00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome to heritage voices episode 63 I'm Jessica yu quinto and I'm your host and today we are talking about the digging to the other side podcast before we begin I'd like to honor and acknowledge that the lands I'm recording on today are part of the nooch or ute people's treaty lands the danta and the ancestral pueblo in Homeland. And today we have the crew of the digging to the other side podcast on the show. Would you guys all mind introducing yourselves. 00:28.50 Anna Um, yeah I guess I'll go first if we're going in alphabetical order here. Um, my name is Anna Coon I am currently the tribal archeologist of the spokane tribe of indians here in Eastern Washington I am a director at largege of the association for Washington Archeology Board of directors. Um, I'm also the founder and chair of the Washington Archaeology mentorship program I'm a host of this podcast and affiliate of the archaeo gaming collective. My handle is short round with an e at the end on Twitter and elsewhere. So that's me. 01:03.79 Bryan Baldeon Hello everyone my name is Brian Baldone I'm from Stockton California I am currently an undergrad at California State University statusnis loss majoring in anthropology with a double concentration in. Cultural anthropology as well as archaeology right now I am an intern at sound king county historical museum and I am also a board member for the cultural heritage board for the city of Stockton. 01:36.88 Daryl So yes, I'm Darrel um, my Twitter handles harusakyun. Um I'm actually not trained in archeology. Um, but actually through one of Sarah's previous projects archaeological fantasies I became very very interested in archeology. Um I have a general interest. And a lot of different things. Um, and so I eventually joined the archeo gaming arche ah gaming collective group on this chod server. Um, and I run the welcome to goblin town game with Anna as one of the players. 02:06.58 Tommy Ng Hi my name's tommy ing I'm a longtime c r emmer I've been doing this for about over 25 years I'm a partner in the carn company based in Calgary Alberta Canada um, our most I also co-host a na podcast cousin. Call Arco Cafe and I'm on various committees here in Canada especially with the canadian archaeological association and right now I'm I'm part of an initiative of Parks canada in terms of of ah providing commemoration for how gonna say this inclusivity commercial. Okay, just trying to figure out how to commemorate various ethnic groups who have been involved with the formation of Parks Canada all right so 02:50.40 archyfantasies You go and my name is Sarah Head I am also known as archi fantasies on the internet I do the archaeological fantasies podcast I am a longtime crmr. It's cultural cultural resource management. And I founded and then lost control of the archaeo gaming collective as all of the other gamers came in and took over my game. are you though are you um I don't I don't have an impressive pedigree like the rest of my co-hosts. So. 03:18.62 Anna I'm sorry I'm really sorry. 03:28.99 archyfantasies I am very proud of them all I'm done as that's all I got. 03:30.26 archpodnet Well hi everyone. My name is Jessica yeah sorry um, hi everyone. My name is Jessica Quinto and I'm the host of the heritage voices podcast on the archeology podcast network I'm also i'm. I'm a cultural anthropologist so I do ethnographic research in tribal consultation I am not an archeologist but I do work in Crm Heritage I'm the the founder of living heritage anthropology and one of the co-founders and the president and Ceo of the nonprofit. Living heritage research council all right? So everyone I'm very excited to hear more about what brought you all here like what got you interested in this field this type of work. This. 04:24.19 archyfantasies Um, and you ruined my I clicked on a link joke. 04:24.78 archpodnet Podcast topic. Um, sorry. 04:30.93 archyfantasies Um, Anna what brought you to archeology. 04:32.91 Anna Oh gosh. Okay, how do I summarize this very quickly I was living in Japan teaching english bumped into an anthropologist got interested in the ah the I knew of Northern Japan wanted to pursue that but was being told that anthropology is not a very popular. Field in Japan. So I went back home to pursue it accidentally excelled in my archeology class and so when I needed a workplacement. Um, they put me in archeology and I was just like I'm going to leave this after like two or three months Well three years later I was stuck. Ah. 05:06.84 Tommy Ng The. 05:09.10 Anna And I loved my coworkers and I loved what I was doing and I accidentally fell into the thing that made me the happiest I saw a place for me in this field and I wanted to stick with it. 05:16.86 archpodnet That's awesome. So. 05:20.70 Bryan Baldeon And okay, well I've have always been interested in past civilizations and history I have ethnic roots from Ecuador and also have indigenous roots mailing through my father's side which I'm very proud of my heritage and past. 05:22.30 archyfantasies Brian. 05:39.85 Bryan Baldeon And so I've always been interested in history and I was originally originally declared myself as a history major and through one of my mentors and looking at bedrock mortars in the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas here in central california um I realized hey this is somewhat amateur archeology and I fell in love with it and and that's how I got into this. 06:12.20 archyfantasies Daryl. 06:12.75 Daryl And well I it's kind of funny um, not all I'm thinking about it I also have like a general interest in just like a lot of different things I'm a generally nosy curious person. Um I remember when I was like 11 years old it was 11 something like that I found a. Book in the library. It's like fat dictionary book that said like the history of the world on it and I tried my very best send 11 year old to read that thing never finished but that has been my general attitude and um I guess behavior throughout my life is just to keep looking at things. Um I have spent a little bit of time in. Japan Korea and China um, and that sort of kind of eclectic approach. Um I think has led me down through a lot of different paths. But when eventually probablying to this specifically this podcast would be um Sarah's project argue fantasies that got me really really interested in. Like archeology itself. You know as a discipline um as a field and then coming into the the discord server right? I was sort of able to iron interact with actual archeologists. Um and irritate the heck out of them. Um, and enjoy every moment of it and now I'm here I been roped into this a project now which hopefully I bring a nice. 07:26.96 Tommy Ng You dude dar it's it's going to have an outside perspective. Yeah, ah yeah, um I started my my career started of a lie. My uncle said that I was a um part mongolian. 07:27.57 Daryl Perspective too. 07:30.24 archyfantasies Um, yeah, exactly. 07:34.27 Anna It's outside and inside what they're all really. 07:46.94 Tommy Ng So I grew up thinking like I I was riding a horse through the steps raping and pillaging and so I and yeah, exactly and that kind of stuck with me and so I grew up like everybody else and Joni Army and all that stuff and and when I left I went to university I like everybody else I got strong interest in history. 07:50.31 archyfantasies Wow. 08:06.19 Tommy Ng Took some archeology courses and I saw there was a there was a job posting for in crm they wanted somebody could dig so I figure. Ah I dug a lot in your army and I I got hired and I didn't realize that I had to slow down digging I actually look for stuff not just to break ground. And from there on I haven't left crm and I just I just continue know of archaeology and the great thing is I like working with nomadic cultures because I cause that general interest with the mongolians that I died I just felt naturally with working with the plains indians and so i. So I ended up working on I ended up working with the planes and and cultures and stuff like that and I and I enjoyed every moment of it so and like you Jessica I also do lot indigenous consultation. All that stuff too. so yeah, so yeah that's that's me not show. 08:53.27 archpodnet So how did you find out that you weren't Mongolian where did the. 08:58.99 Tommy Ng Oh cause my fun of Uncle Li I found my he lights up he lights a lot. So I realize he has 3 different names to so see? Yeah, ah. 09:04.41 archpodnet Got it. 09:08.16 archyfantasies And that's a story for another podcast. Um. 09:11.58 archpodnet So speaking of podcasts oh sorry Sarah no you go you go sorry i. 09:17.74 archyfantasies Ah, what oh mean you have you gonna you gotta make me like deep dive. Okay, so ah, way back in the day I had to what what's the last year of school. So my senior year of high school. 09:22.30 Tommy Ng Ah, no. 09:34.47 archyfantasies Had to write a report about what we wanted to be when we graduated high school and I despised this assignment so I went to this book of like jobs you could have and I opened it to the first page and the very first page was anthropologist and so I wrote. 09:48.63 Tommy Ng Now. 09:50.83 Anna Home guide. 09:51.72 archyfantasies I wrote a 5 ive-paragraph essay about how I wanted to be an anthropologist when I grew up. Um and then when I actually went to college I actually went to college for um forensics I I originally started off in forensics. Um, so I studied a lot of human osteology and criminal justice and then. Um, so my undergraduate is obviously an anthropology like pretty much everybody and when I graduated with my undergraduate I needed to work and 1 of the master's students who was helping me out with my undergrad project mentioned shovel bums. And so I went to shovel bums and I got my first crm job and I've basically been doing crm ever since. So and I I enjoy it. It's it's not your typical origin story. 10:33.63 archpodnet That is awesome. 10:41.49 archpodnet Um, all right? So okay, tell me about the digging to the other side podcast. What is it where to come from. What's the goal. 10:55.69 Anna I was I'm I'm going to toss this one over to Sarah first really look. 10:55.73 Tommy Ng That's between you and Anna isn't it Sarah you get started? Yeah and and. 11:02.52 archyfantasies Chickens. Um, so ah so I wanted to do all right? So I do do a lot of podcasts and obviously my first child was the archeological fantasies podcast and from yeah it is. It's a good kid. 11:14.90 Anna Good kid. 11:19.50 archyfantasies Um, from there I started. The I had the idea to start the women in archeology podcast and I got a great ah crew of ladies who run who have been running that podcast for years Now. Um. But I truly enjoyed getting it started and I thought it was important to have a feminist I view of Archeology. Um, and and the the hosts of the women in archeology Podcast I mean they they took that idea they ran with it. They've made it their own I mean I I cannot tell you how proud I am of that Podcast. Um. And so with that in mind ah last year I Really I really started getting interested in where where are all the people where are all the Asian people in American history. Um, because they don't exist I mean it's not that they don't exist. It's just. They they were no but that's the thing like if you go and do if you go and try to do basic research just like basic research. Not like the deep dives that we can do as Archaeologists If you're just a casual observer trying to find Asian Americans or just even. 12:14.88 archpodnet Any. 12:34.20 archyfantasies Asian people in American history. It's very very hard to do um which got me thinking about like you know the Asian the stop Asian Hate movement and just all of the stuff with the plague and I was just like look this is a whole demographic in this country and. 12:44.31 Anna This is. 12:53.64 archyfantasies I mean I don't hear anything from them that doesn't mean they're not talking. It's just I as a white person am not hearing this sound and so I was like well let's throw a let's throw a net out there and see if I can find anybody interested in being on a podcast who are themselves um, at the time I was looking for. Asian archaeologists Asian American and America being like north and south of both continents. Um, yeah, and they and then Tommy came along and I was just like well crap. This is all gone now that is true that is true that is also true. 13:17.66 Anna And then we accidentally got tommy. 13:20.32 Tommy Ng Why you? well you that that that's because annaated me for a few weeks you and. 13:26.60 Anna And if it's like whoops. Well yeah, and then Sarah bated me. So yeah. 13:33.27 archyfantasies And then I just I Anna stepped up and was interested I told Darrel he was going to be on the podcast. He didn't fight me on it. Yeah anna rope Tommy and Brian actually volunteered so we do. 13:37.31 Anna Have a choice. Yeah, we love Brian Brian's loan. We all love. 13:45.54 Tommy Ng Yeah, um, no. 13:45.81 Bryan Baldeon Thanks to Twitter I I seen it on Twitter and I'm south american so hey, let's do it. 13:48.66 archyfantasies Yeah Brian was like hey I'd like to do that and I was like sucker there you go um and we we've just recently gotten 1 more person interested. So hopefully we'll have some new episodes. Yeah, so I mean it it wit somewhere. 13:51.30 Anna Ah, yeah, at least 1 more we've yeah we've but we've been reached out to by a couple others but people first. 14:08.58 archyfantasies Um, and then we recorded the. 14:10.59 Anna Well sorry to cut you off, but it it for for people to ah, start being interested in being a guest and speaking on this podcast they wanted to see it first. It looked like you they wanted to they wanted to see that this was legitimate and not maybe even not like a tokenizing kind of thing. 14:17.62 archyfantasies Yeah, they wanted to see the product. 14:26.63 archyfantasies And I want very much for it to not be perceived that way and it's it has been. It has been difficult for me personally to navigate that because I don't want it to come off as that way like it's yeah I mean you can't get past the fact that I am white and I organized it. 14:30.13 Anna N. 14:43.37 Anna Are. 14:46.13 archyfantasies But it's in ultimately this will not be my podcast. It'll just be a podcast that I got started and y'all hopefully y'all will take it and run with it like the women in archaeology did excuse me. 14:55.26 Tommy Ng And and also I want to say is like yeah even we're we're like an Asian Centric Podcast I I think it's porn that like info you're white your views come from that perspective right? and and we could bounce off. 15:09.60 archyfantasies Yeah. 15:10.73 Anna Yeah. 15:11.46 Tommy Ng Ining your perspective and even even Brian because I know he's working on a chinatown even like he's a young student like even then like he could ask us questions because like Anna and I you mean and I and Sarah you and I be new this for a long time right? and be nice to have a a student to ask us question and keep us on our toes right? yeah. 15:21.66 archyfantasies Yeah, yeah. 15:26.49 Anna We have a lot of perspectives here and together. It's yeah we came together with the purpose of talking as Asian hyphenated archeologists. But we all have come from very different backgrounds and experiences in archeology or exposure to it and so it. 15:28.90 archyfantasies We do. 15:30.87 Tommy Ng We do? Yeah and. 15:45.11 Tommy Ng Yeah, and I I like the idea because we're also part of the greater um demographics of North America you know? So so we're gonna bring I I like that we're gonna bring a whole different perspective on this like we're Goingnna still be. We're so mightnna try to keep more list to the asian theme. But I think I think what we're gonna bring whole different perspectives to that. 15:45.15 Anna It Meshes together pretty well I find. 15:49.90 archyfantasies Um. 15:56.10 archyfantasies M. 16:00.60 Anna Um. 16:03.40 archyfantasies Well that that's the actual driving goal is. It's not. It's not to just study Asian themed archeology in the American continents. It's to hear Asian hyphenated voices talking about archeology like the the goal is to. 16:04.92 Tommy Ng Here? yeah. 16:22.82 archyfantasies Basically have asian archeologists talking about archaeology. You can talk about any aspect of archeology. You want to? it's it's just important that it's being said from certain perspectives like Tommy keeps saying and that's why it's important to have Darrel and Brian on because. 16:27.65 Anna And. 16:34.19 Anna Yeah. 16:38.49 archyfantasies You know Brian's bringing that undergraduate perspective that that's starting off perspective and Darrel has that outside perspective. Um, it keeps everybody grounded I think we have a good crew I'm I'm really impressed with the crew. So. 16:47.58 Anna Yeah, oh yeah, and and that's how Sarah pitched the idea to me too that like you know it's not just talking about. Um you know, ah internment camps every time let's say or or chinatown every time let's say but also just. Our experiences as asian heritage archaeologists in this field focusing on our position as archeologists and in the perspective we have as archaeologists but just with different backgrounds and I really liked that and you know me and Sarah had been friends for like about. 17:15.93 archyfantasies Is it. 17:22.85 Anna You know, almost two years at the time you pitched this idea to me and if it had been anybody else I would have questioned it but because it was Sarah and because I've I've been so proud and impressed of all of her projects I knew that this would be a good one to be a part of one that I could pitch to other people and not worry about it. 17:23.95 archyfantasies Here. Yeah. Oh. 17:38.57 archyfantasies Um, I was actually really hesitant to come to Anna because like she and I had had a discussion about how she had just been put without being asked. Someone had just put her on a discussion panel about um. 17:40.83 Anna And. 17:52.89 Anna Oh yeah I think that's where I met Tommy yeah I just got added. Yeah I didn't sign up. 17:56.50 archyfantasies Race and a inclusivity in. Ah yeah, but she's just like yeah they just they just added me and I was just like oh that's a bad thing is she's like yes, just because like I'm the only asian person in the room and I'm just like oh maybe I shouldn't talk to Dannna about this. 17:57.58 Tommy Ng Um, that's where we went. Yeah. 18:09.63 Tommy Ng And. 18:11.44 Anna And but but at that same conference too where I met where I met Tommy and then and Sarah you caught a bunch of my presentations particularly the solo one I did I pitched an idea that I brought to the association for Washington Archeology diversity committee which was you know going into archeology. 18:17.46 archyfantasies E e. 18:30.87 Anna I didn't have any mentors or anybody who looked like me in this field. Um, and so you know part of it was exciting to me like I could be 1 of the first in my area I could you know, bring something new and get something new going and inspire a new kind of archaeologist to come into this field at least in Eastern Washington right but then it's hard when when you don't have a mentor like you and when things get difficult and you're wondering you know am I just going against the grain and I'm going to get weeded out of this field. Yeah I don't have anyone I can talk to about my unique experiences and nobody around me seems to have them and so. 18:51.20 archyfantasies You hear. 19:07.47 Anna I pitched this idea to ah awa that I want to do a Youtube docu series. Um interviewing um underrepresented ah archaeologists in archaeology or or within the realm of archaeology and. That idea was well received. But you know we were just thinking like how can we do this and protect the participants. How can we? How can we do this who do we reach out to the logistics just kind of like went on for a while I pitched the project I idea at the conference but then it never went anywhere and then when Sarah. Told me about this idea of a podcast I thought this is the this is a way I can do it now. This is I can I can be that person and I can talk with other of mentors that I would have liked to have like Tommy that I'm so glad I met and so yeah. 19:57.57 archyfantasies Well I know this is something that Brian's mentioned too is you know in his classes Brian Weren you talking about? Um well I mean you were talking about representation in your classes just your undergraduate your graduate classes weren't you. 20:13.67 Bryan Baldeon Um, ah yeah, so um I feel like I'm the only Latino ah in my classes that is in anthropology or archaeology and so just being here and just. 20:30.27 Anna Um. 20:30.62 Bryan Baldeon Being on the Discord and learning from all of you is even just adding more to what I'm learning and I'm trying just trying to figure it out and trying to I'm like wow this is a lot but ah still haven't got my feet wet but hopefully this summer 20:42.10 Anna Yeah, yeah, yeah, like and and Tommy was saying too I remember during 1 of our episodes. Ah Tommy and I were talking a little bit about how we don't have archeologists in our families or. 20:47.22 Tommy Ng Is. 20:49.47 archyfantasies Sucker. 21:01.54 Anna Families that really kind of understand going into a field like this and then me, especially um, being a girl. My mom's looking at this and she's just like this is not a field for girls. This is not a field for my daughter and I don't know what to say back home in the Philippines what my my daughter is doing and you know. 21:03.31 archyfantasies Here. 21:20.33 Anna Hopefully this is just a trend and she'll trickle out of it and go into a field more fitting of a girl and that's that's tough at home and then in the field I'm not seeing um you know other Asian American archeologists but much less female. Um Asian American archeologists and then I'm just like well you know again will I get weeded out. Is my is is my family waiting for this to happen. But I'm still here. So. 21:42.19 Tommy Ng No, no cause you're right cause like it's in our like in my culture or like the Chinese culture like we this is archeology is not economically viable as a profession I mean the whole point is you want to make a good living right? So you look at careers that you can make a lot of money in. 21:51.37 Anna And. 21:52.13 archyfantasies Um. 21:59.75 Anna Right. 22:00.58 Tommy Ng Become a doctor a lawyer or whatever about archeology and also the the culture varies because in my culture like we don't look in the past we look forward. Why do you need to dig up the past the past is the past right? and so you need to look forward and so my family they they can't see that he said that. 22:00.59 archyfantasies Here. No. 22:12.17 Anna Right. 22:12.42 archyfantasies Yeah. 22:19.40 Tommy Ng My parents don't see that that they say there's no point in you don't need to got the pass you need look forward right? And so yeah, so the equate that of archeology d um, ah without realizing in China there's been a lot of great archaeological projects been happening I mean Chinas China's proud of its its past right? which is. 22:23.10 archyfantasies Um, yeah, this yeah. 22:32.86 archyfantasies Yeah. 22:39.26 Tommy Ng Ironic Although the whole thing you know so like so I used to tell my parents all that and there's like what that's they say that's different. It hasn't do It hasn't do with you as living as as a young man who needs to get married have a wife become a dollar and make lots of money you know so they today. 22:52.90 archyfantasies So and that that's interesting that that kind of like ah that that family pressure is interesting to me because I mean that's that's part of this is why it's important to have podcasts that are talk that are in voices that are not just white. 22:56.89 Tommy Ng Yeah. 22:58.31 Anna Um. 23:06.28 Anna Right. 23:09.60 archyfantasies White people this this is exactly why it's Important. It's not a people need to hear people need to see themselves represented in the media but also like these are experiences that are probably pretty common in a certain demographic that I can't speak to because I'm not part of that. And and never will be I mean it's just that's this this reality of the situation. So You know. 23:31.50 Tommy Ng And and then speaking when we just go back to the role models like speaking of role models like I mean in ive in this c rn for over 25 years and I didn't for the longest time at least where I'm from in western county I'm the I was the only asian in CRM and then. 23:31.99 archpodnet Yeah, that's. 23:40.60 archyfantasies E. 23:50.78 Tommy Ng I didn't and then I I figure I'm probably did love the longest the most senior Asian Canadian in CRMWesternCanada and next to no um I realize I'm becoming a role model for young I'm a I'm a bad role model tell you true, but like know but i. 23:59.40 archyfantasies He. Comedy is a great role model. 24:09.65 Tommy Ng I had recently I just talked to a young archaeologist and he's of Chinese ethnicity of Chinese heritage and he's looking I'm helping him out to gain the business and stuff I them and we talked a bit and stuff like that. So so yeah, encouraging others you know, like so why? not because I can't do this forever. You know So I. 24:22.60 archyfantasies Yeah. 24:29.36 Tommy Ng You know I I'm I'm over 50 So I'd like to retire soon. 24:34.38 Anna Ah, yeah I was going to say. 24:35.24 archyfantasies Archeologists don't retire. They just die in the field but there we go there, you go. 24:35.63 Tommy Ng Um, yeah, no, you know. 24:36.47 archpodnet Well on that note we are at the end of our first segment. Um, but we'll be right back having more of this amazing conversation that I'm very excited for so be right back. Everyone. 24:47.72 Anna Citizen. 24:48.66 Daryl See you. 24:53.82 archyfantasies Daryl. 24:54.10 Daryl Hey you want me to jump in right. 24:54.13 Tommy Ng Go for? yeah.