00:00.40 archpodnet You're on. 00:01.48 alan Welcome back gang this is Dr Alan Garfinkel with your rockard podcast tertam muahabadi from Mexico talking about the archaeology of emotion and the nature of indigenous religions. So terrtha. How does this translate into the religious canopy How do we deconstruct or get something regarding regarding the cosmology and the structure of the religious metaphors from our rock art. 00:40.87 Tirtha Yes, so the the question so that we just raised in our discussions on the archaeology of emotions and I do not think really that the that other scholars have ah. 00:58.39 Tirtha Have dealt exclusively with ah with the theme of archeology of emotions in the way we have done in our book on the Utah second religions the like the like the iconicity of emotions the iconicity of ah of the religions. Of the u two s second peoples of the entire great basin and and the America and the greatest american southwest and and Meo America and the the great religions which evolved over time. Ah, the religion of the of the snake. As we have called it in in the book and I think there are more unanswered questions here rather than questions to which we know definite div to which we have definite answers. But I would I would say I would suggest again. Yes. 01:49.16 alan But I think one of the I think one of the themes I think one of the themes an overarching theme and something that's critically important I think is the nature of an indexical animal and the animal that communicates. 01:57.24 Tirtha Yes, right. 02:08.35 alan Ah, emotions I mean if you're looking at a yes yes. 02:09.79 Tirtha Yes, the Animal Master narrative that you you have you have been writing about the animal Master team for a long time andlan Well, how do you explain? The. Narrative I Mean How how do you think is a narrative being constructed out there. 02:28.92 alan So the the this animal Master narrative is something that's that's available and characteristic of cultures throughout the world and there's something within the cognitive software of the human mind. 02:35.44 Tirtha Um, yes. 02:48.54 alan That appears to consistently identify a super mundane being that is going to be responsible for the transmogrification of animals. There is some sort of an emotional tether for killing beasts and. Some need to ah allay or somehow sympathize or deal with the emotional turmoil one is under when one is killing animals that that is is absolutely necessary to survive and this this may have been a seed. 03:08.88 Tirtha Um, to invent. Yes. 03:26.30 alan For some of this cosmological nexus am I at all correct. Ah. 03:30.11 Tirtha And this this is this is ah precisely what the religions are dealing with you know a provider um like an it yes and it's an intuition of someone of. 03:39.20 alan A spiritual provider. 03:46.36 Tirtha Of a provider who transcends human abilities ah supernatural the notion of a supernatural provider The notion of an omnipotent God a provider God a sustainer a giver. The the confidence that the the presence of such a provider entity evokes in this in the participant and of that the member of that collective. The. The faith that it generates and and a kind of a state of feelings or emotions which which are conducive to to better performance to better. 04:40.73 alan To mental health to try to deal to try to deal with the peculiarities of life. The the uncertainties and the tremendous challenges that 1 faces just to conduct their affairs to this day and. 04:43.90 Tirtha Mental. Yes, yeah, yes. Um, where. 05:00.50 alan In the past there's a tremendous connection I think between looking at those visual prayers emblazoned on the rocks and thinking about the same issues that we face today just has to do with longevity sustainability life death. They're all there aren't they. 05:21.87 Tirtha Um, yes, this is ah religion. Um, Ah, we don't know if we have transitioned Beyond um religions. But. Ah, the doctrinal elements of religions but religion may be a system integrated in our very cognitive nature itself and does not lie beyond it in some ethereal. 05:57.64 Tirtha Speculative space of our discourse. So ah, the absolutely. 06:09.69 alan There's something within our physiology. Our neural structure that that consistently yearns for some sort of a super mundane being to reassure us to give us confidence to give us the ability to face. Adversity and also the the disconnects that we have in terms of attempting to live attempting to procreate and and have a family and to abide on the planet. 06:32.18 Tirtha Here are. 06:38.27 Tirtha Cold Yes disease natural disasters. All those great fears the primal fears that nature evokes in us the yes. 06:54.90 alan To this very day. Yeah to this very day. 06:58.70 Tirtha This this this the I mean the just the natural engineering ah of it All is is amazing. It's his. It's it's it's just overwhelmed. Yeah. 07:11.36 alan You know go ahead you know I've I've thought about this a little bit and I don't know if this comes out of the comes out of the blue but after 9 eleven and I think I've mentioned this to you before one of the things that occurred was. 07:15.57 Tirtha Yes. 07:30.33 alan This um, this tremendous angst that people had and ah the the need to identify symbolically as a nation and so they ran out of flags and flags were one means of symbolically. Identifying a signature or hallmark of the unity and identity of the United States now isn't that somewhat analogous. 07:59.39 Tirtha Um, of course of course I mean this is exactly how religions were preparing us for the last two Millennia for the last several centuries. And but what's interesting is ah this the the simple, the simple elemental primeval primordial nature of rock art enables us to appreciate how this works. 08:14.89 alan Um. 08:34.38 Tirtha And like ah the humans are humans are also Competitive. Combative humans are willing to destroy each other um you know and. How can we sustain ourselves in a nature which is so and unforgiving and what are the resources. Yes, and and this is not just between. This is not just interspecies. 08:57.00 alan Bright right? An unforgiving environment. Absolutely. Now. 09:08.21 Tirtha But this is intra-speches and and ah when we look at the more detailed history of the classic aztics. For example, if we take it as a case study we could take any any. Ah. 09:23.17 alan Ah. 09:27.91 Tirtha Period of history from any region of the world for that matter. But but in the aztecs ah in the aztic belief of your supernatural their preparations for war they're there. 09:46.55 Tirtha Ah, this this vision that death and life are intertwined in a continuum and that these dets are somehow enabling us empowering us to contemplate on this paradox and it's ah it's ah. 09:55.44 alan Right. 10:05.99 Tirtha This the the the the natural emotional propensity or tendency is has to be acknowledged at the root of any kind of theorizing. About human societies and and and beliefs I guess don't you think Ellen. 10:33.61 alan And and it looks like ah in some ways. This particular perspective has not been has not been ah, really ah, emphasized or. It has not been part and parcel of our discussion of rock art has it Not really. 10:55.85 Tirtha Ah, no, there is. There's not really, there's still so much to to explore in the Rock Arts If you the rock Arts has to be rock art has to be studied in an interdisciplinary Way. It's not just ah, a feel for archaeologists who are ref fighting on the physical existence of rock art clusters and exploring the relations of rock ah to time layers. But. 11:14.49 alan No. 11:31.28 Tirtha Also the varied narratives of rockop like like the animal master. Ah, ah, narrative. For example, how far can we probe into the possibility of of this engaging and looking at. 11:40.27 alan Ah. 11:50.43 Tirtha Narratives from the visual clues in rock art The animals. Yes, the animals. Yes I mean and how how do we? How do we read the images. How do you interpret those images. 11:55.95 alan And how does no and how does how does that translate into the images. 12:06.48 alan Right? right. 12:09.40 Tirtha The the ah the animals. Ah the availability of horses in America the the the dates of the extension of ah arteodactils the the availability of sheep. 12:13.11 alan Her. 12:28.68 Tirtha The the scarcity transitions in climate climate changes and the changes in the Biome ah higher. Yes. 12:34.85 alan Right. 12:42.58 alan You know you know what's interesting. You know it's interesting tertha that I thought of we're talking about emotions and rock art when I've looked at the ah very robust record of the yahura figure for the Kawaisu Southern pautes 12:59.68 alan It's always about someone a native person troubled emotionally who somehow seat searches out the animal master and visits that animal master and comes away with a song or a. 13:13.23 Tirtha Um, yeah. 13:18.97 alan Some sort of a yeah ah medicine that transforms their life and allows them to continue in the face of adversity isn't that interesting. 13:28.63 Tirtha That that is how humans have lived for hundreds and thousands millions of years. Well we are. We cannot even scratch the surface of that the adept. 13:35.76 alan Of years. Yeah. 13:44.79 alan So we're we're creatures of the sacred narrative the oral tradition where ah where we're creatures also who want to perceive and see and taste and feel the supermundane The supernatural. 13:47.49 Tirtha Yes. 14:00.88 alan Transcendence and connection to a higher power and this is how it's been done. Ah, even though we can compare the contemporary way we do this compared to hundreds and thousands of years ago. There are similarities in that particular vein. 14:04.85 Tirtha Um, yes. 14:17.19 Tirtha These these similarities Alan as as you mentioned them and this would be a nice way of looking at the continuity especially from a visual perspective. The rock arts have taught us to appreciate. 14:18.85 alan Are there? not. 14:37.10 Tirtha Or rather it is and unknowingly unknowingly perhaps inspired humans to create the great arts of the byzantine churches. The those those compelling Eyes. Of the virgin mother. Ah the same um naturalistic technique This primordial technique of negotiating with death and ah. 14:59.32 alan Yes, ah yes. 15:14.85 alan Life. 15:16.83 Tirtha Ah, sustainer a possible hypothetical sustainer is evident in the fear of in the on the eyes of the masks of all the great Traditions Cultural traditions and I think this that if we jump. 15:30.51 alan Yes, ah. 15:34.35 Tirtha If We if we if we try to draw a line linking these ah discreetly available expressions on the human Timeline. Um. The Quark Qtu mask. Ah the the great power of those animal human masks those eyes of the quark Ketu the fishermen masks The you know the bird i. 16:09.25 alan Yes, yeah, it has an emotional tenor. It's something that takes us ah through fear through connection through transformation through the ah ethereal plane and I think with that we'll close. 16:10.52 Tirtha So everything? yes. 16:26.12 alan And perhaps we'll connect again in a couple of weeks tertha and continue this discussion. Thank you? Ah all you peep all you listeners out there in archeology podcast land see you soon see in the flip flo. 16:40.74 Tirtha Thank you Adam and. 16:44.48 alan Pleasure.