00:00.16 Alan They' in archeology of podcast land this is your host Dr Alan Garfinkel Gold actually Dr Alan Garfinkel you won't know about the gold and I'm ah I'm your host and we have Steven Brian as our guest scholar today and he's an enthusiastic rock art aficionado who's just returned from a California Rock Art Foundation visit to the hinterland in the sierra day San Francisco to see the great mural rock art some of the largest. Prehistoric paintings in the world Stephen are you with us. Can you hear me Stephen. Okay, oh good, good. So how the heck did you get involved with the study of rock art. 00:42.10 Stephen Bryne Yes, Sir I'm here. Yes, yes yes. 00:57.12 Alan And an interest in rock art I presume that this is something That's ah been burbling up with you for quite some time. 01:07.53 Stephen Bryne Ah, yeah, thank you? Um I first became interested in rock art in the in the San Francisco bay area with some of the petroglyph sites up up in that area mostly they're known as the pcn boulders. Which are yeah petoglyphs you know carved into mostly like chloride shift boulders in in the bay in the bay area and then. 01:35.91 Alan And those are the ones that sort of have a have an odd look to them. They're they're like cupules but not exactly because they have some sort of circle but that in the center they have this kind of convexity am I correct. 01:51.52 Stephen Bryne Ah, yeah, they're They're mostly um, they're made by like subtraction in the rock and so usually it's like a round ring that that protrudes from the rock. Sometimes there's ah you know like a kind of a nipple in the middle. But you're. 02:05.38 Alan Yeah, yeah, very. 02:10.97 Stephen Bryne Yeah, they're found around the Bay area particularly around on the Tiberon Peninsula. Um, yeah, um. 02:13.53 Alan Ah, and so did you did you visit? those did you read about them. Did you connect with some other researchers who knew something about the. 02:25.51 Stephen Bryne I did yeah I there's a thesis about ah the petrolyphs ah in the court of madeira area and I visited some of the sites there and I was kind of tangentially. Involved with the Bay Area rock art association but was never really a member but I did go on some trips with some members and that's kind of what got me interested in rock art and then you know ah a little more than well in 2009 I moved to Southern California and 02:58.22 Alan Um, oh. 03:03.18 Stephen Bryne Um, was working in Carpenteria and got interested in some of the chew mash rock art through through friends that were interested in it and so and then subsequently got you know involved with Kraf and went on I've been on some of your trips. Dr Gold 03:18.95 Alan How many um how many trips did you go on so far. 03:23.15 Stephen Bryne Ah, to um well I went to toma con I went to little lake um, and then I've also been a member of ah an association in the la ventura area called Land Ven I don't know if you've heard of that. 03:37.20 Alan Okay, never heard of it That's but that's nice. Ah is that a rock art group. Okay. 03:41.99 Stephen Bryne Um, yeah, yeah, well, it's not specifically rock art but Al Knight is a you know a member and he's you know he's he's he took the group on a lot of well a number of trips to rock art sites in the. 03:46.72 Alan Um, laha. 03:58.32 Stephen Bryne Santa Monica Mountains and and some in the Anallo Valley and yeah's so that was also kind of an introduction and into the rock art of you know the Southern California 04:07.32 Alan Yeah, well all night is a legend because of his passion for rock art. Needless to say quite a remarkable scholar and very ah, very ambitious and enthusiastic. Please Stephen. 04:21.32 Stephen Bryne It oh I was just going to say there's also kind of a nexus with Campbell Grant because he was a resident of carpenteria and you know he wrote the the rock paintings of of the chew mash. 04:36.48 Alan Lean. 04:40.77 Stephen Bryne And and also the rock art of Baja California so there's kind of and you know, ah an underlying theme maybe but since he was a resident of carpenteria. There's a museum in Carpenteria that has some of his original artwork and. 04:41.90 Alan Um, right. 04:55.13 Alan Um, well well. 04:59.86 Stephen Bryne You know his his book that he illustrated is is you know a kind of a landmark book now. Although it's you know somewhat dated but but his artwork is in his interpretation of the rock art I think is really you know noteworthy. 05:03.26 Alan Um, sure. 05:13.50 Alan But that's Fantastic. So it sounds like ah because of your preexisting associations and partly because of the geography you had an opportunity to see some rather remarkable sites which um, which of these sites were you most impressed with. And what particular aspects of the sites really were were so that you became riveted to and maybe wanted to know more about. 05:45.58 Stephen Bryne Um, well, that's a good question I mean there a lot of the chew mesh rock art is pretty inaccessible and so you really have to make an effort to get to. You know most of the sites some of the sites like painted cave near. San marcos passed or you know you can drive to Although although they're you know iron bars like across the mouth of the cave but most of the sites are kind of in the hinterlands of ah the. The mountains essentially and so you you really got to make an effort to to get to a lot of the sites. Um, you know one of the sites that's not fairly accessible is arrowhead springs and you know Bill Bill Heider recently wrote a kind of a treatise on that site which is. 06:30.13 Alan Are. 06:40.40 Alan Yeah, yeah. 06:41.47 Stephen Bryne In the front what they call the front country of Santa Barbara meaning it's on kind of the front front side of the range. But um, that site is you know it's fairly small, but it's very impressive. It's a very impressive site because it's it's on a big rock face right? where a spring emanates from. You know the mountains at the very side of the spring and so it's it's obviously ah you know like a sacred site I don't think anybody would argue about that. Um. 07:09.68 Alan And and thanks to bill thanks to Bill's research and his intensive study of course Kraft put out a monograph about thatricular site and and that's a remarkable book. 07:21.98 Stephen Bryne Yes. 07:28.84 Alan That he did because it I think it tries to weave a story and sort of deal with both of the um I think part of the cognitive Neuroscience Landscape archeology. Um, Also the sacred narratives associated with it. But as as well sort of talking about the animistic and shamanistic elements of the entire series of Panels. So It was a rather tour de force. Don't you think. 08:03.12 Stephen Bryne I Do I think he did a really good job at it tying everything together. You know the placement of the site and the that you know the mythology kind of that might might be associated with it and yeah. Yeah, it's just kind of a remarkable site. It's got some aquatic you know features and to me one of the things that is kind of appeals to me about rock art and in particularly that you match rock art but it's it's not just the. The Motifs or the art itself. But it's it's the location and so I'm ah I'm always when I go to a site I'm looking not just at the rock art. But I'm looking around to see you know where is this site placed and why I always ask the question why here. But I mean there's obviously not. Always an an answer but it's you know I think the places themselves have a you know a significance even though you know we may not be able to to identify it at the at the time. 09:06.85 Alan You know I I agree totally?? Um I Guess ah a burgeoning aspect ah sort of a subdiscipline of archeology is this new study of what they call landscape archeology and part of that. Is sort of interfingered with the study of rock art now and trying to understand as you were saying why a particular place was selected and how that place is incorporated into sort of the dynamic mysterious and powerful nature. Of that particular artistic representation and again that's kind of the one of the keystones of trying to understand some of these sites is as you say dealing with the the natural land forms and the way in which that. Ah, was used to sort of ensconce the rock art am I correct. 10:12.83 Stephen Bryne Yeah I believe so and sometimes the the place itself is just so remarkable that you know it you can understand why the native people would maybe put a mark on it. And there's an example of that in this Annie Nes mountains where there's ah, a rock art quite a famous rock art site and I don't know if I should to you know, talk about the name or the location too much because you know the locations are protected but it's it's on a huge sandstone. 10:42.80 Alan Um, right. 10:50.24 Stephen Bryne Outcropping that looks like a giant molar you know and and it's it's it's in Campbell Grants Campbell Grant's book but you know and there is and there is a a tinaha or a natural pool in the top of the rock in. You know the rock. The rock itself is probably I don't know. 10:51.38 Alan Um, Aha Ah, ah. 11:01.52 Alan For her. 11:07.74 Alan Wow. 11:09.73 Stephen Bryne Fifty Seventy five feet high and you know and so it's it's a monolith of its own you know on its own and in very remarkable on its own without you know without being without having the artwork on it or around it. But. You know so some places are are just so distinctive that you know you can you can maybe understand why why that plays. 11:33.11 Alan Well I think that the native people from my my reading of certainly ethnography or talking to some of them who have something to say about them and that is and that is the. Places that were selected I think they believe in some instances certainly were selected or or so that they were they was that they spoke to them and they spoke to them about their power and their their energy and their particular magnificence. And that these particular unusual rock outcrops. Sometimes you know become the sites for either petroglyphs either rock Drawings or rock paintings and. Sometimes it's rather as you said it's rather transparent and easy to easy to see why a particular place might have attracted native people and been ah a canvas for their efforts. How's that. 12:46.30 Stephen Bryne Exactly I I agree. 12:47.11 Alan So so of the of the sites that you saw or of the particular places you've been and will hold off talking about your recent experiences in baha. Um. From Southern California Northern California which places I guess um were the most memorable those you those you can't stop thinking about. 13:14.89 Stephen Bryne Um, yeah I you know that's why I mentioned arrowhead springs because it it's it's just kind of a remarkable site have you been there? Allen yeah well, it's. 13:25.97 Alan I Have not no. 13:33.57 Alan Um, okay oh wow. 13:34.77 Stephen Bryne It's got an incredible viewscape because it's looking out over the channel channel islands from you know, probably yeah I don't know the the elevation off the top of my head but I'd say it's you know around two thousand feet or eighteen hundred feet probably you know an elevation and you're looking out through the forest at the. 13:45.36 Alan Um, ah. 13:53.78 Stephen Bryne At the channel you know the channel islands and in the Santa Barbara channel yeah and then being at the spring that emanates from the earth you know with this kind of amazing rock vertical rock there. It's just you know it's kind of an iconic site I think but. 13:54.25 Alan That's amazing. Yeah. 14:08.37 Alan Um, yeah. 14:12.86 Stephen Bryne There are many that I mean all of them kind of are unique in their own way I you know I'd hesitate to try and great grade these sites I've probably been to a hundred chew mesh rock art sites around you know around that. 14:23.30 Alan Oh I had no idea that you are you? That's that that's quite an inventatory to have visited that many sites amongst the two mesh isn't it. That's ah because that because a lot of those are very difficult to get to. 14:31.85 Stephen Bryne But yeah, yeah, so I mean there's There's a long list. But. 14:42.78 Stephen Bryne Yeah, I'd say most of them are very difficult to get to only a handful are really you know, easily accessible and and are you know, visited visited more so than others. But um I mean some other sites that kind of spring to mind tint Tinta cave. 14:44.60 Alan Um, yes, ah right. 15:02.16 Stephen Bryne Is quite intriguing to me I don't know if you've heard of this cave Allen but it's it's in the it is and it's it's kind of in the Kuyama area. But it's a very high elevation site. It's. 15:03.81 Alan Is that a to my site. Okay. Um. 15:21.22 Stephen Bryne I would say it's probably at least ah a couple of thousand feet high I don't know I don't know the elevation off the top of my head but you know the thinking back in the day was that a lot of these sites or the rock art sites were associated with with springs or were near or near or near water that was common kind of. 15:38.29 Alan Trip. 15:40.88 Stephen Bryne Thinking this one is it's not near any any water source. It's it's It's a long way from any water source and it's just kind of isolated on this side of you know near the top of ah a ridge. But again with a commanding view of the. The area but you know it kind of breaks the mold. Um, that people assume that that sites and and a lot of them are close to Water. There's no doubt about that or no question about that. But but some are not not anywhere near water in that and that's. 16:17.48 Alan And I guess it makes it more more mysterious. Ah. 16:18.61 Stephen Bryne Ah, case with the Tinto rock art site and again it it does and and that site is also very difficult to get to so you you know you have to claim up a couple of thousand feet and there's there's no trail so you're going off trail and. You know it's very steep and in rocky so it just getting there in and of itself is you know, kind of a labor. It is yeah sure. 16:41.24 Alan It's the it's part of the adventure right? Well I think that's all we have for the first segment and in the second segment we'll we're gonna go deeper into perhaps the the motivation and the indication of what what prompted. Stephen Brian to go see the great mural rock art see on the flipop gang.