00:00.00 archaeoteacup Welcome back and this is just such a fantastic view. Great spot for a picnic. So Alex now that we know a bit more about you know a bit more about the situation. Let's maybe get some familiarity with dragons and start thinking about how we tackle this problem. So First of all, what is your experience as a. Experienced zoo archeologist and dragon rider what experience? Do you have with kind of the mythology of dragons or the background of how dragons came to be shall we say. 00:29.26 Alex I Mean yeah I personally have not really experienced dragons as much. Um in the zoo archeological context. But I mean I think Dragons are you know they're so ubiquitous. They're found across cultures. So I'm. 00:47.78 Alex Mixed my mom's side family from China so obviously grew up with a lot of dragon paraphernalia um, and obviously that's so much different than say dragons from norse mythology my dads saw the family's from Norway I also had a lot of. Ah, norwegian dragons I was very dragon. Ah very dragon-heavy childhood I think I know yeah and yet I'm not my my chinese zodiac is not a dragon unfortunately I'm a rooster. Yeah, it's a bit of a bummer but I think my brother's a dragon. 01:10.48 archaeoteacup What this this and that you're really the perfect guest for this episode. But. 01:15.37 Ashleigh Airey Ah. 01:19.29 archaeoteacup Ah, wow that would have been great. 01:24.57 Alex Um, but yeah, no I mean I think I believe we even talked about dragons on a ah podcast episode on arguee animals because you know God forbid. We talk about real animals sometimes ah but more the myth mythological ones. Um. 01:34.27 archaeoteacup Is it. 01:37.88 Ashleigh Airey Um. 01:40.17 Alex But I we did it episode hate to talk cross talk about podcasts but I can I can share this aren you because I think it's interesting which is we did an episode about you know how people in the past looked at fossils because obviously they would run across them. So holy crap. 01:44.27 archaeoteacup That's fine. That's fine. Go ahead? Yeah yeah. 01:56.64 archaeoteacup Um, what was that I was about to say did someone just get shot and. 01:57.58 Ashleigh Airey What was that. 01:59.72 Alex Sorry someone just let someone just lit a firework right outside my house. No I'm okay, but my God Oh my God It was a dragon. Ah. 02:04.63 Ashleigh Airey I was like like ah but I stop talking about it. 02:14.96 Alex Oh scared way I'm okay, yeah anyway, so one of the things we found when we were like researching for the episode was that so there's Adrian Mayer who has this theory about how you know. 02:16.86 archaeoteacup Yeah, you okay, ah ah, okay, yeah. 02:33.29 Alex A lot of mythological creatures probably came from ah people in the past running into fossilized remains. So what dragons in particular, you know you're thinking about like um people running into dinosaurs or. 02:48.78 Ashleigh Airey And hope. 02:51.27 Alex Just generally large prehistoric mammals or reptiles which is to be fair, very debatable as a theory but I kind of understand where that's coming from yeah figured. 03:00.48 archaeoteacup Sorry, can we just pause for a second. Thanks I'll be back in a bit. 03:08.10 Ashleigh Airey They see that about cyclopses too. Don't they early hominids. Yeah, they think that because in the stocky kind of build that they found in the caves around Greece and that they. 03:13.54 archaeoteacup For dinosaur bones or for like other um. 03:19.50 Alex The. 03:25.10 Ashleigh Airey Kind of conjured the myth of the cyclops and stuff like that. 03:27.80 archaeoteacup Interesting. 03:27.66 Alex Yeah, it's either that or there is a species of doff elephant that was is now extinct obviously but we still live in parts of Italy Um, again the a lot of this is Vari readable because you know we don't really have too much. 03:36.74 Ashleigh Airey Um. 03:47.58 archaeoteacup Are. 03:47.94 Alex Ah, ah, like substantial evidence for it. Um, but like you you can understand where that cup like it makes sense in a logical way I don't think that's the case for everything per se but like with um fossils I mean that's idea still exists because in China. 03:52.40 Ashleigh Airey And. 03:52.13 archaeoteacup Yeah. 04:05.80 Alex Ah, dragon bones are referred to as Longco Longng go which is a um, they're called dragonbos that's dragon bones in chinese and they're uses an ingredienty in traditional chinese medicine and they're basically just fossilized bone like vertepro fragments of. 04:22.77 Ashleigh Airey Um. 04:23.31 Alex Usually prehistor mammals and reptiles because there's so many regions in China that are just they have so much fossils on it like there's a really big like fossil industry now in parts of China. So yeah, so that idea of fossilized bones as that dragon still exists. 04:35.94 archaeoteacup Really? ah. 04:40.80 archaeoteacup Um, but interesting that it is actually bones because I read somewhere about the fact that I have new is actually like cinnamon or something or I can't remember it like and so everyone's like I'm now going to be at you know's talking about adding I have new it to all of my Christmas hot chocolates and all these sort of things. But. 04:42.19 Alex Ah, even today which is really interesting. 04:42.53 Ashleigh Airey That. 04:48.75 Alex Yeah. 04:55.48 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 04:58.74 archaeoteacup But dragon bones is actually still bones. So maybe not not quite such a 1 05:02.97 Alex Yeah, a lot of ah animal products are actually really used in traditional Chinese medicine So we do have a lot of that kind of sort of stuff still being used medicinally. 05:05.98 archaeoteacup Now. Yeah. 05:13.28 archaeoteacup Ah, and I mean yeah I like that I that like you mentioned already that it's sort of in all all places really, you have something to do with dragons which ah, what's your ash. What's your favorite dragon based mythology. Do you have 1 05:23.91 Alex Um. 05:29.50 Ashleigh Airey Well yeah I have one them from Northumberland we have dragons. It's actually kind of one of our only stories that survived kind of industrialization and and all that we don't really have many mythology like mythological stories anyway, um from the north of northeast of england. 05:29.60 archaeoteacup That sounds like a very specific question but. 05:46.55 Ashleigh Airey But and we call them worms why? yeah RMS yeah worms and there's the Lamberton worm and ah basically the Lambton whim is worm is this tiny little wom right? little pink thing that was found. 05:47.27 archaeoteacup Oh but like WYRM yeah no oh. 06:06.90 Ashleigh Airey Um, and and the story goes. There's found in a well by a Knight who was growing off to the crusades. Of course he always goes off to the crusades. Um and he was like oh look at this tiny little thing. It's so sad I'll just throw it back in the well. But then when he goes off to the crusades the worm grows and grows and grows. 06:23.52 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 06:26.40 Ashleigh Airey And eats all the livestock and then terrorizes the villages and it's like around bambra castle as well. Um, so it it it kidnaps a princess but there's 2 versions of the stories where it's either his sister or his wife to be and and he comes back from the crusades and he has to kill this dragon. 06:34.45 archaeoteacup Classic. No. 06:41.90 archaeoteacup Um. 06:46.20 Ashleigh Airey Um, and he kills the dragon saves the princess presumably either. She marries another person because that's all of was way or or cause it's his sister or and she marries her. What is the version where he's not his sister and and everyone's happy in the the Lamberton womb has been slained. Yeah, that's the story anyway, yeah, George and the dragon kind of one. Yeah. 07:07.80 archaeoteacup That's like the classic dragon story though. Really right? like sort of yeah the kind of from from western europe I mean like obviously in other parts of the world. It's yeah, it's different and yeah I like obviously like Alex mentioned a chinese culture. Very big symbol. What I like as well is that it's always used as a symbol for something powerful. Like you never have like the soft dragon. It's always like yes the you know like the welsh flag. It's you know the authority of the Kings since I havet I have a note here Six fifty five a d where it was known as the dragon of cutdwalder which I apologize sincerely to any welsh listeners listening in and ah bemoaning my pronunciation. Um the king of gwyn. 07:25.24 Alex Um, that. 07:29.53 Ashleigh Airey Can. 07:44.82 archaeoteacup eth. Um, but yeah, so there was that's you know the sort of classic one in the u k but then indeed in h and chinese culture. It's always a symbol of imperial power. Um, and then yeah, there's there's all sorts of cool sculptures that have been found from the now what culture was it the hong hong shan culture I believe which is a neolithic culture. Um, where. They have very famous sort of sculptures of dragons and that's actually the earliest known 3 d representation of a dragon apparently was found dating to the hongshan culture and which is ah excavations in the city of shifing and in a mongolia that was sort of the main excavation point that apparently these things were found but yes, so so lots of ah. Interesting, interesting things and I like that you mentioned alex the the fossils I also had found. There was something when I was looking up why are indeed at dragons all over the place. Apparently there were some other interesting theories. 1 of them was that people just have an instinctive fear of reptiles. So. 08:36.53 Alex Yeah I've heard that one. 08:37.83 Ashleigh Airey This is fair, fair enough. 08:41.69 archaeoteacup Which yeah like that's I feel like someone has a bit of a snake phobia to be saying. Ah. 08:48.27 Alex I Mean it's something I've been thinking about because um, this has been going viral again online the the video of the Orangutan like the baby Orangutans being taught to fear snakes have you seen this. 08:59.63 archaeoteacup Wait What I haven't saved this video. No. 09:02.46 Ashleigh Airey Ah, Don was in this. 09:03.52 Alex There's this video that goes around like every so often and me my partner because we're very simple people obviously spent and any evening watching these videos. Um, there's like fort schools of like young orangutans who I'm I'm not sure what the actual context is I assume they must have been either reintroduced or something. Um. 09:19.51 archaeoteacup This is. 09:22.42 Alex And there's these people that go around and have fake snakes to like kind of ensure that they have that ah that instinct to be afraid of snakes so they'll they'll put the snake out and then there's these such cute videos of the you know the baby rightangs really like holding each other in fear and then a guy and then the guy. 09:27.61 archaeoteacup Um. 09:31.50 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 09:37.11 archaeoteacup Oh. 09:40.59 Alex Um, out he has a stick and then he shows them How to beat the the fake snake to death with the stick and then you see the orangutans picking out the stick and realizing Oh we we beat it to death. Ah, again to kind of build those instincts into them and you know I was like oh yeah I mean personally I Love Snakes I Think they're very cool and I always wanted to. 09:57.40 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, me too. 10:00.26 Alex Pet snake as a child but I get it. 10:03.49 Ashleigh Airey Wow. Didn't know they got to teach them that. 10:03.72 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, that's it's one of those things I Guess it's like you know teaching kids about fear of cars rolling them over and that kind of thing. It's sort of the the right? And yeah, yeah, yeah. 10:15.40 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 10:15.26 Alex Know when you pull me take the fake car out and then you take a stick. Can you beat the the car with a stick. Yeah yeah I mean that's kind of what we do in the Us I don't know if this is a. 10:21.34 Ashleigh Airey Um, yeah, you beat the car. 10:22.83 archaeoteacup You have the ketchup bottle sptting black on everywhere be like oh now. 10:28.87 Ashleigh Airey Ah. 10:34.10 Alex So this is an international thing or a very specific American thing but we we have we have this thing called shattered dreams that a lot of high schools do where I'm not joking they Um, there's a big full skill. Um. 10:42.25 archaeoteacup Um, sounds bad already. 10:42.44 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, like that name out. 10:49.58 Alex Acting out of a car crash and they always pick the most popular or loved student to fake die in the car crash and they have the the ah real ambulance come ah a real hearse come. 11:02.97 Ashleigh Airey Wow. 11:03.20 archaeoteacup Ah, of course. 11:03.85 Alex Ah, real fire Truckck It's like this whole thing they do to tell us to not you know like drink drive and things like that. But it's I Guess it's a very American thing to to do all this spectacle right? Okay, okay, it's not just us. 11:09.46 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 11:13.54 Ashleigh Airey Well no, actually we had that school as well. But we went. Yeah, no, no, but we it was like a specialized like place that we went and they showed you each like fear you can possibly have a essentially like he has a burnt down building. This is what happens when you put fireworks through a letterbox and. 11:15.47 archaeoteacup Um, well I was about to say that. 11:32.21 Ashleigh Airey And don't pull your arm out for the Subway because it's just going to get cut off and like things like that and they they'd show you each one and then they'd tell you these horrifying stories and you'd be like okay I'll never do I swear. So. 11:42.13 archaeoteacup Ah, for us I was one with like cars and you had to put your balloon. You had a balloon on like a weight and then you had to put that as far from the car like the closest point to the car that you thought you'd still be safe if you ran out in front of it basically and. 11:54.74 Alex Well. 11:58.59 archaeoteacup Then so we had to all do that and keep in mind we're all like 8 years old and like the woman came along and went to the first one and just stomped on it and it burst and she's like well this one's dead like it's like. 12:09.51 Ashleigh Airey 2 clothes. Ah good night. Yeah. 12:10.20 Alex So so you're saying that we we all are oregutangs and we are being taught with a fake snake and a stick like yeah. 12:13.60 archaeoteacup Yeah, not being taught to fear snakes. So actually this you know it stick to fear of reptile like it's probably you know it's not that much of an exaggeration. Maybe maybe maybe the fear of the dragon. You know that to these tales of dragons was supposed to instill a fear of. 12:23.13 Alex Yeah, no, it's it's there. 12:25.80 Ashleigh Airey Um, you know. 12:33.23 archaeoteacup I Don't know some something some sort of exaterated creatures. No different things and. 12:33.46 Ashleigh Airey Power. 12:33.66 Alex I Guess it depends you know dragons. Do you know, not they come in different forms. They mean different things to different people right? and. 12:42.59 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, well and because I find that interesting though indeed that there's got the different ones so you've got the sort of power symbol but is that also you know is that fear or is that respect or is it a mixture of the two I guess mixture. 12:43.40 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, that's true. Yeah. 12:50.88 Ashleigh Airey Dude is. 12:58.16 Alex Yeah I mean because dragons in China even now you know like I have a personal like family shrine like a lot of other like chinese ah diaspora do and I have a little dragon statue online. Um because it you know it is a powerful image. It's about you know, bravery and strength and stuff like that. 13:05.36 archaeoteacup The. 13:14.15 archaeoteacup Yeah. 13:16.24 Alex But then you know we did an episode on ah Medieval obesiaries where Dragons were almost always an allegory for the devil. So it's yeah, it's ah you know, really changes which I think Dragons I think that's why it's really interesting to like talk about dragons because it's. 13:22.43 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, they become quite witchy I think especially yeah. 13:23.95 archaeoteacup Right? um. 13:35.78 Alex Ah, way to kind of look at you know ideas that people have around the world. How that changes due to cultural context. But how that also changes across time as well because Jackets are cool now. Obviously. 13:46.73 Ashleigh Airey Um, Dragons are super cool Khalici in all lie isn't it really like. 13:47.12 archaeoteacup Um. 13:50.58 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, ah yeah I mean yeah yeah, a little tattoos everywhere with all the. 13:51.50 Alex Have you seen one haven't you seen one like spray painted on like the side of a van. Yeah yeah, I actually I just realized why we were recording this like I have a dragon tattoo. It's all my life. 13:55.70 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 14:02.76 archaeoteacup There you go the ultimate symbol of power. Yeah no and indeed Yeah, but it's definitely I Just also find it really fascinating like you say that they've really, they've developed a lot and they've developed over time but they've also there's been pretty similar things in nearly all parts of the world. They have. 14:03.95 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, and you go yeah. 14:06.88 Alex I Have a Chinese dragon tattooed on me. 14:22.23 archaeoteacup Something to do with like a serpent or a dragon or a worm or something like that. So it's ah just yeah, universal wriggly scaly with but and I so I hate to had to cut this discussion short. But I thought that. 14:25.35 Alex Something wriggly and tube like. 14:27.13 Ashleigh Airey Um, this is an scaly thing. 14:38.29 archaeoteacup Over there was just like a flock of crow spies from dunland but actually I think it is a black rain cloud. So maybe we should pack up this picnic and take cover before we get drenched so we need to cut this episode short of and my trial but don't worry we will be continuing next episode with part 2 with our special guest. Alex. In the meantime if there's any suggestions people have for an episode that they've gotten from a fantasy book. Maybe there's an archaeological concept. You don't quite understand that maybe we can explain through fantasy or perhaps there's something in a book that you want to find out about as an archaeologist just get in contact with us via email or social media or contact info as well as some of the references to the points we've made today can be found in the show. It's.