00:00.00 Alan Welcome back to ah part 3 segment 3 of your rock art podcast episode 68 I've got the honor and blessing of having Dr Turrtambuka habadi from the guananawata university with us from the state of Mexico. Talking about our upcoming book and the journey that we've taken to understand Utah aztec and iconicity probably in this segment we're going to talk about several things. But I think we're going to bear down on ketzel cootal and also maybe talk about coad leakway and. Maybe even touch upon a little bit of the historic iconography and symbolism that represents the national culture of Mexico. How's that that that would be I think it's be enough to talk about in sixteen eighteen minutes don't you think. 00:51.90 Tirtha Yeah, yes, is of course I mean we are yeah but get so quo. 00:57.29 Alan Go ahead turn the turn through. So What is it about what is it? it? What is it? Yeah what about Ketzel Goal What is a kittzel. 01:11.11 Tirtha And the the the plume the plume serpent. Yeah, it's a feather feathers. Ah yeah. 01:12.87 Alan the bird yes ketzel the Ket Ketzel is the green feather I've seen the ketzel bird and it has an enormous plume on its ah on its on its feathers and that's where they get the quetzel Kootal which is. 01:27.36 Tirtha Okay. 01:31.92 Alan The Ketsel bird and cooddle of course is the rattlesnake. So that's what you get the plume serpent from. 01:34.26 Tirtha Yeah, yes, ah, yes, the quotal that that word now Nawal nawattle combines these the suffix forms of words with ah. With a double consonant like tl qottle but you know what our research has also shown something which um, is it tends to come out of ah. 02:09.20 Alan Um, yes. 02:09.53 Tirtha Linguistics once again that the that word quoal or quoa is is the it's the proto ah Utah as second root word for snake and almost all the. U two s tech languages have ah the word coako a or c o a however you wish to write it as ah, the root a base word for the snake. And at times it could refer it refers mostly to the to the rattlesnake. But also to the golfer st and at times ah the variations of you know those species all found in the desert west and north. 02:53.34 Alan Yes, yes. 03:06.95 Tirtha Mesoamerica and Mesoamerica and if you look at the the etymological the origins of the word and if you look at I mean this the seminal work in this context was done by greenberg rule and very interesting. Amerindian etymological dictionary. So amerindian is a phase of the ah native american languages ah which predates the archaic probably from very far back. Ah. And the seventh millennium before the present if ah, it's and the amerindian phase where the language distinctions of the utahstean groups and other related language groups in North america may not have differentiated so well because those populations may not have gotten to be so well-defined. It's like like the proto indo-european language. Um, ah phenomenon that. May have been responsible for the development of the european middle east middle eastern iranian indian language family. So we you can compare the amerindian language family phenomenon to the to the indo. European language family phenomenon in asia I mean it's huge weird. We are looking at a huge canvas and yeah and but they ah ah greenberg ah has identified. He has. Made a list of so many root words for snake not just in the north of america but in the andean and the southern expressions and in central america the chippan and the tannoan group of languages which seem to have. May have been the most archaic forms of in us tech and everywhere and everywhere you feel that the root word is can can ah kan in modern your english spelling. The. 05:33.24 Alan So what does that mean Tertha yeah coco on yeah from ah from the from the the maya. Yeah I didn't realize that of course. Yeah, yes. 05:35.11 Tirtha The mayan word cokul can ah yeah coco can in mayan yes, yeah I mean this k the k a the K O A Cyllabic cluster represents snake from an antiquity that we cannot even imagine to have existed before and and this therefore the consciousness of the snake must have existed with the amerindians the first native americans the paleoindians just ma. As much as it did for the later u two s seconds and of course the very recent astes and the newmik and so so so so we are looking at a universal symbolism of a kind. Of which we do not have a parallel in the entire world. Yes, a so so get cell quato so you know? Yeah yeah. 06:35.77 Alan Right? So if you look at the talking people as an as an example for udoa tech and and you're trying trying to understand. Yeah, so as you're trying to understand what these images are and what these representations are and how they depict the snake. It's done either in a triangle or a diamond and ah and we know that for a fact because the native people ethnographically historically told us that what they were what they were fashioning either on baskets or on paintings on the rocks were symbols of. Rattlesnakes and this was rattlesnake symbols and the the actual terminology is equivalent isomorphic with the same symbolism and etymological associations that we need to see that continuity in evolution. And character from its beginnings to its historic culmination. 07:40.63 Tirtha Yes, Alan if if you come to think of it you have studied ah studied hopi basketry southwest baskets basket patterns. Ah you know like no one else you know? ah you have this. 07:51.52 Alan Correct. 07:58.46 Tirtha This beautiful collection of references to the baskets and and the patterns and so if if we are looking at. 08:03.39 Alan Right? So we have so we have those that and if you if you look at them and you've asked some indigenous people as an example, tried the Southern payute the koayau as an example, a Udo as tech and you know expression and they'll tell you that. 08:13.26 Tirtha Yeah. Perhaps. 08:22.59 Alan That the triangles are a basket pattern called in their native language Togodikidi which is the pattern for the rattlesnake and then the other pattern of course is for the gopher snake and those were those words. 08:38.61 Tirtha Um, yes. 08:42.59 Alan Are embedded in a descriptor explaining the design elements in the Basketry. So. There's no no possibility of of misunderstanding that that's what they're representing same thing goes with. Of course the. Coming of age rights mainly for girls but also for boys that created these remarkable imagery in Southern California for Utah Aztec and northern utahteans of the toic realm and this was the imagery that was used. And the reason I bring that up is because those diamonds and Zigzags and triangles continue for thousands of years as representations as part of uto as tech and cosmology semiotics. Neurotheology all these same under one umbrella how would you? How would you characterize it tertha. 09:45.93 Tirtha Um, that's ah, that's hard linguistic evidence right there alllan that you're citing for us like the word togaitto. The the togoa this far I think that's the numic standard word for a snake a rather than snake and the Goa. And the coa is ah the the gela um cyllabic ah construction represents a switch from the ko a coa or the Ceo Coa which which which comes out again in. So quattle or in coco can in the mayan coco can ah in in this is this is hardly evidence. Yeah. 10:26.78 Alan So So what does the the. Yeah, So so what do the do the aztecs say about the origin of their serpent their their feathered serpent main deity where did that particular animal-human figure that was so Central. There's their cosmology come From. Where was it birthed who who was its parents, etc. 11:00.72 Tirtha Um, the quetso kotil is ah is as specifically as tech asten. You know the? Ah um, the the the codex the codeyus would seem to suggest. That the quetsel quot the word itself appears in the mythology and the narratives oral narratives of the ah slightly pre-classic aztecs and that's where so. We are looking at about thousand years like 6 to 700 a d and after in the common era and there with the the memory of quetzel Kotle. Um. 11:37.58 Alan So. 11:55.87 Tirtha Comes through from those narratives in there are various. There are various versions of the of the narrative of the origin of Quetzo quotle who is the son of ah the mother goddess I mean so the more. 12:12.60 Alan And the mother goddess was what was her name to an answer. Okay yet. Okay. 12:15.56 Tirtha Ah, another snake goddess. The mother goddess was to Nancy him to to Nancy him. So so there's a mother goddess and then there is a plumed serpent god and. 12:31.24 Alan E. 12:35.27 Tirtha Ah I mean this is we are we are treading into territory of linguistics ethnography and we are not experts but we are we are we primarily look at the iconic symbolism. But. But what? what we know what we gather from that research that literature is that ah the the this this plumed serpent which can fly up and then down this movement the idea of movement is central to the symbolism because ah Kitzel Quoal is like venus. It's the morning star and the evening star and so it goes down it dips into the Manita world. The other side of the world and then it comes out again in the evening. In all its resplendence its glory and a constant a symbol of constancy a symbol of of yeah permanence and eternity and then faith and whatever you call it and quetzel quattle in the narratives as well. Is ah spiritually it refers to um, ah a state of mind which is like beyond ah ah, all the. The troubles the disturbances, the anxieties of a mortal existence which is plagued by desire and consequences and you know there this symbol ofquetzel quattle. It. It unites with with all that ah philosophical ah ideas of the greeks and the buddhists and you know all over the world and Quetsil Quoal is is is also he's also a priest. he' also ah is also so. 14:33.93 Alan Yes. 14:43.89 Tirtha A sacerdotal figure I mean a priest of an Hastetan Priest because and this is the priest who is above all priests the priest of priests. 14:54.24 Alan Now Quetzel Kawaal being the the sun I understand of toansen and I understand that that if we look for even in historic times to this very day. There is a. 15:13.10 Tirtha Yeah. 15:14.23 Alan Ah, Hill which um I believe had a lunar pyramid on it and was perhaps the home of tanansen which was a female goddess of the moon. Um, and isn't that the next. 15:20.45 Tirtha Press. 15:28.92 Tirtha And a snake goddess. 15:32.11 Alan And the snake goddess and isn't that also the name that the maya still use to this very day to refer to our lady or virgin of Guadalupe that's what I understand am I correct or no yes tepeak. 15:46.38 Tirtha The Tip Payac Yeah, the tip payak That's that's the to the Hill It's the now what the Hill The yeah. 15:51.52 Alan Yes, I will yes and right and so so tonansend is is is in some ways a name that the that this figure this. 16:09.21 Tirtha See. 16:11.41 Alan Ah, representational figure that has become entwined with all things of Mexico um is is to this very day. A symbol of nationality identity signatures passion religion. 16:17.62 Tirtha Yes. 16:28.53 Tirtha Of the of them of the primordial mother and yes, the primordial. 16:29.78 Alan All this wrapped up together am I correct the primordial mother the the yes the primordial mother and the mother of Mexico and the mother of of ah of of a d. 16:40.81 Tirtha Yeah. 16:46.14 Tirtha Of the religion. 16:49.40 Alan Of the religion but also interestingly enough the mother of a deity correct yes because she's she's often shown pregnant and carrying the creator God which is rather interesting. 16:58.53 Tirtha Yes, and they. 17:06.72 Tirtha Ah, we we cannot ah I mean we yeah this this is an inconclusive project because in conclusive positive sense I mean ah you you can't stop exploring. 17:09.23 Alan And there is go ahead. Go ahead. 17:17.80 Alan Oh it is Of course. 17:25.23 Tirtha Significance of of this symbol and and you know yeah and Kitzel Kottle is the son of taan and and the father ah the son. The son is the father. The mother is earth and quezo quottle is venus and and this all weaves into the the catholic faith of. 17:25.56 Alan Ah, exactly. 17:41.99 Alan Right. 17:44.18 Tirtha Of this great civilization and it's like it's amazing. It's magical and no less magical forever. Yeah, guess just could be. 17:47.30 Alan And and we could we could continue continue this discussion for hours on end and sort of include all all of this other related material. But unfortunately we've we've come to the end of our 18 minutes would you like to sign out turtha and say something to our our ah our broadcast audience. Go ahead. 18:14.37 Tirtha I mean I could only say congratulations to to Chris Webster for this wonderful ah podcast the idea of the podcast on on rock art on the most elemental symbolism that we have in humanity. And human culture and I wish you all success and I wish you come together to yes. 18:37.26 Alan Thanks to that we'll see on the flip Flop gang. See you next week God Bless and thank you Tirtha for for blessing us with your intellect your reflections and your wonderful hyperbole God bless. 18:55.48 Tirtha A weapon welcome.