00:00.46 archpodnet Welcome to the sear archeology podcast episode two thirty nine bonus segment and I want to say a special. Thank you to our members because if you're listening to this, you support us in all our efforts and we really greatly appreciate that if you're listening to this in May of 2022 we are currently running a contest you as a member get an entry automatically. But if you refer somebody else and just let us know you referred them. There's no real official channels for this just send something in the slack channel or email me Chris at Rlg Podcastnetwork Dot Com let me know you referred somebody once they sign up, you'll get an extra entry and this is to win a screen. Any screen on their website from Aeo's screen and you can see you can see some of the details and I think there's an ad in the in the regular show about it. So anyway, we'll be running that until the end of may and then we'll pick an entry and then you can just contact them and pick out basically anything from the website. So if you want more entries and more chances to win that please. Refer somebody and and help us keep these types of things going all right? Well as promised. We still got bill burns on and we are going to talk well Andrew you wanted to talk to him about some of the gear and equipment and other things required to do this so I'll let you take it from there. 01:13.65 Andrew Kinkella Yes, so since this is the bonus segment. You know the gloves are off and so I'm just going to Gri Bill now yeah Yeah oh here it comes ah so yeah, underwater archeologist to underwater archaeologist bill. Ah. 01:18.37 Bill Burns Ah I'm ready to geek out. 01:20.29 archpodnet That's right? okay. 01:21.53 Heather I'm I'm sorry Belle I'm sorry. Ah. 01:32.28 Andrew Kinkella And I'm curious about some of the more specifics about like diving for a crm project itself. Um, you know the the equipment that you're going to use the number of Dives per day this kind of thing so in terms of. 01:42.84 Bill Burns Human sugar. 01:50.71 Andrew Kinkella A CRMArcheology dive um first how many projects have you worked on where they where they have those yeah where where where you've been a part of this because to me it seems so rare. You know. 01:58.46 Bill Burns Divers in the water. 02:02.27 Bill Burns It it is rare um, to be honest, like a lot of a lot of projects kind of get resolved before any field work anyway, so let's see let's say in California I have about 5 or 6 02:09.90 Andrew Kinkella Right. 02:19.47 Andrew Kinkella Right. 02:21.26 Bill Burns Um, going on back in the East Coast is probably also 6 or 7 going on and then in England I was working on few. Um, but yeah I would say ah each project is vastly different from. 02:26.74 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 02:40.32 Andrew Kinkella Right? Yeah, right? and to to me your number of 5 or 6 on the west coast is an amazingly high number because there is so there tends to be unfortunately so little. 02:40.89 Bill Burns The other project you know so each one is going to have a but different set of equipment or you know, just kind of survey strategies and whatnot. 02:52.40 Bill Burns Got me. 02:58.98 Andrew Kinkella Like underwater archeology going on in the underwater archeology world. There's much more on the East Coast and the caribbean you know so that you've been a yeah that you've been a part of that many is really great. So on a typical west coast project. Ah if there and I know there isn't really such thing but to. 03:04.90 Bill Burns Yeah, a Caribbean food. 03:18.32 Andrew Kinkella What when you think of it how how first how many dives a day. Are you guys going to do. 03:22.59 Bill Burns Um, you know it's a wuy aim or budget for about 3 dives a day. Um, we could push to four if we'd like to and I know you're you're a dive master. Um, so. 03:28.70 Andrew Kinkella Um. Right? mm. 03:41.45 Bill Burns You know, a lot of these guys. Ah, you can push it. You know you could do like 6 times a day and still be fine for the next day you know it kind of all depends on how long those dives are going to be yeah exactly. Yeah. 03:46.93 Andrew Kinkella Yes, but you're also really cold and really tired. 03:57.15 Bill Burns And you know you got to work once you get to the you know after the diving anyways. so so I feel 3 dives a day is enough to you know, keep my body happy and keep my mind. Happy is is really know. Don't want to push it. 03:57.69 Andrew Kinkella Yes. 04:03.35 Andrew Kinkella Absolutely yes and then in those dives like um, is there a depth that you guys are working at is it all over the place or you know is there sort of a average. 04:18.43 Bill Burns It's it's all over the place. Most of my projects have been more insure in other their wars or kind of continental shell stuff. So I'd say depths easy range in general from like shallow stuff to like twenty feet to 04:22.36 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 04:32.44 Andrew Kinkella Right. 04:35.47 Bill Burns Down to like sixty feet or so um and that would just be like diving. You know once you get deeper than that it gets really hard to send divers into the water repeatedly you know because you're doing decompression stops and whatnot. 04:45.14 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, yeah, so have you had to work on anything deeper in that like have you had something at Ninety feet or anything like that. Wow. 04:55.67 Bill Burns Have yeah I'm not diving Um, but ah but I've done sight scan sonar work in ah in deeper waters. 05:04.27 Andrew Kinkella Oh yeah, very cool. Um, and then as you do these? Let's say let's say you're going out and you're bringing your kit you know for divers out there. You're bc your tank you know all that kind of stuff on. 05:16.16 Bill Burns There. 05:20.91 Andrew Kinkella On these dives on these West Coast Dives Are you just doing like a single tank dive are you double tank. Um, do you have like the scientific diver set up or do you do sort of a more regular bc like what? what's your what's your kind of kit setup. What's your rig. 05:33.82 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, once again, it's It's really depending on the and the diving I'd say normally um I just kind of go for a versatile. You know I wear steel high pressure eighty s and that that usually keeps me down for quite a while and yeah I usually. 05:38.67 Andrew Kinkella Um. 05:45.83 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. 05:52.93 Bill Burns Like ah a mix mix air that I'm breathing. You know it's usually not street here just because of getting old. It's a lot easier that way. Um, nitroxy Yep you know I Um I usually don't go to trimax or anything like that unless. 05:58.73 Andrew Kinkella Yes, and and by but mixed air is that is that nitros. Yeah yeah. 05:59.42 Heather So. 06:10.93 Bill Burns But ah but I have done projects too where it's been easier actually to just have a so actually get my start in diving doing more commercial type of work I work for more in company and we would install and repair more ins. 06:20.74 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 06:26.84 Andrew Kinkella Wow! yeah. 06:29.30 Bill Burns So when I was doing that I was in the water like you know 8 to 10 hours a day and I would have a umbilical surface feed back to the boat. So sometimes I find actually if you're working in kind of like more shallow water like forty forty feet in above. It's easier just to have you know. 06:43.13 Andrew Kinkella Who. 06:46.86 Bill Burns Ah, big tank on the boat and you know umbilical up to it and that way you can just stay down all the time and I'm also just kind of used to used to that Rick as ah as a surface feed but you know danger than that is someone might step on your feet up on the boat which has happened to me too. 06:48.89 Andrew Kinkella Right? right. Um. 07:00.38 Andrew Kinkella Oh my God Ah so um, yeah, this is really great. This is really interesting for me because this is the stuff I Always wonder about you know for and ah sort of an underwater archeology project because we as we talked about earlier. It's so all over the map. You know everyone kind of. 07:02.11 Heather So yeah. 07:16.42 Bill Burns Um, and. 07:19.93 Andrew Kinkella Does it differently and just hearing from you. You know about like look we use a steel eighty um so and that was a single tank steel 80 right? Yeah yeah, yes I agree so no singles the way to go. Um. 07:27.20 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, usually don't go double have before about it. It's just a pain. Yeah. 07:36.90 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, single spiel eighty sort of a regular setup you know with with nitrox. Um, that makes that makes a lot sense just there I'm kind of ah learning and and it's also just a checkmark for my own self I'm like oh good. That's that's largely what I do So I'm. 07:42.19 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah. 07:50.68 Bill Burns Sure, Yeah, yeah, and that's that's kind of the other benefit is like you know you're often diving with people that you don't might not regularly dive with. So if you just have kind of a more normal kit than if something goes wrong Your dive buddy is going to know you know. 07:55.86 Andrew Kinkella Not doing anything too stupid. You know. 08:05.60 Andrew Kinkella Yes. 08:09.97 Bill Burns Where your octopus is or you know where your weights are you know it's just simpler that way. 08:11.83 Andrew Kinkella Yep, Absolutely, That's what that's what I've done sort of in my entire career of this. It's just like the keep it simple stupid mentality. You know, doubly so honestly in the in the jungle for me like if I'm diving the sanotes. 08:16.76 Bill Burns Sure exactly here. Oh My god. 08:28.13 Andrew Kinkella You know it sounds like it's going to be the highest of high technology and it's like no in the jungle We want the lowest of low technology. You know so that's you know it's it. 08:33.62 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I would actually be curious. What? Ah what do you use in this andot days. 08:44.48 Andrew Kinkella What I do is I divide it into 3 um depending on depth if if we're like a fifteen feet or shallower I'm telling you you can do all kinds of things with a snorkel. You know me too see. We're broing out over snorkels. Um. 08:53.21 Bill Burns Oh yeah, absolutely yeah, that's my favorite. Yeah yeah. 09:03.53 Andrew Kinkella It's my favorite because it's the most freeing you know you don't have to all the junk on your back. Ah yeah, you just go up. Ah so we do that and then and then at at I guess I would call normal depth you know from Twenty feet to I don't know ninety eighty feet nine to eighty feet um 09:04.65 Bill Burns Yeah, nothing goes wrong with it. Yeah. 09:21.46 Andrew Kinkella It's very much what you just described. Although we use aluminum eighty s in Central America just because they're so much more common. Ah, but but it's a nitros situation and then for the deep stuff which is in the sinotes down to two hundred and forty feet um I know I don't do that. 09:26.31 Bill Burns Oh sure. Yeah. 09:41.18 Andrew Kinkella Ah, we have I've was fortunate enough to ah dive with National Geographic divers a few times and it was just an amazing experience. But those guys go down and they use trimix and rebreathers depending on their personal choice. So that's how we run it and that that sort of. 09:45.80 Bill Burns Oh cool. 09:51.43 Bill Burns Maybe me? Oh yeah. 10:00.12 Andrew Kinkella 3 layer thing I just came up with that from over time and I'm always asking other underwater archeologists you know, does this sound okay is this foolish you know, um, just because there's like we talked about at the beginning. There's no magical book to go look up. You know you just you. 10:02.66 Bill Burns Getting. 10:10.79 Bill Burns Uma. 10:15.80 Bill Burns Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, um, yeah I Hope you don't mind me turning the tables and interviewing you now, but ah, but ah, do you have a because. 10:19.51 Andrew Kinkella Yeah. Oh I'm angry and Appalled. No Absolutely you know because it's cool. 10:32.55 Bill Burns Because for me, you know all the diving as usually been off a boat or you know with it when it is sure you know there's a parking lot close by when you're working in sanotess in the middle of jungled is it is it tricky to get equipment out there. 10:34.80 Andrew Kinkella Yes. Yes. 10:44.78 Andrew Kinkella Yes, next question. Um, and no, what's funny is my next question for you was gonna be boat or beach you know and so I'm guess on your side. It's mostly boat. 10:52.87 Bill Burns Um, boat is definitely ah preferable to me and most I would say 8 out of 10 times is usually hit the diagon and I do here. 11:02.74 Andrew Kinkella Right? Okay, yeah that that makes ah a lot of sense. So The soote stuff. It's it's driving everything out in a truck and attempting to get the the truck somewhere close to the sinotte and then worst case, it's. Carrying everything on your back through the jungle to the simote. So yeah, the equipment thing is brutal and and then having a place to fill the tanks and all that stuff which is going to be really really far away. So ah, there's a lot of planning. 11:24.52 Bill Burns I Could this. Now. 11:37.51 Andrew Kinkella You know Beforehand just in terms of where do we get the tanks filled So mm right? and then on your kit. Um, do you have anything else. 11:38.72 Bill Burns Oh yeah, oh sure I got it. Likers say every project is different. You know you're just not going to know the challenges until you start. 11:53.43 Andrew Kinkella Special because so far what we've talked about is amazingly you know, very very normal. Ah Scuba diving equipment. Do you have any extras that you bring with you like oh I always have my little knife or I always have my you know light like what do you do you have any extras. 11:55.87 Bill Burns I. 12:05.26 Bill Burns Yeah, you know for safety's sake I always carry a you know knife and a light and ah ah, a sausage for for those I don't know a sausage is a little inflatable orange safety thing. So if you get stuck somewhere you can put it to the surface. So I just have those basic safety stuff. 12:08.85 Andrew Kinkella Um. Um, yeah. 12:24.34 Bill Burns Specific Archeological equipment. Um often I have a writing slate you know, just the write down notes. Um I've been on a few underwater jobs where we're kind of doing ah Surveys almost like on land like ah, a transect at a bearing and a distance. 12:28.41 Andrew Kinkella Right. 12:38.34 Andrew Kinkella Um, right. 12:42.66 Bill Burns So when that's the case you know I always have my compass but you know I'll get a lot more use out of there and then we always have a a trail line. You know a real that will lead us back to the the downline because you know like we're saying five feet of visibility is pretty good. So binding your downline is. 12:49.31 Andrew Kinkella Um, right? yes. 13:01.30 Bill Burns Can be tricky sometimes. 13:01.34 Andrew Kinkella Absolutely do do you guys ever? Do you ever bring underwater paper. 13:05.92 Bill Burns Yes, I've tried that a few times and I've actually found as long as you prepare it pretty well, it works really? Well you know you have to tape it down to a slate um or like a you know a Clipboard or something. And you can usually find pretty good ways to you know set up a bunch of sheets. You know, like ah 10 sheets in a row and kind of flip them as you go um, it's there's definitely ah, a bit of an art to it I feel just keeping the pages straight underwater but you get used to it I guess. 13:26.80 archpodnet I. 13:29.74 Andrew Kinkella Yes, yes, yes. 13:39.89 archpodnet Um, what about the this is now now my interest is getting a little well now I would say my interest This has all been incredibly interesting, but my knowledge and Expertise is coming into play now What about digital recording underwater is that even ah, a thing or a tablet's just or whatever you would use just. 13:57.20 Bill Burns Um, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, know, Um, one of my new favorite pieces. Equipment is just kind of a normal gopro in ah and a housing the man the video you get out of just a gopro is. 13:57.99 archpodnet Not quite there when it comes to underwater yet. 13:58.63 Andrew Kinkella Dude but bill. What would you say. 14:08.81 Andrew Kinkella Are. 14:09.39 archpodnet Yeah, yeah. 14:14.57 Andrew Kinkella Oh it's Killer. Yeah. 14:15.56 archpodnet Oh yeah. 14:15.58 Bill Burns Really incredible these days. It's crystal clear. Yeah, but really good and it's as far as you know, archeological or dive equipment goes. Yeah, it's not that expensive. Um so digital recording. Absolutely, It's great. 14:22.96 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, but in terms of typing or anything underwater like there's a you know I don't know of any real like pad or anything that you could type on it which is with your with your hands and gloves and stuff. Oh man. 14:23.13 archpodnet Sure. So yeah. 14:33.28 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've never used an ipad or anything like that I don't know if that's a thing. 14:37.50 archpodnet Sure Yeah I guess it wouldn't work. It wouldn't work for like sketching with a some sort of a stylus or anything like that either. Even if it was all sized to work underwater with the gloves and stuff or is it just it just easier to use paper. 14:41.22 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 14:47.46 Andrew Kinkella Um, ah to me? Yeah, because like the underwater paper that we're talking about what's cool is you basically just use a regular pencil and and it's ah you can deal with it your hands used to kind of holding it so you can kind of um. 14:53.41 Bill Burns Um, now. Um, death. 14:58.21 archpodnet Oh okay. 15:05.86 Andrew Kinkella For me, it works pretty well I love ah Bill. What do? what do you think about writing underwater. 15:06.18 archpodnet You have. 15:08.69 Bill Burns Yeah, no I'm I'm total underwater writing paper fan I'm with you if I've never used any kind of tablet or anything like underwater I I've actually never even heard of it being used before but Paperworks fine. 15:12.46 Andrew Kinkella Um, and Of. Um, yeah, yeah, it's because of the pressure crystal you know and keeping it water tight. That's the that's the biggie. 15:20.70 archpodnet Um, okay oh yeah I bet. Yeah yeah, all right guys? Well I think ah this has been a really great bonus segment. Why don't we I want to wrap this up with just like maybe for bill and for Andrew if. 15:27.11 Bill Burns Ah. 15:39.35 archpodnet Again, It's a blank check question if money were no object. What is the piece of gear you wish could be invented or if it's already invented. You wish you had ah just to make this better bill will start with you. 15:43.98 Andrew Kinkella Um, ah. 15:47.68 Bill Burns Ah, oh I want one of those saver to set endurance 22 was using that is my Cadillac right now. 15:50.19 Andrew Kinkella Ah, right. 15:54.25 Heather Of course. 15:58.78 archpodnet Nice, nice. 15:58.95 Andrew Kinkella Ah see I I operate in a smaller world than bill. Okay, um I think you know what I think I would just want a really really high end dive computer just one of those. 16:14.30 Bill Burns Happy. Nice. 16:14.11 archpodnet Um, yeah. 16:18.44 Andrew Kinkella Really awesome ones. It just records everything they got like the screen on there and stuff because you know I I tend to operate old school but but having just a high end dive computer that shows everything records Everything it's got like wi-fi you know, like that that would be great for me. 16:28.70 archpodnet Yeah, you know I was wondering just thinking of like I don't know future Applications. You know one of the impediments to diving underwater of course is you know air. You You can't use things like tablets and stuff like that just because of the water and the pressure and you know things getting in and just all those sorts of things. Do you think it would be possible ever or is this just like structurally and logistically unsound. But. I'm thinking of the old diving bells right? where they literally just went up inside of a metal thing and and then went down and then eventually they decided to pump some extra air in there and that was you know a big benefit but I'm thinking of something akin to like a huge submarine or structure that could be brought to the to the sea floor. 16:58.66 Andrew Kinkella Are. Sister system. Yeah. 17:18.14 archpodnet Around the thing that you're trying to excavate and completely opened up and have the water sucked out of it So you've got like ah like a you know like ah like a breathing environment where you could just like walk around on the sea flooror. But I mean I don't I don't know if anything like that would even be logistically possible because how deep into the sea floor would you have to get it. 17:24.27 Andrew Kinkella Oh. 17:29.80 Heather Oh these. 17:30.24 Bill Burns What happening. 17:37.77 archpodnet To make it you know tight enough. The water's not getting in or you have or you're constantly pumping out or something you think something like that is logistically possible or would even be desirable. 17:45.41 Bill Burns Well actually ah Chris say they kind of have that right now. Um those those yeah I believe they did yeah they well yeah, they have the the alvin there's like little little submarines going down which are pretty cool. But even today they have a. 17:46.81 Heather Something yeah, did that for Titanic right? didn't they have us submergible for titanic that went down. Yeah. 17:49.21 archpodnet Really. 17:59.00 Heather Okay. 18:04.94 Bill Burns These diving bells that they used to use back in the day but they still use them. Um I haven't heard it used in an archaeological context but I know you know offshore welders and contract divers use those kind of thing these crazy people called saturation divers which is probably some of the most hardcore diving I've ever heard were. 18:13.00 archpodnet Sure. 18:18.67 Andrew Kinkella Go yeah. 18:23.88 Bill Burns Someone goes down in one of these diving bells and you know works during the day for two weeks down there and just kind of loose in this bell and because they're at a depthpt. You know it takes takes a while for them to decompress to come to the surface. So it's just easier for them to live down there. 18:24.64 archpodnet Um, yeah, wow. 18:27.70 Heather Oh my gosh. 18:28.60 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, brutal. 18:42.19 Heather Oh my good I didn't know. 18:42.62 Bill Burns I Don't want to ever do that I don't want that to come into archaeology but but they do exist. 18:45.40 Andrew Kinkella Ah, ah yeah, ah, scary. Yeah, but you know in terms of if you were to magically be able to put a huge sort of dome over something and then pump the water out. 18:47.71 archpodnet Nice, nice up. 18:56.35 archpodnet Death. 18:57.37 Bill Burns Um, and. 18:59.29 Andrew Kinkella But if it were if the shipwreck was in there like it needs the water you know, just like any other archeological. Yeah, once you take the water out. It's just it's going to. You know it could rust in 2 seconds or it just fall in on itself. You know it needs the support. 19:01.83 Bill Burns Um, yeah. 19:02.30 archpodnet Oh yeah, right. 19:06.42 Bill Burns Now. 19:11.58 archpodnet Crazy. Yeah. 19:11.71 Bill Burns Yeah, that's another interesting part of fund our archaeology. We didn't really get into which is huge is just the artifact conservation is so complicated. 19:14.48 Andrew Kinkella Um, ah yeah. 19:18.67 Heather Yeah, yeah I could see this being a really good topic for the Archeo Tech podcast. You could just hope you could just talk for a while on all the because I'm I'm not curious and we can't get into it I know but I would be really curious and see what. 19:26.22 archpodnet Oh yeah, for sure. 19:26.58 Andrew Kinkella Um. 19:37.93 Heather Technology is created like you were talking about welders and and there there is a whole so sector of you know, underwater technicians and and how much of that technology is being shifted or that archaeology is using or can afford I mean those things are the people that work. 19:45.48 archpodnet And. 19:48.81 Bill Burns Definitely. 19:56.10 Heather You know it's for laying lines you know transatlantic type of you know, laying lines so they have all the money to do that where you know a lot of times archeology or you know what about combining where you know they're going out there already like having archeologists like you know terrestrial. 19:58.75 archpodnet Yeah. 20:04.37 archpodnet For sure. 20:14.67 Heather I'm always asking our clients. You know, let's minimize the cost as much as possible by whenever you have your geotech you know studies occurring let the archaeologists out there. You're already going in you know and having that combining efforts So having archaeologists on some of these. 20:23.78 Bill Burns Moving? yeah. 20:23.83 archpodnet Yeah now. 20:33.73 Heather Projects that are already working Underwater would be kind of I would think good good way to go. But yeah. 20:36.69 archpodnet Um, yeah. 20:37.98 Bill Burns Absolutely yeah. 20:41.26 archpodnet Okay, well I think we'll end it there bill thanks for sticking around for a fourth segment for our members. We really appreciate it. Yeah and Heather thanks for for again, bringing this topic around to us because this has been incredibly interesting. 20:47.70 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, thank you. 20:57.54 Heather You're welcome I Love it. Thanks Mill Really appreciate it. 20:57.75 Bill Burns Ah, thank you on great Evan. 20:58.45 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, that was great. 21:00.30 archpodnet Yeah, all right and a special thanks to our members for listening to this and we really appreciate it again if you want to get an extra entry for the screen this month may 2022 if you're listening. Then please refer somebody and again you already get an entry for being a member. Thank you for that but please refer somebody and you will get another one and help us out and keep these things going so again, we appreciate you be a members and thanks a lot. Be sure to share this on all your socials and we will see you next time. Thank you.