00:00.30 archpodnet And welcome back to episode one thirty six like from its podcast and in the interim we've been joined by Dr Jesse tune from Fort Lewis College she's shown up so the the band is back together and ah Jesse is just going to be reacting to the news I like just the ridiculous things that Graham cock says. Jesse hasn't watched the episode. So for our listeners because we we have failed to do this like a ah brief outline of this episode. It's 30 minutes long he starts off with like how the americans got populated he talks about just the bearing land bridge theory which is we've talked about this before. But then he mentions the footprints in New Mexico and sarudi as being evidence of earlier occupations and it just so happens the same 2 guests that we've had on to talk about the white sands footprints and settlers of sarudi are here. So if you want context on our feelings towards those 2 sites. 00:48.46 Kanye West Um, ah. 00:53.43 archpodnet Go back and check those out so you know our opinions. Um, and then he goes into um he talks about colonial land grabs like he sets up with this place used to have a lot of indigenous people like they had culture they were here. They did all these amazing things and then they're all wiped out and so he he props them up. 01:11.27 Shane Are. 01:13.15 archpodnet Um, with claims of all this indigenous culture but then like kind of then uses it to say like archaeologist just start listening to indigenous people. But then he doesn't listen to indigenous people So in both the two sites so then moving on from Ah how? ah the of a very brief intro of. 01:29.40 Kanye West That's good flight. 01:32.81 archpodnet 1 hypothesis of colonization of the Americas he goes to poverty point in Louisiana does a cut 10 minutes there and then he talks about serpent mountains in Ohio and does about 15 minutes there and in both of those instances he mentions that indigenous people created these and they had culture and they were smarter than. Archeologists give them credit for which is an antiquated way. The archaeologists had talked about him really antiquarians which we've talked about on this show but then he doesn't talk about indigenous people. He doesn't talk about the oral traditions or what they have to say and often more often than not he talks about the iroquois and specifically to serpet mounds. Which aren't ancestral to the iho River Valley in 1 of their creation stories and he tries to like force those things together to support his mound because the iroquois have this great horn serpit legend they're serpent mounds as a snake Graham cock is wearing snake gardeners in a fucking mode lawn. There was a lot going on just just a lot. So just ah, just a brief background on what this this 30 minutes of of continual stream of consciousness consciousness by Graham of building an argument based on very thin. Threads of I wouldn't even consider evidence. It's one of those. Well if this is true then this could be true and if that's true then this could be true. It's like 1 of those really ridiculous building block arguments and as we've talked about on this show before like ah you know there's a couple strategies of pseudoscience that pseudoscientists use to build their arguments. There's 3 appeals to authority. 03:04.99 archpodnet Deflection of topics and inciting skepticism of the scientific process in this whole show. The episode that we watched he doesn't appeal to authority he says he's the authority he doesn't deflect topics. Just no, 1 ne's really challenging him or if they do they don't show it as David will mention. He really the entire show is him just inciting skepticism of archaeologists throughout the entire thing he says mainstream archeologists believe this and he uses like very absolute terminology in describing how archaeologists hate him. They don't like his theories or like they don't believe in Archaeoastronomy like there's he uses this as like all archeologists don't. Do this There's no room for like the debates within archeology that are going on the growth of archaeological debates. Um, he's very much a sith in dealing with absolutes here. Um, absolutely so Connor were we at with. 03:46.62 Kanye West I was going to bring that up. Thank you for saying it. 03:55.58 archpodnet What goes on down at poverty point in Louisiana. 03:58.80 connor So so he start he does like yeah like you said 15 minutes or so split between these two ah these 2 areas poverty point specifically he talks about how how it's just a huge structure and you can see far and does this weird defensive. 04:04.49 Kanye West Oh. 04:16.62 connor Throws in like defensive structure as like a ah potential thing for it and then just like discounts and runs away. Um, he says that like this he does contextualize poverty point as being unique and existing within the the time periods that we as archeologists and. At tribute to it. Um, but he also is skeptical and and thinks that there's continuous developing and kind of improving the site and that possibly the site's been in constant use for 10000 years etc um he then brings in the site manager and kind of. 04:55.50 Kanye West Um, ah capital rider. We weren't sure what he was um. 04:55.48 connor Brings. 04:58.64 connor Yeah. 05:02.55 Shane Um, it's funny. He's actually the person who runs the site is Diana Greenley it's interesting that she's not the person that's walking around talking to Graham Hancock at somebody else and so i. 05:12.80 connor It looks like someone from maintenance. 05:16.80 Shane Yeah I don't know like I could be like a so I have no idea what this guy's back is I just know he's not Diana Greenley um and so I think that's kind of interesting. 05:19.52 Kanye West Um, just the landscape Ri But yeah. 05:20.50 connor So. 05:27.27 Kanye West 1 05:28.77 connor Well there's like there's like constant coming back to him and Graham talking are the the guy talking and kind of that's his appeal to authority and gets these little snippets of kind of support Graham's theory this guy says something um. And he keeps doing that um through this whole first part and then he so he continues on. He's like it's old bubble blah and archeology is mostly right? and then he starts getting into these like ah kind of cosmological connections and the orientation of mounds and kind of goes on this. Wild tangent about all the locations that are pointed out by the different orientations of the of the mounds North southeast west solstice is all kinds of creeds are all kinds of stuff that exist in in time and space. But um. 06:04.13 Kanye West Um. 06:16.31 Kanye West Um. 06:16.41 archpodnet Yeah, he's like if you stand on this Mound. You can see the soltice solstice. It's like yeah, it's it's flat and it's a pyramid with ah with a platform like all of these places you can see an astronomical event or ah or alignment if they're the center of your isthmus. Like it was just bonkers right. 06:34.48 Kanye West Ah I think when I don't know if Bob talked about it on the episode. We had him on but I I asked him because he had said he went to a lecture where Carl Sagan was there when he was at Cornell and Carl Sagan it was a lecture about some like stone circle or a medicine wheel. 06:36.14 connor Yeah, ah. 06:52.45 Kanye West And Carl Sagan essentially is like calculated something in the audience and was like well technically like if you look in any direction in this wheel since it's a circle you'll find something it aligns with so like what's your point and like I was thinking that the entire time while he was talking with that because like it. 07:06.29 connor Yeah. 07:10.30 Kanye West That corridor does make sense like when you're standing on poverty point and you can see the sun but like you I I don't know man like it. 07:17.76 connor Um, yeah. 07:20.00 Shane I don't I don't ah Don really don't have a problem with it pointing to solstic alignments I mean I sent that article to you guys or Ken Saman it like laid out all these argued that there's like site architecture for all those lower. Lower Mississippi River mount ah Valley Archaic Mounds and he's he's got a whole entire argument about how they're like calling upon like by and integrating these things in space they're calling upon kind of history and their construction people do that mom. 07:48.69 connor Yeah, and that's and that's one of the points that he made as part of this and he eventually gets to these woodhen structures and talks about them and also same sort of alignment stuff. But then his ultimate kind of point from that is that mainreak archeologists. Don't acknowledge. 07:49.23 Kanye West Woman. 08:07.73 connor Or say that these things are connected or that there's arce astronomy occurring in in any sort of Mainstream archeology. Um, and then the final point is that. 08:17.10 Kanye West And yeah, he said that we refuse to accept it or something like that. Yeah. 08:20.23 archpodnet Yeah, and then Shane immediately sends us an article like linking to someone in a published report like he just mentioned of like archaeoastronomy and it's like and I've and we've seen that in Chaco other mississippian sites and elsewhere like Archaeoastronomy is is is a talked about this subdiscipline that it's. 08:30.13 Shane Are the. 08:39.91 archpodnet Going through growing pains at the moment because some people use it very haphazardly, but in other places it's like okay, cool makes sense. 08:47.12 Jesse Yeah I don't know the last time I was in a room with more than 2 southwestern archeologists and archeastronomy did not come up like that is something that a lot of archaeologists very much talk about and and try in various ways to build into their. 08:47.16 connor Yeah. 08:47.50 Shane But. 09:06.59 Jesse Thoughts at interpretations and like like like you just said, there's some growing pains with that. But yeah I mean that gets at this bigger question of mainstream or quote established archeology Wtf like I wish there was such a thing we would have. Less confrontational conferences and discussions amongst Archaeologists Sometimes I think if there was this giant cabal where we all agreed and we're you know, thinking the same thing. 09:32.60 Kanye West I'll. 09:37.31 Kanye West Ah, that's a really good point. It would be. 09:37.80 connor Yeah, and. 09:40.30 Shane Math would be really cool to be part of the illuminati you know it and ah like really cool. Um, you know I Where do I send in my application like yeah. 09:43.28 archpodnet Yeah, words. 09:50.26 connor Yeah. 09:52.25 Kanye West I'd get laid a lot more and do cocaine. It would be awesome, but. 09:53.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, like I I mean we've we've said this but we've we've mentioned this every time we're on this comes up. It's like I wish there was some worldwide organization controlling archeologists because at least they'd pay us to be quiet like sign me up. 09:57.95 Shane Ah. 10:02.45 Kanye West Um, sorry. 10:06.77 Kanye West Um, right. 10:07.44 connor Yeah. 10:09.16 archpodnet I have debt to take care of like I'd like to be part of a global conspiracy that sounds awesome. 10:12.10 Kanye West Um. 10:12.43 connor Yeah I Want to be part of an inside joke. 10:12.63 Jesse Yeah I don't think archeologists. Yeah I don't think we would collectively be as in debt as we are if this thing existed right? Look at our bank accounts. But. 10:20.87 Kanye West Um, ah. 10:21.50 Shane Um, oh we're like first going in the not of. 10:22.97 connor Yeah, yeah, yeah. 10:25.66 archpodnet But 1 thing and so poverty point is 3700 to thirty one hundred Bp so before present. So just subtract 2000 that gets you seventeen hundred to eleven hundred BCE it's in Louisiana 1 thing that he talks about is that he mentions like there's no documents about how they wrote it. It's like yeah, no shit there weren't documents. Dude it's oral histories which he also doesn't mention but there are some like I did like a quick Google search and came up with like 4 articles. 10:47.53 Kanye West You know. 10:55.23 archpodnet Of other peer reviewed papers talk about oral traditions of Southeastern tribes relating to poverty point specifically to owls for some reason I Guess there's a lot of al Jasper production at poverty point. 11:03.96 Shane Um, they do yeah they got these little owl like bead effigy things that are really freaking cool. 11:09.99 Kanye West Oh. 11:12.54 archpodnet Owls are Devil birds and therefore they're devil people. No wonder that Devil worship was extinguished. So yeah. 11:17.78 Shane Um, okay yeah. 11:18.30 Kanye West Yeah, fair enough 1 thing I would like to add Connor mentioned that he was speaking with the man I called the capitol rier which I feel bad for saying he's probably a lovely gentleman was. If you watch it and especially if you watch any Netflix document or discovery channel documentary or history documentary watch the interview between him and this person and you can see how heavily edited it is for him to just say we don't know yet or like we don't know there was probably 10 minutes of talk on the camera there that the guy explained a very valid point. 11:47.94 archpodnet And he was flustered like visibly flustered like for the rest of that interview. He's like calm chill like this is poverty point and then it gets that last segment he's like well we just don't know like his he's he's clearly defensive. He's worked up Graham had clearly been grahamcock had been putting him through the ringer. 11:51.10 Shane Um, yeah. 11:51.96 Kanye West Yeah, he did look clustered. Yeah. 12:04.86 Kanye West Um, yep. 12:06.50 archpodnet And that's the segment that they grabbed from them is like what they wanted for. 12:09.21 Jesse Um, Kent can this be a verb from now on grand caking. 12:10.98 Shane I kind of feel like if we see this yeah Graham cocking him. Um I kind of feel like if we see this cat at seac ah, we probably need to get him a beer because like you may have just been the guy that he's like. Like everybody is like who's going to talk to Graham Hancock and everybody's just like stared at him and he's like son of a benchch um and had to be the guy. Well. 12:32.98 Kanye West Um, yeah, was he forestry was It's a forestry on a shirt. Okay, okay. 12:36.93 connor So well yeah, and and it it's said staff it said staff manager like he was one and we'll see we'll see this is ah I think this is a It's an interesting counterpoint to what we'll see in the serpent mounds part. 12:41.76 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:43.63 Shane He's probably works for Louisiana State Parks 12:54.22 connor Where they refuse to have the conversation. Yeah. 12:54.34 archpodnet Yeah, he stands out front the gates and like reads off an email where the staff at serp mountains are like essentially like if Graham Hancock's associated with this. We don't want to talk to him. Because what he wants to talk about is not at all in alignment with our interpretation of the site what archeologists interpret the site when indigenous communities interpret the site and he's like see they're trying to censor me and it's like well did you just not see what you did to that poor asshole in poverty point like. 13:15.22 connor And. 13:24.53 archpodnet Like do you not like that's why they don't want to talk to you like if you read between the lines of that and you like they don't want that to be 1 of their employees is yeah that poor dude shows up to seac like god help him. 13:25.62 Kanye West Um, yeah. 13:34.20 Kanye West And Jesse I said this? oh. 13:36.44 Jesse It's a self-filling prophecy basically where people like Graham Hancock so talk about the field of archeology the field of whatever being against them and they spend a career decades upon decades. Talking shit about people in that field to the point that yes, all of a sudden archaeologists. Don't want to interact because we've seen decades of this guy talking about how terrible archaeologists are right? So it's this weird yes self fulfilllling prophecy that. He and other people like him have have ultimately created right? So like how do you How do you get out of that death cycle. Basically. 14:19.10 Kanye West Yeah, and we had this talk when we're watching it I think personally think they fucked up by not letting him. Do it, especially someone as big as Graham Hancock I understand why you wouldn't want to do it and like I refuse that one show too because of like what they were trying to get me to say. But like with somebody who like has a whole journalistic career of like the archeologists are out to get me and things like that like if you tell him send him an email like that of course he's going to read it on the show and that it only makes him look better to the people that agree with him. But. Shane said like what else do we do just ignore him and like I really don't know what to do they they probably made the right call not having him there because he does vilify them but I don't know it only helps his case in my opinion vote. 15:04.94 Jesse Yeah I mean it. It comes down to this problem right of him making these shows trying to interview people now all over social media. He's trying to debate archaeologists and anthropologists and other scientists you know head to head and. Think it was John Hoops I just saw declined an interview with him and said something along the lines of I can't debate metaphysics with you using science and I refuse to do it using any other method. So no I'm going to politely decline your offer to be. Be interviewed like you you can't have these types of debates because people are operating on different different planes using different vernacular using different quote unquote data sets. Um and you end up just talking around and past one another and I think that's kind of. 15:47.30 Kanye West Sure. 16:00.79 Jesse Missing some of the the bigger points that I think we're probably talking about here. 16:02.34 Kanye West Um I agree with that? yeah. 16:06.35 archpodnet So yeah, 100% but it doesn't get into like crazy poverty point sets up Serpent Mountain so he doesn't talk about like an ancient Apocalypse. He doesn't talk about a catastrophic event. He kind of uses it to set up like. Archaeologists don't buy in the archeology Archaeastronomy. He even makes a quote that like archaeologists don't want any other science involved like they don't talk to Astronomers. They don't talk to astrophysicists like that's how he uses poverty point in particular like here's a site that has these astronomical events. It has these hinges. 16:27.39 Kanye West And. 16:44.16 archpodnet Let me tell you how archaeologists aren't talking about these things because they are selfish self-focused and non interdisciplinary which anyone who's listened to this show like we've had multiple if not most of our guests are interdisciplinary scholars that work outside of just the. Compounds of archaeology even the field of archaeology itself is built upon the the use of other ah fields of studies laws methods and practices like that's we're kind of that's our field we use geology in particular is a big one at which we take um, a lot of um thought and theory from. 17:19.80 Kanye West Some parts of archeology start with Geo Archeology and some start with zoo archeology like yeah I don't know who. 17:20.87 archpodnet And so. 17:20.89 Shane Um, what is it. 17:22.88 Shane Um, and. 17:30.52 Shane Um, wasn't it the big like 1 of the biggest stories from last year was the people who were trying to date that viking settlement in Newfoundland they like they they. They were using the combination of tree ring dating and solar flares or solar anomalies to pin down to like the exact year that it would settled so I'm like. 17:50.43 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 17:50.66 Jesse Yeah, yeah, yeah. 17:55.72 Shane There's a good example and that goes all the way back to like ae douglas trying to find solar flares and denjo dates and stuff like that the hundred years ago. Um, yeah I don't know I want to see like this astronomical stuff and the astronomical alignments and everything I still think it's just. Much more mundane and that you've got hunter gatherers on seasonal rounds just tracking seasons. It's like what poverty point is is a big place where people came from all over they brought stuff all over from Eastern North america how do you know when the party is. Like how do you know when everybody's showing that's like it's it's just a way to track seasonal time and like people do this all the time. 18:35.34 Kanye West Um, well ah. 18:41.33 Jesse So um, having not seen this and actually not really following much of this new show is this only about North America because what changes said also is. 18:49.95 Shane Um, see this is really yeah, it's really easy north. 18:50.93 archpodnet This 1 episode. 18:51.43 Kanye West This episode. 18:59.70 Jesse Ah, direct explanation of Stonehenge when a hunter gatherers know when the party is right and people came from all over what was at that time an island to join the rager right? So how do you know that? How do you know where to go right? That's the exact same thing that plays out. 19:05.54 Shane There. 19:14.55 Kanye West Um, you know. 19:18.36 Jesse Time and time again in caluls places around the world. It's not overly complex. We don't have to come up with these um, really wild ideas and theories to explain it. We we see it playing out all over the world. Yeah. 19:33.50 Kanye West I. 19:35.67 connor Well, we're gonna ah. 19:35.97 Shane So like it's how you feed um, good. How do you feed all the people at the party and it's like probably because poverty points at a major flyway for birds. That's a seasonal thing. When does poverty point go offline. It's like when it's major flooding when does major flooding occur that's a seasonal thing. What know 1 like knowing when seasons are about to turn over would be pretty damn important if you're hunter gatherer doesn't have to be catastrophic apocalypse. What's it? Whatever the. Total of apocalypses. Um. 20:09.84 connor Yeah, well and and then he he really just his end point of this is that we consider hunter gatherers and people in the past as just like dumb dumb hunter gatherers. We don't ah attribute this sort of complexity to them and that's kind of his jumping off point. Into serpent mounds. So at this point we're gonna end this segment and we'll catch you in the third segment where we go. We go into s snaketgaters and serpent mountains. 20:35.21 archpodnet Oh yeah, the alignments aren't right.