they're still walking around naked and they're eating raw meat and they're you know all of this is that the classic you know stereotype of the kind of Caveman you know, look or whatever is is that the case or do we know that they were for example, using fire to cook or were they. Ah. Yeah. 21:44.77 Femke So because of because the evidence for Homo Erectus is quite contentious. Um, there's not a lot of agreement on even if if they use fire let alone what they would be using fire for there. 21:57.83 archaeoteacup Ah, right? the. 22:01.95 Femke However, a bunch of theories. Um, and the the the main and most well-known one. It's also been in popular Science books. So maybe some of the listeners will recognize this is linking Homo Erectus fire use to cooking foods that then would have. 22:21.76 Femke Facilitates it the brain growth that we see in that species because there's a leap in in. Yeah, but then you need so this is sort of a more evolutionary anthropology take um. 22:25.66 archaeoteacup That does sound familiar indeed. Okay, yeah. 22:40.70 Femke On the on the subjects. But then you need the archaeological evidence to support that which is that that's where it gets a bit more difficult. Um, but we could think of the earliest fire use as probably related to food because. 22:41.55 archaeoteacup Good right? right. 22:58.19 Femke Um, if you think about other animals using or let's say making use of fire. There's there's a but a bushfire and then there's certain birds that pick up burning branches and drop them somewhere else so they can. 23:05.67 archaeoteacup Her her. 23:17.64 Femke Um, chase out Prey animals and and they become easier to catch. Yeah, um, there are reports of other primates going to the location of a natural fire after it's ah it's. 23:18.78 archaeoteacup Really interesting. 23:36.49 Femke Extinguished and forging basically for toasted nuts and maybe some this is going to sound a bit harsh some toasted animals. Ah yeah, so. 23:45.87 archaeoteacup Well I mean why not we would. 23:52.38 Femke Ah, if we imagine this happening around the time of amal erectus they would have observed maybe that same behavior but they would have they think the first thing they would have observed is the benefits in terms of food that it gives you um. 24:06.17 archaeoteacup Um, first that. 24:07.78 Femke So that that might mean that they would take the fire and then try to cook their food or maybe they would burn the landscape like these birds because then they would they would have access to the toasted nuts and the and the and the toasted toasted animals. 24:18.37 archaeoteacup Ah, le. 24:23.58 archaeoteacup Ah, the toasted at but yeah, ah, fascinating. Ah. 24:27.27 Femke Um, whenever they wanted. Um, yeah, but I mean all of that is is quite hard to to prove especially landscape fire use which we also have at the graphic evidence for because of course it it looks the same as natural fires. Yeah. 24:38.32 archaeoteacup Yeah, right? Yeah, so it's again. Yeah. 24:47.18 Femke So you need a really good context to be able to say this probably manmade landscape fire and not just a natural fire. 24:57.50 archaeoteacup You want a little note written being like dog made this fire or something just like oh yeah, great cool. But the business man made I This reminds me of now this might be a bit of a dated theory. Um, but it reminds me of a theory that I read about recently where they were talking about theanderthals. 25:02.33 Femke Yeah, um. 25:14.83 archaeoteacup Specifically and um, how they were ah doing almost seasonal fire use because indeed during the winter months there wasn't as much naturally occurring fire and they weren't as able to produce fire themselves So ah had to use the naturally created stuff so actually. Hearths that they see are O D in Summer and spring months is this still a sort of theory that is rife within the um, kind of paleo Archeology Community or is that a bit dated now. 25:44.70 Femke It's It's definitely still promoted by the people who originally suggested it? Um, but it's a massive point of discussion at least within the the people The yeah, the group of people that I work with. 25:48.50 archaeoteacup Okay, ah, right, got it? okay. 26:01.62 archaeoteacup Ah. 26:02.42 Femke Um, there's some things that we need to consider for this evidence. Um, So what? they what they Found. It's based on 2 sites where they indeed found Abundant fire evidence in the warmer Layers. So where the climate was a bit. Nicer. Um, and then much less or even no fire evidence for the layers that relate to a glacial period. However, this might also be an artifact of preservation. 26:22.52 archaeoteacup Um, is it. 26:38.30 archaeoteacup Rise. 26:39.97 Femke Because the the the circumstances in the sedimentation and all of that and the process processes in the soil might have varied depending on the climate that the material was deposited in um, that that's 1 thing then there might be um. 26:49.58 archaeoteacup Is it. 26:59.20 Femke Ah, factor of behavioral choices. Maybe they were I don't know starting to fire somewhere else or using them somewhere else or they could be all sorts of things. Um, yeah, yeah. 27:10.70 archaeoteacup Yeah, had the scattered throughout the landscape fires that we discussed on the Earth. Yeah. 27:18.55 Femke Um, or because neanderthals are also cold adapted. Maybe they decided not to use the fire to keep warm because that is also an assumption right? that you would need to fire to stay warm in these glacial periods. But what if they were using it for someone something else and keeping warm wasn't the main focus of their fires. 27:24.95 archaeoteacup Right? the. 27:36.44 archaeoteacup Ah, right? yeah. 27:37.39 Femke Then maybe day I don't know there was some sort of task that they did in warmer periods that required the fire and there was less of a need for that in Colder Periods who knows um the thing about the fire production is that we then have to look for evidence for it right? So we want to find the tools. 27:45.44 archaeoteacup Yeah, no. 27:56.93 Femke And 1 of my colleagues actually found those tools so and lots of them associated with neanderthals at various sites in France dating to fifty thousand years ago so we know that at least some neerthals in the same region were regularly producing fire and. 28:05.16 archaeoteacup Who's it. 28:13.37 archaeoteacup Ah, nice. Okay. 28:15.55 Femke And the so the fun thing about this evidence is that they used Handexes Um, which I guess was there there. Yeah, their preferred multi-purpose tool Anyway, um, instead of what you'd think about as like a strike light where you have like a flake or um or a a. 28:19.83 archaeoteacup Um, oh as the flint bit. Ah yeah. 28:34.11 Femke Um, a blade that you then used to strike it So the evidence looks different than it looks in more recent periods which is potentially why it was up until that paper quite difficult to trace it back in time. 28:38.23 archaeoteacup Ah. 28:42.60 archaeoteacup Oh. 28:50.53 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, absolutely yeah, which I mean could again be the case with so many things right in archeology. It's just that We don't know what it's supposed to look like or what it what it could have looked like in the past amazing. 28:50.79 Femke And mean if you're not looking for the right evidence you won't find it to ask. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and in terms of fire use therefore I think it's super important to keep that that chemistry in mind because if you understand the chemistry you will understand have a better understanding of. What types of materials are left behind by specific types of fire and how well those different materials might preserve and then from that we can start to make to build hypotheses about the fire use instead of the other way around. 29:16.65 archaeoteacup Good. 29:31.19 archaeoteacup Yeah, amazing. Well which leads us nicely ah to our next section Actually so we will have a very quick break now. So that our listeners can have an opportunity to top up their tea but we will be back soon.