00:01.28 archpodnet Checking it's picking up. Yeah, good so on which note let us move on to the next section so we do know a bit more about the carnis. Thank you Google search and thank you Samuel but perhaps you could tell us more about it. So we've already talked a little bit about kind of the physical evidence that we have for carnis and. I mean it sounds like there's not that much actually do we have other like written evidence for them. 00:25.33 Samuel Ah, there is written evidence and there is also um, visual sources. Um the written evidence were written by Greeks and romans people talking about the celtic tribes and they said most of the time that. They used the conics on the battlefield to um to ah to to put fear into the enemy and to ah make those make themselves strong before the attack. 00:50.12 archpodnet Are. 00:57.65 Samuel And also sometimes that is a bit weird. They said they make very high pitched notes with it and they they also said that there is a lot of this instrument on the battlefield but it does not refer specifically as ah, the connix they said. Ah, brass instrument in genero. 01:18.92 archpodnet Okay, So do you think that there may have been multiple types I mean what other now I'm speaking as someone who has absolutely no idea about this but I mean how many different kinds of horn brass instruments were there. Um, at this time Around. Europe or in the celtic kind of countries. 01:39.60 Samuel We we don't really know during the rade for the celtic tribes. It's mostly ah, the Konexs but during pre direct times in Ireland. For example, you have very many different horns bronze horns. 01:57.45 Samuel Ah, but Datala is way before the arrow age. Ah, but the problem with this ah instrument that it is that it can be remilted and it is a very expensive metal. So I think when people did not have the use of it anymore. 02:07.56 archpodnet Um. 02:12.61 Samuel They just remoted and make new objects in Bronze with it. 02:17.49 archpodnet Even back then the arts were just not appreciated. They were remelting down all these instruments. Um, but and indeed you mentioned just then and and we sort of talked about when we did our little time travel segment as well that they the assumption is that they were used. 02:20.11 Samuel Um, yeah. 02:32.99 archpodnet In battle. Do you agree with this I mean I assume that you don't use it in battle now when you have your replicas. 02:38.83 Samuel No I don't have a lot of fuse in battle with the konis. But yeah, that was um, what the greeks and the romans brought us and it it might be true. Um for sure. But also they didn't write many things and but thanks and with the discovery of Titenac archaeologists also think these instruments were used during ah religious rituals and ceremonies. Because um, the conics oftinac were found into um a gaulish sanctuary and also the cornices were destroyed by the goals before to be put it in in this sanctuary in the ground. 03:18.50 archpodnet Um. 03:24.80 archpodnet Interesting. 03:26.84 Samuel Yeah, like you know sacrificing um the the weapons to sword destroyed and put in the ground so the same way. So this is why archaeologists think it might also have been used in in for rituals and also very interesting on the under conies. 03:29.40 archpodnet Yeah. 03:40.74 archpodnet But. 03:45.90 Samuel The the mouth piece is trite not Curved. So It's very hard to play it. Um in in the battlefield because you have you need to have your head back bounced back ah to play the conics or you have to be too with someone holding it in front of you. You don't have a curve to my mouthpiece I don't know if you see what I mean? Yeah, yes, yes, So it's not very convenient on the battlefield and all the all the um. 04:05.86 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, so you have yeah you have to have your head if it if it's going to be straight up. You have to have your head like all the way. But yeah. 04:20.93 Samuel The the mousepeths of cornices ever found are straight. There is only 2 mouse spths found one in dantonacia and one in sanzano in italy and they are both very similar and both of them arerite and we never found any um curved mouthpiece for corninesis. But. Beginning of what I was saying 2 minutes ago I said also you have visual representation of the koics and one of the most famous is the one of the gandas strip called run. 04:45.35 archpodnet I hope. 04:53.50 archpodnet Ah, yes, mm. 04:53.84 Samuel Yeah, you you can see a military protest and 3 people think the conics at the end of the protest and um and they're playing the conics wheed their head. Ah right, not not buck. So like if the the mouthpiece were curved. 05:06.60 archpodnet Okay. 05:13.64 Samuel But this Koran is is a bit. It's a bit of an issue because it was not made by celtic tribes. It was made by a central European tribe I don't remember the name and it was made for ah celtic tribes. So ah, the people creating that. 05:24.78 archpodnet Oh. 05:32.72 Samuel Ah, design were not celts and we don't even know if they already saww before ah conics in use because when you get cloth and look at the the mouth and the mouthpiece of the conics. You can See. It's not very clear. It's a bit read shaped like if the artististice didn't New. Oh It was really made. 05:54.91 archpodnet That's almost similar to those all those medieval tapestries right of picturings of hairs and they just look like I don't know Rhinoceros or something like you know you can tell the artist was told. 06:03.43 Samuel Um, yes, yeah. 06:04.98 archpodnet Just do this animal. They have no idea what it looked like so I guess someone was told do a carmax and they were like oh okay I guess I'll do it this way which then with your replicas are you making them also them with the straight or with curved. 06:19.13 Samuel I make both ah customers scan older straight curved all both I also made um screwing system that that allows you to switch mouth this. 06:29.38 archpodnet Clever car and so when when you play the straight one because I'm just thinking from a brass playing perspective. It would be so hard just to get the airflow if you've got your head. All the way Back. So I mean when you play it with a straight-mouthed piece. Do you have it kind of lying flat instead. 06:42.80 Samuel Yeah, yeah, when I play on stage with my band I yeah have a leg holding the conics. So I played in front of me. It's very more convenient but when I make the demonstration at the cage age I played with my head. 06:57.86 archpodnet Um, boom. 07:02.13 Samuel Bounce back to show people that it was who it could have been used ah in time. 07:07.80 archpodnet Amazing. Oh that's really interesting and indeed that's really interesting that it was depicted by other people in a different way. So yeah, you don't know how much whether people maybe did see it and indeed they did the karenics worse straight up. 07:14.11 Samuel Are a. 07:23.46 archpodnet But then they weren't really paying attention to the heads of the players or whether they just assume oh, it's this really long thing therefore it must be played straight up fascinating because also now I'm just really thinking about this because the heads I Guess if you would play it when you play it straight. Do you play it. 07:26.39 Samuel Um, yeah, we don't know. 07:41.94 archpodnet The the head is facing up or the head like the head of the carnex is facing up or the head is facing down. Yeah, which because otherwise the sound would go into the floor So then ah, fascinating now I Want to. 07:48.46 Samuel Um, the head is fussing up. Yeah, it's way more interesting to have the sound with the head hub and. 08:02.80 archpodnet I want to try one how I days for one day one day I will try one. Um, and so yeah, no, that's really fascinating and then we've talked a little bit of already about about that. There are other kind of brass instruments and I guess I mean obviously nowadays you don't have like horns in battle but like in. 08:03.78 Samuel Um, yeah. 08:21.12 archpodnet Historic times and even medieval and and kind of pre-modern times you had still that idea of the heralds in battle kind of coming in with the horns. So I guess it has developed from that. Would you say I do think it's kind of the karennis because the Knis Yeah sorry karan. 08:28.80 Samuel Here here. 08:36.27 Samuel Um I don't know but it's very it's very interesting to see that brass instruments are still in used in the military pur I'm mean. 08:48.46 archpodnet Ah. 08:48.65 Samuel And they yeah obviously it was also back in the iron age and I think it also was during the Bronze age because of the Scandinavian Bronze dos and you know this s shape horns. 09:03.23 archpodnet Yeah, um. 09:04.54 Samuel That ah comes from the bronze age in Scandinavia mostly Denmark also a little bit of Northern Germany and um south of Sweden and Norway and these are very big horns. Ah, mostly found by pears. 09:12.70 archpodnet Are. 09:22.87 Samuel And they are from 1000 Bc something like that I think and we also think they were used in battle. So the the history of brass instrument during battles is started started way back in time. 09:29.93 archpodnet Um. 09:31.45 archpodnet Um, yeah. 09:38.74 archpodnet I Mean let's be honest, they are the most epic sounding instrument I mean I always say when we're listening to films I Always sort of nudge my friends and go That's the French arm in the background because it always just sounds so cool if you have an epic film soundtrack or anything. 09:43.95 Samuel Um, yeah, yeah. 09:48.85 Samuel And yeah, yeah, sure and you also have to to think that back in time. The the word was very most silent. 09:55.64 archpodnet It's always going to be brass instruments. 10:05.72 Samuel So having this kind of sound were really extraordinary. Yeah. 10:06.87 archpodnet Ah. 10:11.82 archpodnet Tray. Yeah yeah, it would have been frightening. Yeah to have that that loud and especially I mean out on a battlefield. But even if you were in any kind of inside or or kind of echoing area. It would have been even more so which yeah fascinating. 10:23.81 Samuel Yeah, a yeah. 10:29.70 archpodnet Ah, amazing. So ah, we've we've sort of I I'm just having a look through my my points that I raised and I think we've sort of covered most of them I'm just curious So you mentioned they're sort of associated with the celtic peoples and I mean we do know that they develop but this idea of the the Carnnix and the fact that it's this kind of long horn with the head on the end. 10:33.13 Samuel Um, okay. 10:48.30 archpodnet Do we see that at all after the sort of celtic cultural period or is is that something that kind of is is very much linked to the celts there think that's why I realize when I talk people that I basically just talk. 10:59.74 Samuel Um, sorry I don't really understand it could there something to that. 11:05.63 archpodnet As thoughts come into my head and I really should stop and think and actually form proper sentences so because the the karenex is indeed associated as you mentioned before with kind of celtic peoples. Um, and this idea that you said as well before with the the style and the design is very much. 11:07.19 Samuel And. 11:14.46 Samuel And. 11:24.11 archpodnet Kind of celtic style as well with the animal heads. The the boar head or the snake or or that kind of thing on the top. Do. We see that so so instruments with animal heads on them or or that kind of thing progress after the kind of end of the Celtic. Ah. I don't know what what you would call. It's not really the end of the celtic culture. But when when it kind of moves on and progresses in time. Do we see that continue or is it limited to the sort of early early celtic peoples. Yeah I guess that's an easier way to say. 11:45.54 Samuel Um, yeah, um. 11:51.93 Samuel Yeah, so do you mean? do we see an evolution of the conics in time. Yeah, and and no I don't think so I don't have in mind. Um. 12:01.50 archpodnet Say what? that was just saying in about 20 s some words. 12:10.70 Samuel Any other kind of horns with animal head at the top. Ah I don't think I came across that except for theconeses. Um, where the when the the the celtic tribes the celtic people. Ah. 12:12.40 archpodnet Look. 12:28.95 Samuel Were mixed to the romance and other cultures. Ah I don't know it's It's mostly I speak for from for the the French point of view where it it mostly became a Roman cultureter and um. 12:43.17 archpodnet Um, ah. 12:46.63 Samuel I Don't know I don't think these kind of horns were ah very in use anymore. Yeah yeah. 12:51.83 archpodnet Like just such a shame because they're so cool. He would think I mean do you do you have you think that maybe they were just I don't know the the Romans or or the next people who came and were conquering just sort of thought Nope this isn't this isn't in line with what we think or. 13:08.65 Samuel I Don't know I have no idea I have no idea and and also as I told earlier it it could be reilted you. You have the the mental reused. So yeah, and. 13:11.82 archpodnet Why Why do you think they stop being used. 13:20.59 archpodnet Um, oh which is just so sad to think how many possible carries as there were but no I find yeah I find that really interesting I Also always find it interesting I mean I use the term celtic in this podcast but that term in itself is. 13:27.37 Samuel Yeah, it's true. 13:37.72 archpodnet Very problematic I guess because there's this. There's so much diversity within it and indeed like you said they were kind of mixed in through all these things but it is interesting that you do have objects like the carnnics which are kind of they they can be associated with that concept I guess. 13:40.50 Samuel No. 13:53.48 Samuel Yes. 13:55.39 archpodnet The the celtic concept which is so always interesting. But um, oh sorry Okay, um, and I'm also Curious. So Ah I just wanted to ask as well. So you had experience as well before with playing brass. Instruments you mentioned a band already is that um, it's also something that kind of affected how you look at this at the Archaeology. So when you're creating Replicas does your understanding as a musician affect how you interpret. 14:30.00 archpodnet The archeology or is it sort of how how does that work in in your process of replication shall we see. Okay. 14:37.12 Samuel I Never played any brass instrument before the connics but I play ah a lot of other instruments string and wind instruments also and um. When I first recreated we we made the the conics based on the the the archquiological paper of titanac I had to tune it because it was not tempered as we say it's a musical term that means that ah it's. In the in the scale of the Western Modern music. Ah so I had to tune it ah to ah be able to play this instrument with ah other modern instruments. Otherwise it it will sound. Ah. False wrong. 15:29.00 archpodnet Interesting. Which yeah I guess is something I mean that's always something when they talk about kind of ancient music and all of that that it's such. Ah, it's so based on our interpretation or how we play it and all of that kind of yeah I didn't even think about the tuning. 15:35.45 Samuel Um. 15:44.24 Samuel Yeah, yeah, so every time I make a conics I I tune it. Ah, but not if if the customer wanted ah like the archaeological tuning I just leave it that way but because it's mostly for playing with where other instruments are I I tune it so I just have to cut. 15:44.28 archpodnet Side of things. 16:01.83 Samuel Um, the beginning of the tube and try and Sheila the the notes are are right? No I'm very careful. 16:09.24 archpodnet Have you ever gone too far and then it just gets to the head and you're like ah no, but that's also fascinating and actually I'm curious I'm said in our little time travel section that they're about two meters long how big are they though I'm sort of picturing in my mind two meters but I couldn't find any real. Yeah. 16:26.92 Samuel Ah, the the mean length of the conexs now. It's not two meers. It's one meter and seventy centimeter high something like that. It's usto as a person. Basically. 16:36.26 archpodnet Um, okay, yeah, good. 16:41.25 Samuel Ah, but you also have the the ears and the crest that can be very big but the tube itself. It's it's just us towards a person. 16:46.32 archpodnet Um. 16:48.72 archpodnet And the the way that it's made I mean I'm assuming like the head is hollow and is there any kind of shaping within the head kind of compared to the shape outside or. 16:55.69 Samuel Um, yes, it is. It's like a. 17:03.62 Samuel Yes, because ah there is the shape outside but you have to Hammer and the metal by inside to make the line goes outside so you have the the inverting design inside the head. 17:06.96 archpodnet Are. 17:18.60 Samuel And their head is working like a bell on the on the modn brass instrument It amplifies the sound and also the ears are also involving and the sound a little bit because they are ah vibrating and making some kind of reverb. This is why maybe. 17:22.37 archpodnet Um, then. 17:33.16 archpodnet Interesting and that must mean then that sorry no carry on Carry on. 17:38.40 Samuel Archaelogics Yes, or that and that is why also Archaeologists think ah that why their ears are so big on the conics. 17:52.71 archpodnet Um, which makes sense why you then put like horns and ears on a snake. So otherwise it would be a very boring instrument I guess because it would just be the the head but that must mean as well that every different head shape type animal thing. 17:53.81 Samuel Um, yeah. 18:08.22 archpodnet Also creates a slightly different sound. 18:10.88 Samuel Ah, yeah, but it's ah very mean or changing in the sound I would say ah because um, what what will be ah, very impacting the sound on this instrument is the the diameter and the the length of the tube itself. 18:12.98 archpodnet Okay. 18:24.79 archpodnet Okay. 18:27.70 Samuel But ah as I told earlier the continenttinal style of conics head almost sounds the same but the one in Scotland indexford is ah is a very different head and it's also a very different sounding according to Johnnkinny which is a scottish ah conics player. 18:44.70 archpodnet 11 18:46.19 Samuel Which play both he has a replica of tintac and also a replica of Deskord and it says ah they are very different in sound because of the head. 18:48.90 archpodnet Are cool. 18:54.46 archpodnet Well and i' because the the tintanac one like I say I can maybe just remember this tongue from the the scottish one like that must be at because the Tinttan neck one doesn't ta to me sorry one doesn't have anything inside the mouth right. 18:59.84 Samuel Um, yeah. 19:11.65 Samuel Now it's like an open mouth and and the the scottish one is more closed like ah like a human head. 19:13.52 archpodnet Yeah, so like that must make a. 19:24.90 archpodnet Um, I'm now I'm really curious but I will I will post a I will try and find a link of of that being played. Um. 19:29.89 Samuel Yeah, you you can. You can have ah you have on Youtube but you you just type John Kenny conics and you have ah him playing both of them and and telling this. 19:38.38 archpodnet Ah, perfect I will find a link to that and I will put it in the podcast ah notes so that people can listen to I want to listen to that now hear what the difference is I've always wanted to play one I think they had some I was at a conference somewhere and they had I can't remember if they were carnicks or if they were just horns. 19:45.50 Samuel Um. 19:53.50 Samuel A. 19:55.62 archpodnet But the long horns and I really wanted to have a go but there was a long line of people and I had to go back to the comments. But one day one day I will play a karax okay and step the recording.