00:00.00 connor Welcome back to episode None of a life in ruins podcast we're gonna talk this segment about jewels and mountains so looking at you Carlton but that's us that's a smoking joke. 00:09.90 archpodnet That hey man I think David's the one going into mountains I know it is I'm trying to flip it on David with the dwarf with the dwarf that we did. Yeah. 00:43.78 connor He's doing some other sort of Lizard Lizard space research up there in the mountains but we wanted to talk about continue this conversation and what you're going to do forward on what you're kind of studying now. So do you mind. 01:01.90 archpodnet So because because specifically we just ended that last segment talking about the required joules which is a measurement of energy needed to penetrate at least big game like bison and that they were only able to produce something in the 30 s range which what can we kill with but like. 01:16.28 connor Go ahead and. 01:41.66 archpodnet You specifically brought us up to the mountains to test how much how much Joules How do I word this like we we Joules of energy that all of us could produce by throwing darts at ah at a target and so please walk our listeners through why we did it. 00:57.97 Devin Yeah. 01:13.60 Devin Jewels of energy. 01:23.93 Devin Yeah, okay. 02:20.92 archpodnet What did we come up with and who's the champion. Jeweler. 01:38.57 Devin Ah sure. Yeah, um, so we we well I guess to start off there was the bison experiment. We've already talked about that and we got up to about a hundred joules of energy and that was Donny does throwing a. Ash dart at a bison. Fortunately, that dart was not that well designed. It was like really flexible in the front and so it didn't penetrate that. Well so bison 2 is coming and I've got some better. Well-designed heavy darts but this all kind of plays back into to the questions that was trying to ask. Up in the mountains which is you know, just how much what? what can we? We think of as like a lower range of energy that you can hit with an net level or that you can get to with an nat level and can we get above that recommended range for hunting elephants. And so I designed a series of darts including some of the ones that we're going to use on bison None some heavy darts. Ah some really well-made ones with like ah None the one was pretty heavy. Yeah, um, ah we the darts range from. 04:39.80 archpodnet And fuck where was that one really heavy. 04:14.41 Devin About a hundred grams hundred Grams two hundred grams um in between 2 and 300 I don't think we quite. We may have hit 300 on that third one and then ah ah, an over 400 gram dart like a 430 GramDart 05:36.14 archpodnet And I had to use my other hand when throwing it to like lift it in the air before I'd threw it because I couldn't throw it regularly like that was ridiculous I. 04:48.61 Devin That's a big heavy dart. 05:06.87 Devin Um, yeah. 06:06.88 connor That was really interesting being so I was on most the time I was like on the side of it near the Target kind of helping retrieve the darts and watching all the flight patterns and that one it was just like because you obviously have the is it spline is that what it's called where it's. 05:39.85 Devin Yeah, and could call it spine. Yeah. 06:41.86 connor Goes up and down galling. Yeah yeah, um, but it it didn't do like that wiggling at all. It was just like you know there wasn't like that like ah, kind of in profile it was It was interesting to watch. 05:59.85 Devin Yeah, the the floods right by spine were we're talking about the flexure of the the dark shaft our shafts have to be flexible to to maintain straight flight be throw because you're not just like taking the. But into the dart pushing it perfectly in line with its ah with its length your your arm is kind of arcing up and falling so just like an arrow has to be flexible to our has to be flexible. Um, well so I I did look at ethnographic examples of. Ah, dart weights and they range up above actually none for australian native australian darts some of those apparently even go above None so we weren't even throwing like as heavy as as you could. but but None of the the points here is that with darts if you want to get more energy. You have to go heavier and actually this is this is true of of human throwing in general there was ah a simple experiment carried out in the 70 s where they took a bunch of different people and had them all through. Throw balls of like None different whites and the lighter balls typically flew faster but the heavier ones always carried more energy and of course it also depended on the strength and skill of the throne so that the highest energy was was achieved. With you know the the most skillful not just like it's about throwing us about finesse too. It's not just like all muscle the most skillful and the strongest throwers and the heaviest balls. So we're trying to do the same thing with that like what? what. Energy can we get to so our court recruited you guys because I wanted to get a range of ah different people throwing these things and and got donny up there as well and through these darts and we hit about 124. 11:07.96 archpodnet Who and who threw that one and who what was the None highest. 10:20.45 Devin Jewels of energy that was donny. 10:37.61 Devin Carlton I think you may have hit 171 11:40.22 connor I was going to say if you just threw a David out there I was gonna I was gonna laugh out and it was David sorry Carlton. 11:35.70 archpodnet Yeah, if it was David that would have been. Ah. 10:59.27 Devin Yeah, so um, Davis so we're throwing part of the problem here is we're throwing in front of cameras in the dart I had a camera looking from behind and then you had to throw it across this backdrop in front of this other camera There's markings on the dart. So from behind I'm observing to make sure that the darts are staying pretty straight because if they're like way skewed in flight. It's going to affect the the readings because you actually have a scale on the dart self. It's the only way to do it. You have to calibrate that video to the frame rate of the video in a scale. You know that's in the the path of the thing that you're tracking and the only way to do that consistently is have the scale in the dark shaft itself and have the points on the dark shaft. So I'm making sure they're flying straight and they have to go in front of that camera and David just kept like lock lobbying that big heavy None over the the backdrop. But I caught one of him throwing that thing in front of the camera and it was he got some pretty impressive energy with it too. So we all kind of did I mean we all we all were able to hit like pretty close to the recommended energy. For the elephant. Ah, and None thing we should be clear about is that these are the recommendations for modern hunters who may have different um you know goals or. How do you say it aspirations I guess in terms of like how your projectile is going up perform frequently. We're after like complete passro shots and what I noticed on the bison was that you definitely didn't have to hit that those recommended juules to to be lethal to the bison. If you wanted your projectile to consistently be able to to like bust through ribs and penetrate through it's a good idea to to have those high jewels but um, you know so on an elephant I think it's possible that there is more leeway than what we're. Anticipating, especially when you have sharp armatures because if you have really sharp armatures. They're able to cut through that even that thick hide and then once you get through the hide and through the the muscle tissue underlying it if you're but in between ribs or you're. Projectile skipping around ribs you get into the body cavity. The organs are actually way less resistive. So once you get through that rib those the skin if your projectile is well designed and it's like it doesn't have like big bumps along the shaft and stuff it's going to slide right on through. 16:27.88 Devin So yeah I think we may be underestimating these things ability to to penetrate through an often. 17:23.78 archpodnet Well also like I think it's important to note this, you know this whole thing happened. We had my graduation party we were able to like it just so happened David and Connor and others were in town and you were able to round up all these atlatal throws who haven't thrown an at Lal in in quite some time and. Throwing darts. We didn't practice with for the none time and also changing the weights which changes the mechanism of how you throw them and we were able to in this like really quickly put together experiment that was I mean not. 17:13.57 Devin Right. 18:32.16 archpodnet But we you know we've done you've done this experiment before we we knew the mechanics it was just like we were able to round up a posse really quick and and illustrate. You know the point of this wasn't to record penetration depths. That's the point of bison experiment too. But we're able to initially show that we're able to throw with amateur level at Loudle throwers. 18:03.67 Devin Right. 19:12.20 archpodnet Dart throwers that we can hit the necessarily joules required to take down a modern elephant and so that's different than like if we were habitually using atlatls. We had our favorite dart. It's art equipment like we're all using Devin's equipment that we're not necessarily familiar with and rape were able to do it. 18:28.90 Devin Yeah, absolutely yeah. 18:56.11 Devin Um, yeah. 19:51.20 archpodnet Um, and so take you know next step is is bison experiment take two where we're using the same darts that we used to do with the jewel to to record juules and in that experiment right? Like you already mentioned in the first one that we' done which we talked about on this podcast up in Montana there's a Youtube video about it. 19:18.93 Devin Yeah. 20:25.84 archpodnet Be able to record Juuls Donnie was able to get to a hunt over a None with darts that weren't that weight that you had just explained if you want more jewels you need heavier darts. Um, and so this next experiment. So it's fully funded like it's we're green. Go go ahead to to do it. 20:09.33 Devin Not quite yet. So that's interesting I I tried to crowdfund it because granting agencies don't like to to give you money to experiment on a dead animal. You know. 21:24.28 archpodnet Did you apply to the Colorado Council professional archeologist scholarship. There's one that's specifically for experimental stuff. Ah fair. But so if got you. But if what when this. 20:45.91 Devin Ah I won that one um a while bag. Yeah, and I doubt this what I used for my controlled experiments. Yeah. 22:01.26 archpodnet Bison experiment take 2 happens. We'll use the darts and we're going to specifically target some of the questions that were brought forth by Aaron at all to test them and be like well this is what we found when using it under conditions with an animal carcass. These are the darts we're using these are the tips. These are the throwers. These are the at lats because your first bison experiment that I will attest you to my dying day. Was highly controlled in the manner of of um, the technicality of it. The fact that every dart was numbered. Every point was numbered the throwers. The atlatles, the penetration deaths like your data collection was significant that I that. I'm not seeing when I read these papers when you share them I don't see that same I just don't see the same and so I mean granted they have supplementary appendixes that I you know. 22:38.47 Devin Yeah, right. 22:56.13 Devin Well. 23:46.70 archpodnet It's just interesting and I'm like really excited to hope to take part and in in part two because it's like this is a really interesting question and um and and you know like our advisor during your graduation mention. It's like you know he he put your research in this analogy of like. Devyn's research is is a small window on this you know giant glass mosaic. But when you actually look through that window the view that you can see in terms of the questions that you're asking and answering. Expand your perspective that cover other windows viewpoints if that if that makes sense. It's like it seems like a small niche but what you're able to get out of it has drastic consequences for what we're able to see in the archeological record as it pertains to you know, subsistent strategies which for the majority of our. Behavior on this planet subsistence is like priority number None like reproducing priority number None right? and so you're answering these questions that have significant consequences for how we understand human behavior for the majority of of human's history on this planet over none. 24:40.13 Devin Um, yeah, but. 25:05.81 Devin Yeah, yeah, and we're gonna get. We will get penetration depths. Those will be meaningful but but let's think about the question I mean the question is can you kill an elephant or can you kill a mammoth. 25:57.88 archpodnet As Hunter gatherers. 25:43.33 Devin With an Apple all chart. Um and let's think about the critique because we've we've already you know talked about their controlled experiment and what that actually tells you we've talked some about the other experiments. They've compiled um and the same way that a a goat. Not an elephant a bison isn't either. So so we need to to think and I do think that like the controlled experiments are are extremely useful. It's really useful to compare results of like a controlled lab experiment. The kind of naturalistic experiment that we're trying to do with the bison I think we need ah to None way to approach this is to look at what's the skin like on ah on a mammoth What's the resistivity of that and can we reproduce that in some way and then you could actually you know. Reasonably approach this question in a lab because if you got if you can with a darts you know if we can say you can care. You can throw a dart with up to you know one hundred and forty Joules or something like that a well-deign one. Um. And we're able to shoot that in a lab type setting and it goes and you knows punch straight through a simululate that's supposed to mimic ah a mammoth skin. That's much that's actually something you can use. So even if we can't you know. Do an experiment on an elephant is going to be. You know, challenging for those those media reasons I I mentioned people really really like elephants even after they're dead. Um, but you know right. 29:53.46 archpodnet Well, we don't have many of them. 29:16.61 Devin That's that's another point and and elephants also are different from mammoths and this at this paper. Actually if you want to dig into like the anatomy of mammoths they do a great Job. You know talking about the anatomy and and ah and nailing down those resources. So. It's a good. Review of that topic. Yeah. 30:43.40 archpodnet Well to close this out real quick I mean for those that are listeners that are in archeology. We do find clovis points with mammoth carcasses. So how does this paper you know briefly describe. Why do we find Clovis points with mammoths. 30:30.50 Devin Well, um, so that there's ah, there's some issues here where maybe that we're finding close points with mammoths because they punched through past ribs frisn said that the ribs are like rounded in the center. More where the lungs are and that's actually what you would target because it's more likely to hit the rib and skip around it in this paper. They talk about the quote Unquote Picket fence of ribs like the the way they present the whole argument is is um, it seems kind of like they're really, they're really trying to push a view. Um, but. But why is it that we're finding these clovis points with these big animals. Why do they have you know different impact fractures and that sort of thing. Um, it is that we find clovis points with impact fractures they are they are projectiles. There is kind of ah ah, a movement now in archeology and in paleing and archaeology to to say well these weren't actually that effective or these weren't even often these weren't even projectiles These were actually knives and so maybe they're finding you know dead mammoths and scavenging them. Read a book called Hunting Caribou subsistence hunting on the edge of the boreal forest to get an idea about the usefulness ofavening dead animals out on the landscape that you find all the time. 34:09.33 archpodnet Well Donny did ask us to go up to the woods with him up in the mountains and wear loin cloths and when we asked about food. He said it's okay, we'll just scare a couple cats meaning we're just gonna. 33:44.90 Devin Um, yeah, right right. 34:35.94 archpodnet Run at Mountain Lions away from their deer kill I was I wasn't sold on that on it optimism and like excitement to like I'm go taking all these kids up. We're just to go Boogie Woogie with Mountain Lions and like it is like what. 34:08.11 Devin Ah I've never once stranded to a mountainline of a deer like oh hi sorry to interrupt your real never have movie once I don't know maybe it happens Johnny all the time. Um, but there's a again we want to think about the tary. This is a big ass animal right. And it it had to be hard to kill these things and so there must have been even if you were going after them regularly you know hunting them on a regular basis. There must have been a greater chance that you're going to lose that projectile in the body of that animal I mean it's a big huge animal. Um. How would you like to get a ah mmoth like. 36:20.44 archpodnet I Not dude I I had my fill with the bison that was a long day that was fine. 35:41.41 Devin Yeah, Well I mean I can gut a deer like you just roll your sleeve up and you stick your whole arm up and there'd like to your shoulder and pull out the guts with the mammoth. It's ah or with a bison. It's a different deal and I can't imagine trying to get a mammo. So So there's. There's probably a greater likelihood that you're going to be losing those projectiles in the bodies of those those animals and because they come off in the Inside. You're never going to find it or because the animal escapes So That's worth thinking about you know what? we're finding around bison kills. Lots of broken points. Lots of dead animals you know bison just dying left to right because they they drove them into arroyos and that sort of thing and their weapons were effective and they were dropping them on the spot and in a lot of cases. It seems they were they were retrieving their projectiles and then deciding if they wanted to rework them and keep them there. Thrown away if they're impacted after that so that ah that could all play into into this. You know the differences in Impact damage and and why we're we'reining those more frequently around elephants but those are just some ideas to to explore and think about yeah. 38:55.60 archpodnet Excellent man. We really we really appreciate you coming on sorrygo ahead. David Chris Chris edit that out Conor. Go. 39:09.14 connor Oh yeah, no guys say Ah yeah, thank you so much for for coming on and chatertting with us Again. We Love you know I Love picking your brain or you know hearing about all this stuff because it's It's very interesting and. We're really excited to see where this stuff goes in the future and I know I will volunteer the name for the second one we're going to call it Ralphe go csu. 39:05.41 Devin Ah, yeah, my my None experiment was on a hog that was for university of Arkansas and or Basco is a hog and then my my dissertation was on a buffalo. So. 39:58.00 archpodnet That's funny. We got a survey today asking see students what we wanted to name the next ralphie. So. 40:34.24 connor So you got to go to a university that has a mammoth as a there they go um good. 40:32.26 archpodnet Right? Yeah, excellent, well Devin before we end the show. What are a couple sources books articles videos that you would recommend for anyone interested in ancient weapon technology. We already have Aaron at all 2021 39:48.50 Devin Ah, to teacher. 41:03.40 archpodnet Um, hunting caribou subsistent hunting along the northern edge of the boreal forest and then we'll put a couple citations of um, your work and whittake Dr. Whitaker's work and for anyone listening if you you know Ah, really go through Aaron at all. That's actually a really good list of sources that do all this. So if you're interested. Definitely go through their citations and. And read them like you know, actually read them. But what else? what else you got for None 41:00.11 Devin Well I think ah in terms of hunting. Of course, there's there's George Frisn's Seminole work which is survival by hunting I can't recommend the survival by hunting or a. Hunting taou book enough I ah really love that one of let's see what else. 41:59.63 Devin And it's hard to think of any that are like really focused in on the topic of of ancient hunting hunting with ancient weapons. Um, but you know for bows and arrows the traditional bowers bibles. Those are really good resource. You know 1 thing to consider is that. 43:04.86 archpodnet Fair enough now. 42:37.63 Devin If you're if you're interested in this stuff, especially if you're an archaeologist and you're interested in studying it. You should really try it. Um, and there's there's a number of different resources on on how to do that and so don't look at works like traditional bowers bibles or. 43:36.26 archpodnet Yes, yes. 43:16.45 Devin Jim Ham's book on native american bowse arrows don't look at those and think ah those aren't you know by some professor I'm not going to read those. They're chock full of useful information. You can you know, look at them with a critical eye just as you do academic work and and pull. What's useful out of them. But actually using those resources to try out the weapons and then go hunting just like frisin said you know if you're if you're an archeologist you study ancient hunters you should really try to hunt some because it'll totally change your perspective and and you know I'm not saying just use a bow and arrow or something like that you can rifle hunt too. It's. 45:03.22 archpodnet And 100% agree 44:31.35 Devin It's very useful to to get out there on the landscape see how these animals behave see how they respond to you and just the whole process of like finding them butchering them getting the meat putting it in your freezer. You know there are elements of it. That's like that are really closely in analogous in the past a lot of them that aren't.. It's just it's a useful thing to do to really you know enhance your perspective of of what this is like. 46:20.90 connor That definitely and so work where can people find you and all your cool stuff that you do on social media. 46:14.14 archpodnet Plus. 45:43.30 Devin I you can find me at a http://r.ahatlatl on Instagram and basque maker at http://what.com those were the 2 places I would recommend. 47:06.80 archpodnet Excellent, always appreciate you coming on me so everyone we just interviewed Dr Devin Petigre you can find him on Instagram at ar dot out lottl and his website which is phenomenal has a bunch of resources and also to make out lots at http://baskermakerrotlatle.com 46:24.55 Devin Pleasure. 47:46.28 connor The review rate review do the thing not gonna I'm not Goingnna plead with you I'm not gonna offer you free stickers I'm going to play the bad cop right now that those to play good cop say we'll give you free stuff now just give us a review you listen to our crap. Do it. 48:06.00 archpodnet And if you're listening to us on the all shows feed please please please consider following us our individual page a life and runs podcast that helps us grow our channel and allows us data that we can give to sponsors and advertisers so we can. You know, keep funding this. Um, so please please please listen to our show individually and with that we are out. Well everyone. It's your favorite time in the episode. Um, if you ever make it this far. Connor what is your joke for us this evening. 49:18.64 connor So my significant other told me to pick up 6 cans of sprite at store when I get home I realized I picked 7 up. 48:44.23 Devin At at. 49:38.70 archpodnet Thanks man, all right route.