00:00.00 Joe Williams Thank you. 00:01.88 Alan Hey out there in rockyard podcast land this is your host Dr Alan Garfinkel with Joseph Williams our guest scholar of the None fires corporation talking about the manner in which you might try to. Protect respect and conserve a sacred site and None which is also a prominently important rock art site and this is the none segment and so we're going to really drill down to the rock art site itself. So Joseph Williams can you paint us a word picture of what this rock art site is all about and why it might be so important. Um in a general in a in a general way. Go ahead. 00:49.34 Joe Williams Ah I Ah one word X It's it in my opinion. It would be the most extraordinary largest panel. There is that I've known. And learn to study. That's as little labyrinth as it is I know. 01:12.60 Alan Um, and when you and you say panel What kind of a site is this is it Ah is it a painting side is there is it a drawing site. What is it. 01:23.20 Joe Williams It's a picel. It's a picelgraph site painting site if you will bittographs and and it anmonmorphic and and and umomorphic figures 1 of those figures called the teddy bear. 01:25.90 Alan Okay, ah, and and can you Okay, it did ok and. 01:40.12 Joe Williams Ah, Teddy Bear image um or the teddy bear man if you were the tddy bear painting which is one of the catchy phrases. 01:45.54 Alan Ah, yeah, is it is it? Yeah I know is it. Um, is it monochrome a single color or is it mini colors. 01:56.91 Joe Williams Monochrome Actually that I happen to notice for for the most part. Um I I want to say to more than one color. 01:57.18 Alan Ah, okay. Okay. 02:08.13 Alan Okay, yes, sure. 02:10.57 Joe Williams Ah, mainly because you know if you want to consider white a color. It's more of a shade but you know the black and white. Ah you know as far as shades are concerned as opposed to colors colors itself. 02:20.76 Alan Right? so. 02:25.70 Joe Williams I'd say the only color that that I have been able to actually see or recognize is is the color red so you know bright. 02:29.75 Alan So it's black white and red and um and I have never been there I have to say honestly I've probably I've I've probably written something about it in several different contexts. 02:40.84 Joe Williams So it's. 02:49.19 Alan Always that as a synthesis or a summary of previous research also in the in the handbook of the ko soon and also in the instead of an overview in the fence post. There was an article that I put together as well. Go ahead. Please Joseph. 02:53.87 Joe Williams And I. 03:03.67 Joe Williams Yes, yes, as a matter of fact, yes you have me there. It's a polychromatic polychromatic paintings is what is what you know they're considered so when it comes to the rarity. 03:10.23 Alan Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 03:23.35 Joe Williams Of the type of pictographs that these are um, it's actually quite rare actually to as opposed to um, pecked pictographs that are picked. You know so. 03:26.35 Alan Yes, okay. 03:40.88 Joe Williams Paintings as opposed to pictographs are are quite different when I learned to study these So I'd say that. 03:44.27 Alan Yeah, how? But how But how But how big is the panel. How tall how wide. 03:53.96 Joe Williams All together as far as the panel itself I'd say it wouldn't be more than maybe like a 6 by 6 or maybe 8 by 8 but how high up on ah on the rock that it is you know I I probably probably want to put it more up there about 8 to ten feet 04:01.70 Alan Okay, yes. Oh yeah, So it's prominently placed in sort of an elevated position correct. 04:13.66 Joe Williams You know and height from from them from where you stand. So um, you know it's right, right? And you know there's ah, there's also you know a lot of how I say there's a lot of things about that can and. On the whole when it comes to on the environmental aspects of it. Ah, you know when the when the creek is running like right now. It's we've we've had such um, you know such bad weather regarding rain being here or in the midst of this. 04:36.85 Alan Um, yeah, ah. 04:52.94 Joe Williams Drought for as many years as we've had you know the creek back. There isn't running. It's dry right now. So but when we do have any any form of close to regular weather. The Springs are alive back there and that fresh water that's running as as creeks through that canyon. 04:54.48 Alan M. 05:09.77 Alan To. 05:12.58 Joe Williams I've I've actually you know come to realize you know there. There are some rare and amphibious frogs. You know there's amphibians that that grow in that are alive and yet if you went back in that Canyon right now you'd find it dry as a bone and. 05:19.28 Alan Ah huh. 05:27.12 Alan Ah, ah, amazing. 05:30.31 Joe Williams So it's quite a mystery actually to to see the canon come alive with the fresh water even with you know up of amphib So but now I think that. 05:36.72 Alan I'm sure absolutely well I have a I have an at go ahead. Please. 05:43.56 Joe Williams I think I've actually discovered a couple of Artesian wells there. That's um. 05:47.59 Alan Wow! Well I I have ah an anecdotal story about that site that I've talked about in in an article you want to hear it. 06:03.90 Joe Williams So yes, absolutely. 06:04.95 Alan Are you there. It's as as most as many of my anecdotal stories are I think it's kind of kind of funny kind of humorous. So there's it's gentleman with the name of Jack Spragg and he's a. I'd say renown student of rock art throughout Kern County and he helped put together the rock arts section in um, the handbook of the kowayau and his wife's name is Gail Spragg and she was an archaeologist who. Got her. Master's degree from Cal State Bakersfield and she is rather familiar with this site that we're talking about and I called it for some reason or we were talking for some reason and um. You know I was talking about what I knew about it, etc, etc and she said did you see the bear and I said oh yeah, yeah, you know I've seen that Teddy Bear image we talk about or that that small little spirit figure that looks rather like. Some sort of ah a small bear. She goes no did you see the bear I go um, well yeah I mean I know that there's you know zoomorphs you know Zoomorphic figures that are bears and we see. 07:35.16 Joe Williams Sorry. 07:39.97 Alan We see in at other sides like at Tomulconney itself it tomacone state historic park she goes Allen did you see the bear I go Gail what are you talking about says the rock itself is shaped. 07:59.64 Joe Williams Yes, actually. 07:59.77 Alan Like a bear I go oh really and I yeah I said I I said that's rather striking isn't it and she sent me photographs of that and damn damn Daniel. It looks just like. 08:14.15 Joe Williams It. 08:19.26 Alan The visage the profile of a bear the nose the body you know, etc doesn't it. 08:24.10 Joe Williams Yes, absolutely actually it does and that's one things I happen to notice you know haven't been born here in the valley like for example, Saddleback Butte you know it's the shape of the saddle. You know so all a lot of these rocks and places even in tomulconi. 08:37.79 Alan Yeah. 08:43.48 Joe Williams When you go walking on the trails there in Tomal County State Park Um, you'll find these areas where where it looks ever ever so much like ah some form of an animal or or being these forms of rock but you have to be facing them. 09:00.62 Alan Definitely. 09:01.78 Joe Williams You know you have to be facing almost certain way to see him and actually in that particular configuration and so that's 1 thing I've learned here is notice these things. 09:09.80 Alan So One of the things. Yeah, So one of the things again just like with tommiconni and with the resource we're talking about um I think and in the broad patterning of rock art sites. Sometimes even I'd say. Somewhat frequently. You will find that sites that have some sort of special form akin to an animal will be the sites for emblazoning setting up the. Rock Art both pictographs and Petrolyphs have you found that. 09:52.54 Joe Williams Yes, as far as as far as that is concerned being able to recognize these forms. You know they were. They're considered gifts I mean from a native me. 09:58.58 Alan Yeah, yeah. 10:05.40 Alan Absolutely yeah, it's it's it's it's gifts from the creator exactly and these are the rocks are alive. They're sentient. Yep exactly. 10:08.20 Joe Williams It's like it's like ah an eagle feather finding an eagle feather on your trail. Yeah, if if anybody even knew how important an eagle feather is exactly so so that's what I learned you know. 10:23.49 Alan So. So so yeah, so being a native American and I didn't mean to get into this subject but you're kind of alluding to it um being a native person and given your understanding what makes rock art Important. What is it about rock art or what do native people believe about rock art. 10:44.20 Joe Williams And well it's the spirit of the of the person or the family for the most part that that that puts themselves into these areas and. They put themselves into these areas by by making a form or a painting or an edging like a graph and these areas are ever so special for centuries if not Millennia to the families that that. The product of these areas they learn by the same legends. That's been told to them and so these areas they they start to become these areas for gathering for storytelling and so a lot of times these paintings from a native perspective my perspective I have a different perspective as a cherokee because as for for the Cherokee nation as far as a Cherokee nation is concerned. They have their story to tell it as well and so you know but when you learn about the hardships that. 11:47.90 Alan Yes, sure. 11:57.29 Joe Williams Natives of this nation have actually been through the hardships. You know that makes these places there even even more important you know that that these places are left as as a remembrance of this time period and so it's like these. Spaces and places and that are frozen in time that you can go and walk into and learn about. But when you walk into you walk into with the respect of learning of that culture of learning of that spirit that built the place and None place. So. 12:33.10 Alan So very interesting. Ah go ahead. 12:34.33 Joe Williams So That's what's interesting This particular this particular place I guess was naturally made so wasn't actually you know made as far as by hand like like ah you know like in like a mesa. Building or any brick building or anything like that. These are this is a natural natural place that was that was made most likely by geology to simple geology geophysics that that allowed that to become what it is and that's. Ah, being a very large rock and I believe that's the same in the case of Tumu toulconi when you have these very large rocks. So You know this these are the places This is actually you know in my opinion I don't mean to use the term end of the trail. Um. 13:17.86 Alan Sure. Absolutely. 13:32.20 Joe Williams When it comes to that from a Cherokee perspective but this the trail is what really that these paintings I've learned are all about is the trail that comes all the way from the Yucatan of mansula and the trail that winds all the way up. 13:46.71 Alan Sure. 13:49.93 Joe Williams Through baha California up here. This is like almost the end of the trail for the cool when it comes to the kuau. 13:53.89 Alan So there's ah ah, there's an there's an inter got you. So there's an interconnection between the various Indian groups and what they believe in terms of the thread that connects people, cultures places, etc. 14:07.93 Joe Williams Exactly yeah. 14:12.50 Alan Now I want to I want I yeah right I want to mention a couple of things though before we close here very shortly that Sandy Rogers and also a native Owens Valley piute wrote an article about. 14:13.29 Joe Williams It was a trail. It was an actual trail of. 14:32.23 Alan Rock Guard cites as storyboards and that was one of the things you mentioned that these are images sometimes that are they're they're um. Documentation of the stories. The key stories for for native people. They can be creation stories. They can be sacred narrative. We use the term mythology I don't like that. But. 14:54.72 Joe Williams Yes, yes. Yes. 15:06.99 Joe Williams Right? right? exactly and like for example, this particular site that we're speaking of you know is is as been studied to the point and and from what I can see as a interpretation as this was like turned into. 15:07.68 Alan But you know what I'm talking about. 15:26.65 Joe Williams From a milling station a milling area for the families that live there to a hunting lodge and so a lot of the paintings are in regards to Hans. So this this was a very important part of of going on a hunt. 15:28.73 Alan Ah. 15:46.16 Joe Williams So when the hunter he put his painting up that was his mark for successful hunt for most part So that's a lot of times. 15:55.20 Alan The other two items go ahead the other 2 items before before we close but well we've got about 2 minutes and I want to give you the last minute or so to close on your own is that there's a couple of terms that I use when I talk about rock guard sites. And um, one is I call them memory palaces and places of personal immortality and those were the concepts those were the word pictures that I think I got when you were explaining some of this does that make any sense. 16:27.90 Joe Williams Right? Yes, absolutely I'd have to agree with you doctor completely, especially on the on the later on the latter that's for sure when it comes to immortity. Ah, mainly because you know these this is ah paint. This is a painting that's been deemed to be over 2000 years old and I'm not sure I'm not sure on record what what painting around is even 2000 years old that you can see so it's quite amazing to see how well preserved it is. 16:47.70 Alan Got you. 16:53.30 Alan Ah, exactly So if you it is very much. So so if you were to close and um tell our audience something that you think was ah is a key takeaway or. 17:11.78 Joe Williams Well I think I think that the key thing when I was young when I was younger you know there was this book I know I remember reading is called walking softly in the forest. 17:12.70 Alan Or sign off for something that they should learn or understand. 17:31.10 Joe Williams And and it it was a way I think of for you know scouts boy scouts that kind of thing to learn how to hike and whatnot in the woods and walk softly without disturbing what's round and keeping everything Preserved. So. You know nativesteps dot org is is a website that that I've just put up that we are just now constructing and trying to figure out how to how to publish and nativesteps Org. Native steps meaning just like in those walking softly in the forest steps you know to to to be ah but to take those steps ever so softly and understand what. 18:03.83 Alan Got you. 18:12.48 Alan Definitely I I get your drift. Um Joseph it was ah an absolute honor and privilege to have you on the rock guard podcast for our None episode and. 18:23.20 Joe Williams Thank you! There's There's definitely. There's definitely things that's worth more than money That's for sure and this to me is it is worth way more than the dollar bill and that's mainly why I'm involved. 18:31.79 Alan Amen. 18:37.54 Alan Mainly your motivation I got you? Thanks! Thanks for thanks for tuning in on the rock art podcast see in the flip flop gang. 18:38.58 Joe Williams Yes, thank you. 18:48.82 Joe Williams Thick.