00:00.00 archaeoteacup Okay, check that this is worked fine. Yeah, it looks fine. Yep so I'll go in. Okay. 00:07.80 archaeoteacup Hello and welcome to episode 15 of t break time travel I'm your host Matilda Zebrecht and today I'm s savoring a strawberry tea very seasonally appropriate at least here we're nearly out of the strawberry season and joining me on my Tbreak Today is archeologists Femca Ridesma and are you also drinking a ah seasonally appropriate tea or have you gone the more traditional route. 00:31.80 Femke Um I don't know about that. But I'm drinking a iced matcha ah, which I is much. Yeah I love that in the summer and it's now. Oh yeah, you need to source that this is going to sound extremely pretentious. 00:32.74 archaeoteacup Oh okay, that sounds very exotic I admit I've tried a match at Latte once and I just couldn't it. It was now. 00:48.45 Femke You need to source really high quality matchcha. Otherwise it just tastes like chalk which is awful. Yeah, and but once you do I Can highly recommend. It's a good coffee alternative that doesn't give you the jitters. 00:51.35 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, that's good to know. 01:01.80 archaeoteacup Ah, well, that's because I was some I to be fair now I'm thinking about it. The only time I've tried it I think was when we were having a long drive and we stopped at a you know gas station thing and I got the matcher latte because I didn't want to have a coffee and I thought that. 01:09.33 Femke Oh oh no. 01:16.50 archaeoteacup Sounds nice. Everyone always goes on and on about how nice much is and then it was disgusting but that probably explains why to be fair. 01:20.62 Femke Yeah I mean that happened to me a few times before I found the nice stuff. 01:25.74 archaeoteacup Okay, oh okay, oh no, oh dear does that mean I have to go shopping for some nice much tea. What a shame and is it like a powder thing that you add or is it like a tea. 01:31.83 Femke I Can I can share the the the website that I order it from now. 01:42.86 Femke So it is ah ground green tea leaves that I think are grown in the shades in Japan like a specific very specific conditions and then you mix it in with ah the right temperature water. It's very sensitive. 01:54.36 archaeoteacup Ah, that's why they? okay? Okay, the little things. Yeah, ah okay, well, that's the nice thing right? And that's also that that's why I use loose tea. Ah. 01:59.29 Femke And then you you whisk it with one of those like bamboo whisks. So it becomes a bit frothy. Yeah, it's ah it's a fun process. Also yeah. 02:11.64 archaeoteacup Pretty much all the time now because it's just such a nice little kind of you know ritual. Um, then then you're allowed to use the word rituals and archaeologists. It's a nice little morning ritual um to just yeah, have the tea and set it up and do the kettle in the sieve and yeah so I can imagine. Yeah, exactly huh good to know good to know. 02:14.87 Femke Yeah, yeah, yeah, start your day. 02:28.21 archaeoteacup Okay, well there you go. We've we've learned something new already because ah I had no idea about what matcha was supposed to taste like or what it really was but ah even though we both love tea. We are not here to talk about see we're here to talk about your speciality shall we say in archeology which we'll get to in a moment. But first of all. 02:45.35 Femke Mm. 02:47.98 archaeoteacup I always like to ask my guests how they first became involved with archaeology because so far we have had no 2 similar answers. Everyone has a very different path. So I think it's nice to show the the diversity. So what was your entrance into the field of archaeology. 03:02.69 Femke Um, so I think my my journey with archaeology started when I was quite young. So I always knew I wanted to be a scientist because I wanted to understand the world around me. Um, and then I remember going on holiday with my parents to friends as a kid. And we visited an archeology museum and I loved it and then in the area surrounding the museum. There was an ongoing excavation of some Roman stuff and then I just realized wait these people do this for a living. 03:27.62 archaeoteacup So very cool. 03:35.33 Femke If this is a thing you can do then? That's what I want to become when I grow up. Um, so then in the years following that I looked into what archaeology was and I got super excited because it mixes the humanities and the natural sciences and I always had an interest in both and I kind of didn't want to choose. Um, and then I thought that I would um I would get into late pre history because that seemed super fun and that's what what you? What I saw most at museums and then as soon as I arrived at university I absolutely fell in love with human evolution. So that's the the route I took and the rest is history. Or Rotter Prehistory yeah ah 04:15.30 archaeoteacup Or Prehistory ah and see if you're listening in and you also immediately thought of that horrible joke then you are in the right place. Good. 04:24.44 Femke Yeah, yeah, only downhill from here in terms of puns. Yeah. 04:29.56 archaeoteacup Ah, exactly. But and I find that really fascinating indeed that you mentioned already that archeology is the mix between kind of humanities and and natural sciences because I feel like most people don't really think of it like that they think of it more as kind of an extension of of history. But so you were also always interested in. 04:43.88 Femke Yeah, yeah. 04:47.61 archaeoteacup In the scientific aspect from the start or did you kind of try to find the science if that makes sense. 04:52.83 Femke Um, so I was interested as a kids I was interested in biology and physics and that sort of stuff and but yeah, it took me ah a bit of diving into archaeology to find where I could satisfy that interest so to say um. 05:05.53 archaeoteacup Earth down. 05:10.60 Femke But luckily there's lots of scientific techniques that are being being used and um and those disciplines like biology and geology also play an important role especially in human evolution studies. 05:22.69 archaeoteacup Yeah, and I think it depends so much as well. On which for example, when you're starting out and you're studying like which Uni you go to because I was at aberdeen uni for my undergrad and there the archaeology ah courses and and the archaeology department was in with the geology department. For example. 05:35.81 Femke Yeah, so. 05:37.53 archaeoteacup Like that's how they they classified them as like the geosciences whereas I feel like in a lot of other ones there with like in harning and they're with the humanities department. You know so it's a bit of a different which is incredible. 05:46.10 Femke Yeah, and then enlightened we're a separate faculty where there's a bit of an identity crisis because so I mean it is. it's yeah it's amazing um I think it's also the only archeology faculty in I think in Europe something like that. Um. 05:59.20 archaeoteacup I Think so too. Yeah in. 06:02.78 Femke But yeah, so we have more theoretical archaeologists. We have the sort of hardcore sciences part and and basically everything in between which is really nice. So. 06:08.47 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, which and I love as well because I also for for those as again I met femca at London University indeed that is how I I got to know of her research and I love that indeed you could sort of sit down in the cafeteria and then have a chat with. People who were doing the same stuff as you but they were doing completely different stuff so you know everyone was doing their master's thesis but everyone was doing it in a completely different topic like 1 person was doing teeth dating techniques and I was doing amber bead making and femca's yeah, burning things. Um, so it was ah ah. Ah, very interesting ah mixture of ah of topics I would say. 06:46.96 Femke I Yeah I find that super inspiring because yeah, you you get to interact with people who do something that is way outside your specific specialization. So. 06:56.31 archaeoteacup Yeah, definitely and it also just proves the whole thing that when people ask oh you're an archeologist So where do you like digging and you're going. It's not all about digging. Yeah yeah. 07:06.00 Femke Yeah I spend lots of time in Labs which is also fun but sometimes shall have to get outside. 07:13.41 archaeoteacup Yeah, true I I do that with my experimental archeology. So then I get I get to both without without needing to dig a hole I must admit I've spoken on this before about this I think probably people listening and will hate me because ah I I'm not the I like fieldwork in its place occasionally in the sun on a nice cool day. 07:17.19 Femke The. 07:29.13 Femke So yeah, and that that's the benefit of academic field work mostly I guess you also went to the Arctic but we tend to do this in the summer when the weather is nicer and. 07:32.80 archaeoteacup Um, yes, yeah, is nicer. Yeah yeah, but anyway good. Okay, um so sorry, got to be carried away I just think that it's very important to highlight that archeology has so many different. Facets and different topics within it and we will talk about this more in the third section as well. But of course this is a time travel t break. So if you could travel back anywhere in time. Where would you go and why. 08:05.43 Femke So this is this is always a bit of a difficult question for me because human evolution covers such a vast time span. Um, but I'm currently working on a paper where we explore different hypotheses about the earliest active use of fire. 08:21.80 archaeoteacup Oh. 08:22.30 Femke So I think right now I would want to to travel back about one and a half million years ago to see how homo erectus might have interacted with fire I think that would be really fun. 08:32.16 archaeoteacup Just yeah, oh and we'll okay well hang on I'll save that we'll talk about that again in a minute but because I think that's relates a lot to some of the discussion points that I have for ah for section 2 Um. 08:36.41 Femke Ah, so right. 08:45.82 archaeoteacup But thank you very much for joining me ah on this ah tea break today and we are going to do some time traveling indeed before we sort of talk a little bit more about femca's specialization. We're journeying back. Not quite that far. We're going back around 50000 years Night is falling the sound of cicaders fills the air accompanied by the occasional rumble and roar of various wild animals in the distance nearby. There's a group of figures huddled around a spot on the ground. It's unsure of exactly what kind of figures they are crouching low to watch 1 of the group in his activities we creep lower to see what's happening. And catch sight of a spark leaping from a piece of flint that is struck down with a loud ringing ping another strike another spark a grunt of frustration from the individual who adjusts the small bundle of dry grass piled carefully below his hands a few more strikes and suddenly a spark hits true and a tiny plume of smoke rises into the air. The group makes noises of excited encouragement as the finger lifts the smoking bundle of grass and caresses it in his hands blowing it until a bright orange flame flickers into life piercing the ever darkening sky. So today we are looking at fire which is a bit of a contentious one for this podcast because technically yeah. Suppose. It's not really an artifact but that is something that we will also be discussing further in the next section so we will get to that soon. But first let's have a look as always at the most asked questions on the internet courtesy of Google search and this was particularly difficult this time because. 10:14.35 archaeoteacup Trying to put in fire what fire where fire are fire into Google search comes up with very random results that are completely unrelated to this podcast but I thought that these might be slightly relevant. So maybe you can still help with these so the first question. Um, yeah was what is fire which I guess. 10:17.90 Femke Our fire. 10:27.70 Femke M. 10:34.11 archaeoteacup Fair enough. What what actually is fire. 10:35.94 Femke Yeah that's ah I think that's ah, a good question to start with um so fire is a chemical reaction between heat and organic fuel and oxygen it requires an input of sufficient heat to reach the ignition temperature of the fuel and once. Ignited the organic components of the fuel are transformed into carbon-rich char. So think of charcoal that you put on your barbecue and during this process co 2 and other gases are released and when enough oxygen is available the char and those gases will oxidize creating the. Characteristic glowing embers and the flames. Yeah, so that's that's what fire is in a nutshell. So. 11:19.24 archaeoteacup So the the the sort of color that you see is the basically the chemicals the thing one turning into thing 2 kind of thing like the yeah. Okay, okay, nice, excellent, perfect and then the ah the do well the next question kind of relates to this because it's well both of the next questions relate to this actually and they are. 11:23.68 Femke Yeah, yeah. 11:36.87 archaeoteacup Why is fire blue and what fire is the hottest and because indeed you have depending on the heat of the fire. It seems to change color all the time. So what's what's the deal with that. Basically. 11:47.99 Femke Ah, yeah, exactly So the main. Ah, the main thing relating to firecolor is indeed temperature which then relates to the completeness of the combustion process and the efficiency of the fuel and as people might know there's different. Ah, fire colors with increasing temperature. You have red orange yellow white and Blue. Um and the but the color also relates to the composition of the fuel. So For example, if you add some copper into the process then you get green flames. And so by adding different Chemicals. You can also create different colors and this is what happens in fireworks For example, so temperature and different chemicals. 12:30.80 archaeoteacup I see bitch. Okay, yeah, which I mean and that's also all very scientific. But I guess there's there's yeah yeah, but indeed it's nice that almost the the different colors are are a nice visual aid as well I suppose for. 12:38.15 Femke Yeah, yeah, there's no way around it. So. 12:49.26 Femke Yeah, yeah, and I mean of course they didn't put a temperature label on it. But I think they knew that if we want to do this task. We need to fire to look like this and then they knew how to achieve that. 12:49.93 archaeoteacup People in the past for example, who would have needed fire to be able to tell how hot something would have been. 13:07.12 archaeoteacup Yeah, which yeah because it's it's so for fire you basically need then organic component Oxygen Heat heat I Assume of of some sort. Um. 13:14.74 Femke Yeah, so that it's that's it's the call the fire triangle. So those are the 3 essential components. 13:20.35 archaeoteacup Oh okay, okay, perfect and how would the heat have been created because I mean now so I had in the time travel you had sort of a piece of flint. For example, I've also heard of of ah like the the the drills being is that something that that. Could have been used. This is what I see on on lots of Youtube videos but I'm not sure myself. 13:40.47 Femke Yeah, and um, so if you want to use flint. You need also need a piece of pyrites or Marcuides which is an iron oxide. 13:50.12 archaeoteacup Okay. 13:54.12 Femke Um, that creates the spark so you strike that material with the flints and then you kind of detach release small pieces and in the sort of the heat that is involved in the strike you produce sparks that then you need to aim at the the tinder to actually get that to ignite which is more difficult than you think. 14:11.95 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, yeah. 14:13.36 Femke Um, and if you want to go a different route then there's fire drills which is indeed a piece of wood that you try and drill into as fast as possible into a a wooden board sort of a baseboard where you then create with the friction. 14:26.94 archaeoteacup But her. 14:32.60 Femke Um, you create sort of a bit of a small ember that you didn put on a on on your tinder material and there's increasing. Yeah, so there's increasing complexity in the type of you you know a fire drilly have a fire bow and there there's. 14:37.61 archaeoteacup I see so you've already kind of created a little bit of something burning. Yeah. 14:50.85 Femke Some other things fire production is not necessarily my specialization So I'm sure there's there's more tools out there that you could use that are used in bushcraft or used by yeah extent huntergaterers. But yeah, this is sort of the the basic. 14:59.00 archaeoteacup And. Yeah, yeah, which is just so fascinating because indeed it's It's one of those things that then yes, you need the the Triangle The you know what was it Oxygen organic matter heat. But then to create the heat. You also need. 15:08.23 Femke The basic options. So. 15:22.36 archaeoteacup The perfect tools or the perfect combinationmodation and I imagine when things are wet. It also doesn't really work. So the. 15:23.96 Femke Yeah, yeah, so the the benefit of using flint and Pyrite is that at least your tools are don't get so wet. You can easily dry them because they' the the moisture doesn't go into the tools right? But if you use woods. Yeah then you're at. 15:32.82 archaeoteacup Right. The next. 15:43.41 Femke You're in some trouble. Ah. 15:44.57 archaeoteacup Yeah, and would I mean you've you've literally just told me that this is a new area of specialization. So I apologize if if you don't have the answer to this one but um, would the pyrite. For example I mean is that commonly found everywhere or would there have them been. 15:50.15 Femke No, and yeah, no, no worries. 16:00.57 archaeoteacup Locations where it was just not environmentally possible to make fire or ah, yeah, do do we know about that did ah. 16:09.50 Femke Um, I know that there's particular areas where it's found in abundance and then there's other areas where it's more scars so people would have would have had to look for the material and then assess the quality. Yeah. 16:14.93 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 16:21.84 archaeoteacup Oh okay I just. 16:26.18 Femke So It might it might have been more difficult to produce fire in certain areas. But what you can Also do if you have the fire either created by production or because you took it from a natural source if you make sure that you keep it going. You can. Transport Those little embers and then just start a new fire in a different location. So. 16:48.23 archaeoteacup I've heard about this because wasn't this something with utsi they the iceman that was found in Austria or something they but surely that oh okay, okay, but because I mean the embers but how. 16:52.33 Femke Yeah, yeah, but he also had a fire starting kit on him. 17:04.75 archaeoteacup Again I'm asking you these random questions because surely I'm just thinking of it I mean nearly all material that they would have used back then unless they've made like a stone or I guess a pottery thing to carry them in but surely the embers would just burn through anything that that they carried it in. 17:18.64 Femke Yeah I mean I don't fully understand how it this would have worked either. But I mean there are there are hunts of gatherers who do this and there are even groups that knew how to produce fire that then lost the ability to do that but still still are using fire. 17:29.25 archaeoteacup Okay, okay, interesting. Oh see it. Yeah, that's where I think that's where I need to go back in time to to just see what the first people worked out how to do that they were like let's just take this with us. Oh it burns through that. Oh what about this? Oh it bursts through. But okay oh this works. 17:42.21 Femke Ah, yeah, yeah, um, maybe did they just needed to time it writes this is wrapping up in ah in lots of organic materials and then I am be. 17:50.43 archaeoteacup Ah, okay, well. 17:55.12 archaeoteacup Run. 17:58.33 Femke Yeah, yeah, based it but by it by the time it starts to burn through your pouch This is where you have to set up camp which yeah, the fire dictates where you go. Yeah. 18:03.78 archaeoteacup Yeah, there you go? What's the fire starts then you can't stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, ah it has even more agency than we think in dictated the lives of people. So ok, Well so we're getting into into. Section Two territory Now. So I think we'll have a very quick break but we will be back soon.