00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to episode 113 of a life ruins podcast reinvestigate the careers of those living life in ruins I'm your host Carlton Goverburn I am joined by my co-host Connor johnnan. As we mentioned last week David started an unexpected journey to go kick out some lizard. He pulled an all-nighter with some cave trolls and needed to catch up on some sleep so he will not be joining us today unfortunately. However, for this week's episode. We are rejoined by Dr Jamie Goodall who none appeared on the show in episode 58 and then again an episode um 72 with Dr Maddie Mcalister so we're really excited to have ah you back on the show. Dr Godle how are you doing this evening. Okay. 00:36.85 Jamie Goodall I am good ah still kind of waking up from a nap but I don't usually nap because my naps are like 4 or five twelve hours long so 00:48.92 connor Does this still count as a nap if it's 12 hours long or is that just sleep. 01:11.53 Jamie Goodall You know we just need this roll with it. 01:05.14 connor Yeah, um, so since last time we had you on I Guess some things have happened. Maybe some you know since yeah, so what have you been up to since we last chatted with you. 01:34.83 Jamie Goodall Yeah, a few things. Ah. 01:45.81 Jamie Goodall Ah, well I kind of I think got a promotion. It's very weird the way that the government system works So but in your Gs level. There are steps and I was a Gs Eleven. Love. Step 3 and now I'm going to be a Gs twelve. So I skipped 4 through 10 which is nice. 03:08.36 archpodnet Now is your title like senior pirate researcher or is it still just gs 12 or did they give you something cool on your name tag a business card or. 02:48.13 Jamie Goodall I mean I get an office instead of a cubicle now. But we're only in the office one day a week so it doesn't really feel different full story in though. That's okay. 03:40.26 archpodnet Fair enough, excellent. Well that's still enough great getting in office. 02:59.30 connor I hope I have a random question. What does what does your day look like as a historian working for um, for the Navy right? Army army sorry. 03:31.19 Jamie Goodall Army. Oh yeah, who oh you would wouldn't you and and given that like my most recent society for military history conference presentation was on the Navy So ah, but yeah I work for the army instead. 04:13.10 archpodnet Well, you'd expect it to be the Navy based on what she researches. 04:09.99 Jamie Goodall Um, it's I don't know it's very weird. Ah in that it's generally the same from day to day although the division that I work for in my directorate we handle tasks primarily for headquarters department of the Army. So We do a lot of. Um, quick turnaround research requests can't really say much but we did assist with some of the naming commission stuff. That's been going on with the the confederate named bases and stuff like that. Um I'm working on a history of the office of the Administrative. Ah. Assistant for the secretary of the army from I Guess None to present. So um, yeah, it's just researching random army stuff and putting it together so we don't do like the long form histories though that like. Our history's director. It does So my day can be kind of random. It does. 06:48.86 archpodnet It fair enough at least it keeps on your toes. So when we first had you back on. Had you on back in episode 58 we talked about a book that you had recently published within that year titled pirates of the Chesapeake Bay from colonial era to the oyster wars. Um, and that came out in February of 2020 and you just published a new book. So we're recording this may none but you just had a new book pirates and privateers from long island sound to Delaware bay just came out in mid-may so how long have you been working on on this piece and. 07:09.99 Jamie Goodall Yes. 07:59.60 archpodnet What was the inspiration for um, continuing your work on pirate history and archaeology along the eastern seaboard of the United States and 07:37.69 Jamie Goodall So I I didn't start working on it immediately just because there's a so much more. Um, like work to to sell your book that not realized so um and it was weird too because we had to pivot really quickly since my book came out like. Pandemic so all of my signings and talks and stuff that were in person either got canceled or we had to you know switch to virtual so I was dealing with a lot of that for for at least five six months before I really dived into to working on this book. But um. I really just felt like I had so much material left from my doctoral research and you know just stuff I came across when I was doing the research for the the chesapeake bay book and and a lot of it had to do with New York primarily but um you know also. A lot with Pennsylvania which I was really interested by that that Philly was apparently like a pirate hotspot which I was not as familiar with as I was with New York city but so I just I spoke with my editor and we just decided that I should pitch it see what the the press thought and. They were really pleased with how well things went with the first book so they decided to give me another shot and so we just went for it. Um, and it is primarily focused on New York and Pennsylvania but I do talk about the jerseys before there was a New Jersey and Delaware so we. We focused it on the Mid-atlantic I guess is is how you would phrase that. 11:37.32 archpodnet You gotcha and do you have another one plan for like new england like from cape cod down to whatever just continuing this regional trend and just connecting books with 1 another and. 10:50.18 connor I Think anyone. 11:25.50 Jamie Goodall I mean funny. You should mention that I'm actually contracted right now with the history press I have a new editor because my editor that's outside of her geographic region. So she partnered me with the the editor from the new england region and I am doing a. Kind of microcosmic study of Black Sam bellamy to tell the story about pirates of new england with a focus on Massachusetts and that should out next year -ish it is yeah it's due to my editor in december we'll see how things go of course with pandemic times and all that. 12:49.80 archpodnet All right? Oh that's a quick turnaround. 12:38.23 Jamie Goodall Stuff. But that's the initial deadline to my editors. The draft is due in December so we'll see. 13:24.60 archpodnet Excellent. 12:41.12 connor And I was just gonna I was gonna insert like a a bad joke about how no one's surprised that there's pirates in Philly because Philly people are kind of pirates anyway. Um, but now that I've alienated at least a small portion of our our listenership. Um, so what. 13:09.49 Jamie Goodall Ah. 13:19.60 connor So so this book is kind of the accumulation of you you go up down a bunch of rabbit holes when you're doing research right? and you accumulate knowledge about a bunch of different stuff and sometimes it all doesn't fit into this either a Ph D or whatever book you're working on and this is this new book is just kind of the product of. 13:42.55 Jamie Goodall Yes. 13:58.26 connor Some other avenues of of history that you went down and were like ohh that's kind of cool ohh that's interesting. Oh cool I'm I'm I'm glad to see that it like I feel like those avenues that I when I do it myself doesn't actually come to anything and it like exists in like a Google drive folder that I never see again. But. Glad that yours is coming to like. 14:48.93 Jamie Goodall Yeah, but I mean that was sort of the thing was I just had this googledar folder of like random shit from the ah digital archives and stuff and I was like I don't know if I'm ever goingnna get to use this but I'm gonna hold on to it just in case and it just happens to work out that I found a use. For it so and it was kind of easy to pitch it just because ah one of the most infamous pirates Captain Kidd is from New York like had lived in New York like the whole like got his start in New York so um having his name ah on my. Ah, proposal probably helped a lot. Um. 16:49.26 archpodnet It fair enough. So with with your new book. Um, the one that's that's dealing with the mid -atlantic generally are the time periods kind of similar to what you were writing about in the chesea pay or or do we start seeing piracy and privateering beginning. Earlier or like what's that difference because there is historically different economic differences between the chesapeake bay and the midatlantic. So how does that shape the sort of privateer and and pirate activity that is occurring in in the midatlantic. 17:20.11 Jamie Goodall Yeah, so I started actually a lot earlier in the chesapeake region. Well I say a lot earlier I would say like thirty years earlier than generally just because we had that situation between William C Clayborne and sort of this. Territorial dispute between what would be the colony of Maryland and what was the colony of Virginia whereas in New York because the english don't have control of New York until the 1660S after they take it from the dutch at. Piracy that I look at starts a little bit later than what I did with the chesapeake bay book and so it's not that the economy of New York starts later. It's just under different control and the dutch operate economically quite differently than the english did in terms of the dutch were more. Would say sort of free trade oriented whereas the english is very like monoppolization. That's why they set up the royal african company because they don't want people trading with the portuguese and the french for enslaved people. They you know set up the east indies trading company. And the west indies trading company type stuff so that they're not their people aren't trading with the dutch and so whereas the dutch are just like well trade with whoever has money. So um, and they also have a very different relationship with the indigenous populations of the area than the english do so it was it was interesting to I kind of. Start with that transition in New York from dutch to english control and sort of how that creates a system where piracy is sort of a natural element of the economic development there just because it is kind of a chaotic start. So. And piracy is kind of a chaotic business so it just kind of made sense. 20:58.80 connor So so the piracy was not as prevalent in like a free trade system where there's not really any restrictions or anything like that and it kind of increases and starts because of that. 21:32.41 Jamie Goodall Ah I would say so yeah I mean because there I've only read one book that really dealt with dutch pirates and that was ah Virginia Lunsford's book on ah Dutch. Piracy and privates hearing but it just seems that they're not the the greatest number of pirates are not Dutch. Um I would say the vast majority of the ones we come across are usually english or french um, and so it just doesn't seem that the Dutch. With this sort of free trade idealized economy. They don't have a government that is tacitly supporting piracy the way that you have like the english governors. For example, who are like you know on the one hand they have to. Do what the crown wants on the other hand they have to do what the people in their colony want because you know they don't want to be killed ah and they also have to do what they want because they're not getting paid very much as a governor so they want money so you know they're balancing these desires in a way that government officials. In ah in the dutch system aren't having to to do. 24:42.34 archpodnet Fair enough. So as as we transition from New Amsterdam to New York um and the english take control of um, the dutch colony within the the Mid-atlantic who's kind of the none pirate to show up on the to show up on the scene to start causing mayhem and. 24:49.81 Jamie Goodall I don't know that there's a first so to speak just because it sort of seems like it all kind of like takes off at once in terms of people who are engaging in piracy. Um I know I sort of start the book. Um, looking at sort of how we go from this chaotic beginning and and how fortune and misery really sort of develops quite quickly. Um I think I start. Ah, with the quote about Samuel Burgess from his his trial and I apologize if you hear squeaking in the background. but but I start with Samuel Burgess who is a very interesting guy. He gets his start on the blessed William which was actually commanded. By Captain William Kidd and I believe this was before kid becomes a pirate. This is what sets kid off on becoming a pirate hunter to start because Burgess and the other crew members are part of this mutiny that take place on the blessed william. Um, basically they leave kid ons shore they name this guy William Mason as part. Ah he was part owner of the ship with kid and they named him commander and they're like all right? We're gonna go pirating now because everything else has sucked so far and um, you know they were just very. Apt for for adventure. Um, and they do pretty well initially they they're taking some spanish ships. Ah and they actually land in New York I want to say around sixteen ninety um and because New York you know by sixteen ninety it's fairly well. Established as an english colony by that point. Ah, their commander is able to obtain technically I guess a privateering commission to attack french vessels from governor Jacob Leisler um and of course at this point though the. Legality of their commission is debatable given Jacob Lesler's background and so you know I start the book with this kind of chaotic situation between lesler and then there's people who hate Jacob Hesler and ah so they're fighting against him and his. Pirates that they call them. They're like they're not privateers. They don't count. Um, then after they get rid of Lesler Benjamin Fletcher comes in and then fletcher is really fond of pirates and it's just it's just one of those situations where there's just madness from the getgo. Um. 30:18.27 Jamie Goodall And so it's if I had to pick a start like the fun person to start with is Samuel Burges just because when you think about the mutiny of Captain Kidd you just think about Captain Kidd you don't think about the actual people on board who did the mutiny and i. I find burgess an interesting guy. 31:37.60 archpodnet Fair enough. Okay so what are they primarily like with this questionable commission for privateering against the French What sort of raw materials. Are they attacking the the French for. 31:30.35 Jamie Goodall At this point I think a lot of what they're dealing with is ah material from the fur trade. So the furs that are being sent from New France back to Europe um, so that's kind of like the the hot ticket would be the the furs. From that trade. But they're pretty open to to taking whatever it is that the french have on board if that happens to be enslaved people then they will do it if it happens to be silks or linens. They're perfectly fine with that. Um. But I would say what makes them the most money is probably at least in the earlier part the the furs from the fur trade. 33:37.40 archpodnet Okay, well I think that's all for now with this segment I will be right back with episode 113 we'll be right back with episode I 1 13 with Dr Jimmy Goodall right after these messages. 32:59.48 connor And get it out of here.