00:00.28 archpodnet You're alive. 00:01.69 alan Welcome back all you folks out there in archeology podcast land this is Dr Alan Garfinkel with the segment 2 for your rock art podcast tertha we were just discussing the emotions. The archeology of emotions and how that may relate to the theme of and the substance of the particular elements of the religious and cosmological elements of an indigenous culture. How would that work. 00:39.43 Tirtha Absolutely,, That's where our discussions would lead us to towards Ah the the emotions are of essence because in archaeology neither in archaeology nor in Anthropology. Um. Has the emotions been considered to be an important tool for the understanding of these rock art patterns and in fact, archaeologists as we just said have not you know, ventured out to explain what these figures mean. But yes, the emotions The the basic point here here is that the rock Arts Geometrical representationals and then we as we would be inclined to follow this argument and apply it to the anthropomorphic figures. That the rock art always essentially indispensably has an emotional emotive impact on the viewer. What this means is that and then the question that follows is what kind of emotional impact. The emotional impact is that of. Essentially one associated with wonder it's all inspiring when you look at those those images it's ah it's it's it's it's It's a a sublime feeling. Yes, It's mysterious. 02:08.30 alan It's mysterious. Um, it also has a transcendental element to it as as you and I have said in the past you you get this tether between the terrestrial and the. 02:16.30 Tirtha Um, yes, yeah. 02:25.13 alan Celestial. 02:25.33 Tirtha Absolutely the cosmology. The the the the largeness the you are connected to the to the entire universe to the ah to the to the stars you are. You feel that it creates an integral or integrated aesthetic sensory Experience. You know that the the landscape ah and the rocks and the images they grow in together. But. I would suggest and I would I mean I humbly suggest here that in every experience of rock art figures. There is somehow even if it is unrecognized a feeling. A grain of fear a grain of a primal fear experience in what called what Cognitive Science now calls the the flight or fight response. Yes. 03:32.48 alan Yeah, the fight and flight. So I Think what you're saying and I and I I do understand I think appreciate this as as we as we view these figures. There's a suddenness a surprise a a a a sort of. Guttural feeling of of sort of revelation or or trying to understand and and somehow conceptualize what we're seeing and sometimes it's it's monstrous and mysterious. Some times it's it's just overwhelming Am I. At all correct. 04:11.50 Tirtha These are absolutely the terms that have been used in the psychology of aesthetics and emotions and artistic emotions. You know that and and ah psychology is still trying to to grope with this question of um. 04:16.83 alan Okay. 04:28.49 Tirtha Ritual or artistic or religious emotions. There's no,, There's no clear cut definition but there but all these emotions that you just mentioned are associated with that state of responses those states of responses that set of responses like all and fear and mystery and Wonder. Now if we jump onto the yeah to analyze the the anthropomorphs the human stick figures on rock art surfaces. There is. There's a sense of immediate ah immediacy the the figures seem to jump out at us. 04:58.19 alan Ah. 05:05.88 Tirtha That they have that they seem to be floating. They have what you know maringer whom we both of us have ah have been fascinated with Maringa's position on the numinous experience of rock art figures. Yes. 05:17.20 alan Right? right? The numinous they have a floating experience. It seems as though they are embellished upon the rocks almost as an envelope or a curtain or a particular.. How would you put this. Some sort of a ethereal envelope in which they have been right? Go ahead, Go ahead. Please tertha. 05:39.33 Tirtha So appearing appearing it's ah it's a revealing and then yes, yes, that is the the new the numinous figures the Newman the it's it's like most of the rock art human figures. They don't. 05:48.99 alan Yes. 05:57.19 Tirtha Stand on their feet as such I mean visibly this they seem to have Avian feet at the the the example of Avian feet at the count of Avian feet features Butd birdlike feet features in in the cosa rock art in the in the. 05:58.87 alan Narrow. 06:15.32 alan And and they're they're floating. They're not stable. They're they're in some sort of a they're they're they're smack dab looking at you almost peering face forward and and and you know almost. Ah. 06:17.10 Tirtha Ah, rock out of the southwest now. 06:25.90 Tirtha You right. 06:32.69 alan Causing you to be riveted and directing your attention at them. How's that. 06:38.13 Tirtha Um, yes, absolutely true. That's that's the way they they behave and that's the. 06:42.49 alan And this is very common and I've seen it in the great mural rock art of bar I've seen it in coso and we of course see this ah throughout the world. Don't we. 06:53.54 Tirtha We see this throughout the world. We see a whole layer of Fibonacci circles and concentric circles. Ah all across the continents and ah the prehistory of migrations and. Another very far-fetched theory of mine which which it's it's ah, really like a ah baby theory for me. But I believe that um this the this the notion of the numinous ah anthropomorph. Which is fundamental to the birth of religions to the understanding of how religions evolved in human culture. Ah the the sense of death fear mystery a spiritual revelation. Associated with these images the the human stick figures this somehow explains how ah human cultures have developed such complex narratives of religions in in the more written literate phases of. Ah, the cultural evolution but speaking of these new numinous figures these figures with raised arms jumping at us or even blessing these figures do not evoke. 08:24.22 alan No, they don't. 08:24.31 Tirtha Sexual emotions. Um, hardly hardly I mean there are references to ah to ah, copulation to birthing but somehow these anthropomorphs appear to us to be childlike. 08:32.73 alan Sure. 08:43.42 Tirtha Characters and and I think um the the fibonacci the fibonacci there is a way of looking at the fibonacci just as there is a way of the fibonacci looking at us. 09:01.47 alan Ah. 09:01.52 Tirtha But but what I mean is the fibonacci creates an effect of ah you know dizziness. It creates an effect of ah transnce if you would call it a very mild and embedded. Response trans response but the fibonacci is a forerunner of the numinous anthropoorph because the fibonacci if you look at the fibonacci as a circular image which. Ah, which ah stems or comes out of the center towards like a cone if you consider it as a moving cone from a center Outwards expanding. 09:52.95 alan Um, and I. 09:56.70 Tirtha And extending outwards and in an spiral way you it it it it evokes motion emotion emotive ah responses or reflexes and and it's just as if it it. 09:58.80 alan Um, and home. 10:14.11 Tirtha It drops down ah towards us. It's ah. 10:18.62 alan Yeah, yeah I think back to that image that we have in our book that I've used often in a number of my publications and it has I think what you're talking about a fibonacci spiral. Um, and it depicts the Post-mortem animal. 10:26.29 Tirtha Um, yeah. 10:36.16 alan Ceremony where they're revering the skull of the animal and it shows how the spirit I believe the spirit of the animal would go down to the underworld and then in turn return to the hunter and be transmogrified. 10:48.26 Tirtha Um, yeah here. 10:54.96 alan That's how I've always seen it I don't know if that's how you see that image or not but it it is interesting. Yeah, and so. 10:58.00 Tirtha Of course that's how we have seen it here. Yeah and isn't that how we have discussed the not the Feebo nachi per se but you know about the the anthropomorph generally. 11:07.26 alan Right. 11:14.20 alan Now there's there's a sort of ah, a traditional way. They're showing the anthropomorphes and yet the animals are shown differently instead of a ah face forward Full frontal Static numinous figure Often. They're shown. In a side view and sometimes with great emotion and vitality and movement am I correct. 11:40.32 Tirtha I agree with I agree with you with that and animals and animals would comprise the other great chapter of the archeology of emotions. How are ah how are how do these animal. Animals different Animals. You know from deer to sheep to ah to but to bigger game animals or smaller game animals and all sorts of animals which were hunted animals of sustenance human sustenance. These animals are they always seem to be under a kind of ah ah, a power an external um extra. 12:33.22 alan Got that. 12:33.43 Tirtha Extra morale terror or power and that these animals are dying. They're giving up that they are so that they are victims I wouldn't call them victims but that they are objects of sacrifice and this ah this of ah the power. 12:44.73 alan Yes. 12:52.80 Tirtha That that belongs really to the hunter. Ah, ah, which is the power of debt this this this feeling of debt again. The feeling of that primal fear that that feeling of being our standing on on a frontier of life and. 12:59.60 alan And. 13:07.45 alan Ah. 13:11.73 Tirtha And nonexistence or death or whatever that that fear that power is transmitted to the the posture of the animal in a way which is which to me is unbelievable I mean the simplicity and and the the raw. 13:27.63 alan Ah. 13:31.49 Tirtha Power with which such such depictions appear in the oldest strata of human art. This is unbelievable and even those great horses. You know those great traditions of painting. 13:44.46 alan Yes. 13:49.55 Tirtha In the in the in the Western tradition or in the animals in in other cultural expressions I mean they they tend to lack that that unmediated simplicity of. 13:51.67 alan No. 14:08.30 Tirtha The rock art shamans and they're they're the manner in which the the created effects of the animal as being an object of sacrifice and and nourishment and vitality and and abundance. Um. 14:23.76 alan Yes, and I I think I think we're on onto something very central because you're talking about the cosmology the religious metaphor the heart and soul of what the native peoples believe and if you look closely at rock art. Again and again and you you did hit the nail on the head. The nexus of death and life is portrayed in a transparent authentic way that you see before your very eyes. How's that. 15:00.48 Tirtha Yes, then the this is this is the most reveting the the gaze which has endowed rock art and ah we will continue to be fascinated by its power throughout the ages. And another ah very very briefly I would I would just like to mention here that what? what What makes me wonder is that there are not much not much evidences of of practice. Rock art practice I mean I mean could you eliminate me on that front Alan we see examples of rock art. We are fascinated by rock art. But where did these shamans practice their art did they. Did they just ah make these images out of no prior training artistic training. 16:04.43 alan You know there's there's I know of nothing that I've read in my 50 years of study that mentions anything about how these shamans or ritual Adepts learned to do their rock art. I have nothing I've seen not a not a word has have I heard of any sort of practice or training or anything along those lines which is interesting Actually I mean ah, let's ah, let's let's call it a break here and and catch on the flip Flop gang. 16:24.39 Tirtha Um, I mean the hook that yes. 16:33.64 Tirtha Um, it's it's into yeah. 16:40.75 alan And we'll ah wind it up for segment 3 16:42.68 Tirtha Um.