00:00.00 archpodnet Right? Go ahead and. 00:00.00 Alan Welcome back. Okay, welcome back to your rock art podcast with Joseph Williams of the None fires corporation and also ah your host Dr Alan Garfinkel so Joe we were just touching upon. Some of the ah political and infrastructural issues that were necessary to sort of deal with a resource. Maybe you should pick it up there would that be okay, yeah, no I think we're. 00:32.20 Joe Williams So yes, thank you, Thank you very much I think that I think we were starting to hit on the topic of environmental factors regarding this particular area and so on account of the. 00:38.53 Alan Go ahead. 00:43.89 Alan Yes, but yeah, but even before that but even before that we were talking about what was necessary to sort of a precondition to sort of interfacing. 00:51.00 Joe Williams Ill I. 01:01.32 Alan With a major corporation. 01:01.40 Joe Williams Exactly yes and and it's for for the most part a large corporation of this magnitude I should say which is almost a fortune Fortune 500 company. There is ah really no way.. It's just a private citizen to try to reach out and talk to any of the um, any of those who actually have any any actual control mainly because it's all needing to go through board of. Directors just just like our corporation and ah, they're not going to listen to you know, just your typical private Citizen. They're too too much into a business level of thinking and so what I figured I do after dealing with Edwards air force base and the sites that are out there. 01:40.88 Alan Sure. 01:57.80 Alan Yeah, so you know now how did you have? How did you have so so how did you connect with Edwards. 01:58.76 Joe Williams And Edwards Air Force base yes and it's a very difficult. So that actually happened ah through a masonic temple that that I belonged to a masonic fraternity in Roseman and some of the officers which I happen to be an officer as well and in the fraternity that. 02:12.84 Alan Okay, ah her. 02:25.52 Joe Williams Actually got me in touch with um I believe it was the captain of Edwards Air Force base that allowed me on to be able to see the sites that are there. But if it wasn't for that affiliation that I had have on a on a political level. For example with the masons I I don't believe I would have even been able to really have that chance to see the sites on Edwards and so they they they kind of taught me a little bit of a lesson on how to handle of the politics of of the business of preservation and so when it comes to a large core. 03:00.40 Alan Um, ah yes, please. 03:04.10 Joe Williams Comes to a large corporation. You know I figured the the least we can do is at least have property on their fence line which we do and be and be a corporation ourselves so that we could speak on an equal level to them. 03:10.69 Alan Right? Yes, so those were 2 preconditions and those were were met. Um, you had to yeah I guess you had to find the piece of ground that even would be available for sale. 03:22.48 Joe Williams Yes, yes. 03:29.94 Alan That you could purchase. 03:30.60 Joe Williams That that was hard enough in itself. Yes I actually ended up reaching all the way out to I believe it was Louisiana or something to be able to get that property and so it was actually ah an investment property. But. 03:33.18 Alan Right. 03:38.98 Alan Ah. 03:48.97 Joe Williams What I did is I Just simply you know turned it over as a corporation. Ah you know for the purpose of preserving the site it being that we're so near it and in hopes that we would be this future stewards of this site for for this corporation. 03:53.97 Alan Right. 03:59.29 Alan Right? right? yeah. 04:06.76 Alan Yeah, sure. 04:08.21 Joe Williams This larger corporation that I'm speaking of you know as a corporation working with another corporation to preserve this site I thought would be all in all in good all on good terms to be able to work that way. So that's mainly why we are a corporation. So. 04:21.81 Alan So yeah, yeah, so you had to research and identify ah property owners and potentially those that would sell to you and that would be physically contiguous or. Located in such such a way that would help in terms of managing monitoring conservation protecting a rock art site correct. 04:49.30 Joe Williams Correct correct and and there's only so many being one. So. 04:56.38 Alan Very very very very creative. That's a very very creative way of doing things I have to hands Ah, hats off to you? Um, you know that that is that is that an individual like you and a small group of people can do. This is. 05:03.56 Joe Williams Thank you, Thank you? Thank you doctor I Appreciate you. 05:14.83 Alan I Don't know if it's nearly miraculous but damn near um because we're talking about you know, go ahead. Okay. 05:18.26 Joe Williams I could I could say it was definitely with Janice's help you know Janice Williams ah the basket weaver there for the quiets of which you knew very well and you know yes if it wasn't for Janice. 05:29.55 Alan Yeah, so she helped. 05:36.34 Joe Williams Really on a cultural level I don't believe that I'd be as close as I am to the cho if it wasn't for chance. 05:41.68 Alan Now how did you associate with Janice Williams in the sense of how what was her role in terms of trying to structure this relationship or or sort of posture. The 7 fires corporation to help protect. 06:00.22 Joe Williams I I had asked I had asked if I may speak with Harold her brother and this was you know just before harold left and found that what happened was I missed that opportunity. 06:01.55 Alan This rock card site. How did that go. 06:07.24 Alan Yeah, okay, yep. 06:18.32 Alan Okay, got you. 06:19.25 Joe Williams Um I had learned that that herald you know? ah Herald wasn't around anymore and so that I at that point in time learned you know on Facebook I believe it is she had an account and and. 06:24.19 Alan He passed. 06:35.10 Joe Williams She had asked me to be friends with her and I didn't have a single problem at all with that and we became friends on Facebook originally before we met in person and it was all over. 06:36.66 Alan Okay. 06:42.82 Alan Okay, got you so you meet her in person you have friends on Facebook but how did how did it? Operationally, what did she do or what did you do with her to cause this interesting development. 06:55.30 Joe Williams Or I had to witness. So thank you I had to I had to actually you know walk with her. You know to the museum and tachepe to tommo you know, listen to the stories about Tom oconny. 07:10.63 Alan Oh I see okay. 07:14.11 Joe Williams That she told but you know the stories that she would tell by her basket weaving and even the baskets that she weaved or wove these these baskets you know they were stories in themselves and learning really. 07:21.90 Alan FH. 07:26.56 Alan Right. 07:29.66 Joe Williams On a cultural level where where she where she sat as an elder. Um, you know I learned I learned about other family members and that's how we all kind of gather together with the same effort. So. 07:32.86 Alan Got you so she she? Ah she allowed you to be ah, got you So she allowed you to be immersed in the ah culture that the native culture. Ah. 07:47.79 Joe Williams So exactly. 07:52.41 Alan Ah, traditional culture of the Kowaasu and taught you and and you know took you by the hand and showed you the resources that were available and and you began to study it and become a ah student of the Kuwaasu culture. How's that. 07:59.29 Joe Williams Exactly? Yeah, absolutely if it wasn't for Janice I wouldn't have begun to learn the language itself through Julie Turner and actually pick up the media. That's that's necessary for learning the cho through language which is quite complicated actually all right to have to say as comp as complicated as the cherokee alphabet. Um, you know as far as the but the linguistics the linguistics. 08:25.66 Alan Absolutely okay. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, no I I would never I would never even attempt it. Um, Maurice Zigman who's an anthropologist and reallyy the premier anthropologist to study the Kawaisu and publish. 08:36.90 Joe Williams Behind it I. 08:49.89 Alan On that culture. Um, did you know did publish a dictionary post posthumously um on the kawayasu language but I would never ever attempt to try to learn to speak or study that language. Um, others have and None individual I'm aware of. Ah, is fluent in Kawaau but he's a remarkable individual. Um, not an indian but did you met? Yeah yeah, so yes, yes. 09:09.94 Joe Williams Um. Um, I think you is that a fact I didn't know that I don't believe I've met him. No. 09:27.99 Alan He's the Renaissance man of the ah te atcheise and has been ah, a writer and a photographer since his youth. 09:36.84 Joe Williams Okay, or we talk about the writer for the paper up there because he was he was actually now I think I know who you're talking about ah the publisher for for the to hatch be news I think. 09:47.25 Alan Yeah, yeah, he that's correct and he's always been a you know? ah ah person who'd who performs that particular role. Um, he was one of the yeah and and John was ah. 09:54.77 Joe Williams Okay, good. Yeah I think his name's John I think. 10:06.10 Alan The co-authors of the Kawai Suhan Book of course and he ah was. 10:10.50 Joe Williams So that's really pretty much how we met you and I is through is through this is through this effort and ah I I just happen to you know already have a little bit of ah. 10:14.76 Alan Yes, yes, yes. 10:29.39 Joe Williams Knowledge um in in where this particular Canyon sat ah by for a professor ah and he went on ahead and gave me um. 10:39.16 Alan Right. 10:46.48 Joe Williams Ah, an official letter that allowed me to be able to see the the actual importance of this site and and what happened is ah you know oh this is a sir I'm trying to it with I'm trying to hear Roger Robinson 10:51.65 Alan Great and and and and and who and who is then. 11:01.13 Alan Was that Roger Robinson from the Antelope Valley college 11:06.36 Joe Williams That's who it was Roger Robinson ranal valley college exactly thank you thank you so ah 11:08.20 Alan Yeah, okay, yeah, no, and he was. He's he's ex sort. Of course he's an archeologist anthropologist professor at at Antelope Valley College and he's been. You know, enmeshed in studies of that Antelope Valley 11:25.00 Joe Williams Yeah for for like over 50 years for 50 I think he said he said in the letter he started his studies with this canon in 1968 11:26.87 Alan Interface area for Decade. Yeah, many many decades. So so. 11:37.82 Alan Oh my word. So in any event so you had the letter. You had a little bit of knowledge and getting more you were working on setting up the corporation and I guess I guess the next. 11:51.40 Joe Williams Right. 11:56.45 Alan And and you were buying the land to ah you were bit you were you were busy. Go ahead. 11:57.37 Joe Williams Yeah, well actually we yeah well now we're at a above. Thank you and it is actually it's a busy. It's a busy subject in my opinion you know when when it comes down to the ethics. 12:13.71 Alan Yes. 12:14.59 Joe Williams Of of what we're trying to accomplish because we we don't want to jeopardize the site by publishing it and letting people know so that it becomes some kind of Disneyland attraction. That's that's not what we're looking for. We're not wanting to. 12:19.29 Alan Yes, right? Yeah, no, it's not that's not what you want. 12:30.65 Joe Williams No, we don't want to you know, expose the side that when when it doesn't need to be but yet it's such a delicate situation with this particular large corporation that they could choose to destroy it and so that's all we wanted to do is we wanted to step in to make sure that they knew that another corporation. Who has the knowledge and is willing to to commit to the stewardship to this Canyon for that Site. You know that that this this large corporation could contrast us with that with that job and that task and so. 13:02.69 Alan So so you had you had mentioned some interesting initiatives. How did you end up operationally defining or executing against your plan of stewardship for a rock guard site. 13:20.54 Joe Williams I I'd have to say it would be through the structure I don't mean to but a ah fraternity and in front of this. But if ah, yeah, yeah, it's ah it's a It's a so. 13:21.85 Alan Tell me help me. 13:31.27 Alan No, you mean you mean a build. You need a building right. 13:39.67 Joe Williams It's how should I say this? ah on ah on a masonic level the Masonic fraternity really operates a lot on structure and and so I learned that. 13:49.41 Alan Right? So what did you? So what did So what did what did you? What did you do physically. 13:56.39 Joe Williams You know that this structure is. 13:59.43 Alan Structure Did you build something with something constructed. 14:00.60 Joe Williams Ah, well actually I I did. The only thing I did no physically is make a deck which is called a deck up North I worked cdf. 14:13.12 Alan Yeah, yeah, okay yep, yeah. 14:17.88 Joe Williams Wildfires and up been humble and learn. You know how to fight fires at a young age. So decks is what we called them and all it is is a cut deck and in the mountain where it's level and not and not at an angle So that deck I've I've carved out upon the land. 14:28.49 Alan Okay. 14:35.64 Alan K. 14:37.13 Joe Williams We have up there. It's all corporate nonprofit and our intent is just simply to build ah to um u-s shaped walls cinder block walls to like 2 little cabins but there are only 3 walls to them. 14:49.62 Alan Um, yeah, okay. 14:55.50 Joe Williams And that way there's an open. It's an open roof open ceiling and we could go up there and arrange meetings and whatnot there on that up there on that land and so what we'd like to do really is bring back a ah cultural meeting that we used to have here in Ana Valley 14:58.67 Alan Yeah, yeah. 15:15.30 Joe Williams That hasn't that hasn't happened and in in quite a while now and ah this cultural gathering involved ah a drumming and and a lot of the local natives in this area and so what we wanted to do is you know. 15:25.90 Alan Yeah. 15:33.37 Joe Williams Have a new space new spot for us to be able to meet and have our drummings again and start being able to do our songs so you know I've joined in with with these gatherings and they're quite important, especially when it comes to powows like ah the your mushroom and malibu with their powow and whatnot. 15:36.58 Alan Got you. 15:52.61 Joe Williams Ah, powows are very ever so important because of this pandemic unfortunately is sortwars really put a lot of things off and has's taken a lot of people over. 15:59.52 Alan Yeah, So what? you're what you're saying is this this place this rock art site that you're protecting will also become some sort of a gathering site for native people. To perform certain religious rites am I correct. 16:21.79 Joe Williams Yeah, exactly exactly you know? ah again I don't want to you know name any names of organizations and whatnot and without their permission but but but you know this particular gathering in fact, are one of our directors you know on board here with the corporation Sam he's. 16:27.87 Alan Yeah, no, no, no ah, an unnecessary. 16:41.55 Joe Williams He was he was with with that group as well. That's how I know cm or Cfo is in that drumming. So you know he's a part of it as well as of with us trying to re trying to bring back the group that we used to be. 16:43.98 Alan Yeah. 16:52.40 Alan Yeah. 16:59.65 Joe Williams Drumming together with the drum and the ladies in the background with the children singing and and with the whole room singing to the same song drumming on the same drum like it was one heartbeat and the heartbeat of the of the world. 17:10.64 Alan Fantastic! Fantastic! Oh I bet it is that it's absolutely incredible. So I'm getting a flavor for what we're doing what you're doing and what we're trying to accomplish. 17:14.16 Joe Williams And it really is quite quite quite an extraordinary feeling to be able to be part of such a pattern. 17:29.20 Alan And I think in the final ah you know segment. Maybe we should focus in on a little bit about the rock guard site itself and its its characteristics see in the Flip-flop gang. 17:39.83 Joe Williams Yeah, excellent. Thank you. 17:43.66 archpodnet Okay.