00:00.00 Ashleigh Airey Hello and welcome back. You're listening to episode 7 of and my trow where we look at the fantastic side of archeology and the archaeological side of fantasy I'm ash and this is the second part of our discussion with genovviva demova chatting about all things and an arch your botany. 00:07.91 archaeoteacup And I'm tilly. 00:18.34 Ashleigh Airey Let's just remind ourselves of where we were before we were rudely interrupted by that scary nus Google so we've met tree beard. We've accidentally sampled his leg. Um, we've been commissioned by the hubble bush historical society who also write our newsletters to date. 00:33.19 Gen So. 00:35.47 Ashleigh Airey And identify not only the fallen but the living endts that marched on Eisen god were taking the hobbit to eyes and god so now Jen we know a little bit more about ent and let's start to think about how we can tackle this problem over paint. So first of all. 00:42.80 archaeoteacup Um, to others to go to a sorry. Yeah I. 00:54.93 Ashleigh Airey Do you think this archaeological concept or any archaeological concept can be applied to fantasy. 01:00.11 Gen And I think they absolutely can't because obviously the main purpose of archaeology is the studying of coachers and I feel like it goes for real cultures or made up coaches. 01:12.41 Ashleigh Airey That's so true. Yeah I I heard this thing recently on and and a lecture I was in that said that archeology is part it straddles and reality and myth and I I quite like that because we don't know everything and but we do know bits of it. 01:23.77 Gen Ah. 01:27.22 Gen Yeah. 01:29.51 Ashleigh Airey And so yeah, the fact that we can apply to all different types of cultures and look at the study and activity of people and plants everything sentient beans, golums everything. Um, it's fantastic. It's interesting and it's engaging. 01:44.32 Gen Yeah, absolutely and I think like yeah reference building narratives. Absolutely and yeah. 01:46.31 archaeoteacup Um, and I mean like you said in our very first episode. It's storytelling. Sorry. 01:49.58 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, it is It is storytelling. It is her. Yeah I mean it's an interpretation isn't it. You're interpreted in that site and you're saying oh yes, somebody once had a fire here and somebody once ate a poisoned piece of cereal. Oh. 02:05.10 archaeoteacup Ah, Cockle Cockle Cop What was it cook call on cockle. 02:06.44 Gen Current Coco currentkaco. 02:08.11 Ashleigh Airey Was it corn cockle someone ate ah a poison piece of corn cockle once upon a dime and went a bit mad. Um and had a horrible death. Oh that's gonna haunt me Jen That's going to haunt me. 02:16.18 archaeoteacup O me. 02:19.75 Gen Ah, he didn't die. He was absolutely fine I'd suspect I mean we didn't find any evidence he died he pooped it out and I'm hoping went along his merry way. 02:26.57 archaeoteacup Are. 02:26.70 Ashleigh Airey Oh god right? I think we died. Oh so glad then he just proved that and you you thousands or hundreds of years later. It's in your desk. So how do you think we. 02:38.93 archaeoteacup Um, if no one knows what we're talking about listen to the last episode by the way. Ah out of context this sounds really weird. 02:45.88 Gen Oh God I've been having so much fun. Well my colleagues might disagree but I'd be having a lot of fun with my little assemblage of Medieval Pop I have been keeping it on my desk and reminding people bring a lunch bake. Oh by the way my poops here and then I had to go and compare it to the. 02:47.70 Ashleigh Airey Ah, yeah. 03:04.52 Gen Color chart the master chart. So obviously I announced Love I'm going to compare my poop to the Monu Chart I Thought that was very funny. Nobody was dead. So yeah, oh it's him this. 03:06.34 Ashleigh Airey Um, behalf. 03:13.40 archaeoteacup What's say a a Monthel chart for the sake of. 03:19.50 Gen Color chart that we use usually to describe the color of archeological context like the soil color it Oh really. 03:23.12 archaeoteacup I Believe I've seen one for tea they say D Good T Bad T You know if it's too weak or something. It's a certain color and then it gets umward strong. Okay. 03:24.45 Ashleigh Airey And what do you. 03:33.58 Gen Yeah, it's It's the same concept here. Good deposit bad deposit. Yeah no, you can use brow but you need good add all sorts of yeah descriptions. But. 03:37.53 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, and you can't use Brown Brown or anything Brown the word brown. You cannot use so you you yeah you need like brown's Orange Sandy selt yeah 03:49.32 archaeoteacup Um, so. 03:52.75 Gen Yeah, light dark that sort of thing medium. 03:56.76 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, you need that Otherwise everything's brown. 04:00.11 archaeoteacup And does that mean that you have to so speaking as someone who hasn't had that much experience with X Gra archaeology. Do you know all of the colors in your heads as you're digging or do you have to have the Mu chart there to refer to. 04:15.13 Ashleigh Airey Gen Now let you answer that. 04:16.93 Gen Um, normally yeah on the in the field we normally just describe it as we see it like you would use 3 descriptions like light yellowish brown sort of thing. The muscle chart comes in later if you need to be really really specific about exactly what shade you're looking at. 04:28.75 Ashleigh Airey Um. 04:30.00 archaeoteacup Okay, what. 04:32.66 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, like whenever I've filled out context sheets. It's usually just whatever you see in the ground you write down. Yeah yeah, exactly. 04:37.42 Gen Yeah, it's mostly our It's mostly our so specialized that needs that precise color descriptions. 04:43.97 archaeoteacup Because that must be so hard I mean how how biased must that be though because I'm just thinking. It's such a you know how could we be sure that everyone sees color the same like shortly maybe 1 person right? Yeah there you go. 04:54.40 Gen Well, that just goes back to its own interpretation and building narratives here but photography. 05:01.10 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, and that's why you have photography as well on site too. You know you you're taking. Yeah yeah, it can. But then you've also got you've got Well, you've got the context sheet then you've got photography then you've got the sample as well. Um, and then you can do a little drawing. 05:06.95 archaeoteacup Photography can. Also I mean the amount of yeah. Write a 5. 05:14.19 Gen Yep. Yeah, yeah. 05:18.68 Ashleigh Airey Which is not colored but still um and you'd probably say what your inclusions are as well. So if you had a lot of charcoal. You'd say you know mid inclusions of charcoal like you know, um, or something on that. So it's it's just it's just the way It's always be. 05:26.64 Gen Um. 05:34.92 archaeoteacup Um, and and does this still just because it's always been that way and um, does do it and when you're looking at the soil it does it have to be like dried out or do you look at it when it's wet like when it's freshly dug. 05:47.94 Gen That's actually a very good question and I don't think it's something that we've kind of agreed to like look at the specific state of it. Normally it's weight when you have just dig it out. Yeah, no absolutely. That's. 05:51.49 Ashleigh Airey And then. 05:53.95 archaeoteacup Um I. 06:00.26 archaeoteacup Um, because surely then the color changes too when it dries. 06:03.35 Ashleigh Airey Yep. 06:04.53 Gen That's a good point and it does change and sometimes the car that described in the field and then when I come to work that in the lab. It's completely different just because of things like that. 06:10.56 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, ah, anyway, sorry I don't mean to spatter in the way genuinely interested. Ah. 06:18.50 Ashleigh Airey No, it's a fascinating it makes it. It makes sense though because that's where you find the stuff I mean that's where all the samples for anything come from so and what we used to do on site and general attest this we used to have a thing we called the scocha. Um. 06:31.89 Gen Oh yeah. 06:35.14 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, and you fill it up with water and you literally if it's too hot and it's dried out you just scoosh water all over it and go oh there you go and then you'd record it at that point. Um, when it's wet. Yeah, otherwise it's just dusty. You can't really see anything. There would be days. We'd go around scooshing. 06:46.49 archaeoteacup Um, oh yeah. 06:54.83 Gen But yeah. 06:54.88 Ashleigh Airey Features yeah, it is a very technical term. Yes, it is anyone in Scotland if you say get the scoo shirt. They'll know exactly what you mean. 06:57.93 archaeoteacup Scooshing is that the technical term is that what was written in the site report. 07:02.80 Gen Um. 07:09.72 Gen Um. 07:09.86 archaeoteacup Ah, fair enough. That's alright, yes. 07:11.80 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, so that's a fantastic discussion and we'll bring it back to archeology and fantasy. Um, do you think we can use archeology actual archeology within the fantasy context. 07:22.93 Gen I Don't see why we wouldn't be able to I feel like archeology is a broad enough discipline and I think we can use exactly the same methods that we use for Rio coachers that we could use the same ones for fancy coachs. 07:39.23 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, exactly Telly do you have any examples of stuff like that. 07:45.50 archaeoteacup Well I I do actually I can't remember if I've already talked about this in an an earlier episode I think I did but I'll mention it quickly again. Um that um, one of my professors at university used to give an annual lecture on the archeology of middle earth but it was really it. It was as if. You know middle earth was an actual place and it's like oh well, what kind of once? do we do? So my favorite rem memory was um that she mentioned a lot of things and I can't quite remember all the details. But 1 thing I can really remember was she talked about um how listening to folklore folklore seems to be a theme in these episodes which Jen um listening to folklore and sort of more ethnographic accounts. 08:02.83 Gen Um. 08:20.64 archaeoteacup Ah, hearing the histories hearing the songs can sometimes be very important and that can give you context to the culture and and the background and historic references. Um, and then she played a clip of the dwarf singing the misty mountains ah song in the hobbit film which was just amazing and everyone that was going. Oh my God um. 08:36.90 Ashleigh Airey Um. 08:39.96 Gen Um. 08:40.60 archaeoteacup We were all complete. That's um, yes so I quite like that that idea but I'm curious. What for you too. What would if you could be an archaeologist in any um, fantasy world I think Ash, you might have already answered this one because I think I also answer ask this in the first episode. Um, but maybe Jen if you could be in. Archaeologist in any fantasy world which one would it be. 08:59.72 Gen Oh that's really hard. Um I don't repeat myself so I'm not going to go this world even though I think you can find some fascinating things there. Um I I might go with the witcher actually because I I feel like I'm quite much about slavic folklore. So I feel like I'll be quite. 09:10.88 archaeoteacup Um. 09:18.66 Gen Like able to interpret all the strange things that I find I'll be able to go oh this must be because it was haunted by ah Kikimora or whatever so I feel but quite prepared to be an archaeologist in the winteritcher world. Did it well team again. We've worked together before. 09:27.49 archaeoteacup Um, didn't isn't that what you said ash. 09:28.33 Ashleigh Airey I could see it. Yeah I did Yeah, do you love it'd be great. Yeah, no completely I think I can totally see you as like a cool archeologist sorcerer like. 09:36.36 Gen We can work together again. 09:43.44 archaeoteacup Da. 09:46.13 Gen I was just going to say I feel like big an archeologist is this kind of a safe option in the winterer world because you don't have fight. So yeah and just um. 09:46.16 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, flowing locks. 09:51.24 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, we'd be a side Quest wouldn't we as like help the killed just or a come from matrool on the battlefield Can you help know? That's exactly what we'd be. Yeah. 10:02.73 archaeoteacup I Mean let's be honest, though if they introduce that into like the witcher games and everything there is a big audience for that in the archeological community I'm pretty sure every archeologist in the world will be like yes I'm going to play this? yeah. 10:10.18 Ashleigh Airey Oh definitely I needed I need it? Yeah no exactly and I've got another example, there is them archeology of skyrum as well people dive into games as like Archeo gaming and things. 10:12.54 Gen Um. 10:24.44 archaeoteacup Um, ah hello. 10:27.71 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 10:28.77 Ashleigh Airey Where you can go in and see and like immerse yourself in the world. But you know it's through the game instead of a book or a fantasy scenario or real scenario. Sorry um that you know you can do so that that's always really fascinating as well. How people can use gaming. 10:40.40 Gen Um. 10:46.20 archaeoteacup Busy. 10:46.70 Ashleigh Airey And stuff like Assassins creed they use it quite often in order to reconstruct certain time periods and they work with archaeologists all the time in order to get that that city or that landscape correct. 10:53.21 archaeoteacup Um, back. 10:59.82 Gen I Don't know that that's really interesting. 11:02.12 archaeoteacup There's There's a really interesting project I'm not sure if it's still ongoing. Um, but it was ongoing for a while um with one of my colleagues at Leden University was actually got a postdoc a funded postdoc position. Um, working for a project called. 11:11.24 Gen Are. 11:18.71 archaeoteacup Value. Um, and it looked at gaming archaeo gaming Basically um and it also looked at like actual like archaeological board games and sort of as in historical games. You know, um so evidence of games from the past but it also looked at gaming as in video games and and that kind of thing. But from the archeological perspective and they have this or they had I think they might have kept it going as sort of a fun thing. They would stream the games and have someone playing the game but also commenting on the archeology of it. 11:45.57 Ashleigh Airey Yes I think I hang on 2 seconds I don't know if I'm recording properly here my little purse. My little line isn't moving at all. Okay, okay, thanks I was like shit. 11:49.20 Gen Talk. 11:53.17 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, no, it's okay, it's still going. It's going on mine. Yeah yeah, sometimes no sometimes it does that and sometimes one goes slow and the other goes really fast or something and it looks really weird, but it does work. 11:57.18 Gen Yeah, pier. 12:09.14 Ashleigh Airey Okay, that's fine. Okay sorry brother. Let's we'll just cut that bit and I'll see and yeah I actually think I watched one of those streams it was far Cry Primal Um, which was set in the paleolithic. 12:10.39 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, no rest. Yeah. 12:19.66 archaeoteacup Yeah, move. Ah. 12:24.11 Ashleigh Airey In Europe very beginning the paleothic and they were looking at what was like accurate. What was not like sometimes they had some animals that definitely weren't accurate. Um, and then they had like but it was interesting to see that their culture. 12:33.44 archaeoteacup Um, visit them. 12:37.16 Ashleigh Airey And how they'd sort of reconstructed that and what kind of archaeological like artifacts had had popped in and stuff and how much they'd actually gone in depth with it. Um, and they were kind of walking around. Not really playing the game just sort of walking around the landscape like oh yeah, no, that's possible or no, That's what is the what is that Why is that this tiger here like. You know stuff like that. So it was. It's quite fascinating that you can actually do that with a completely fictional world. 12:57.20 archaeoteacup Um. 12:59.90 Gen Um. 13:02.25 archaeoteacup Well and things like D and D I'm pretty sure like they could include you know what is it barred Barbarian if they included archaeologists like they'd have a lot to do I think you know indeed because so much of it is based on history and you know learning the law and all of that kind of. 13:14.29 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 13:22.27 archaeoteacup Ah. 13:22.62 Ashleigh Airey If you could put me in Boulder's gate 3 as an archeologist I'd a hundred percent be there I'd be like high hysterrian how you do? Ah yeah. 13:33.31 archaeoteacup Um, are you there to work Ashe. But. 13:36.31 Ashleigh Airey Obviously he's a vampire he has historical knowledge like I could use that right? Well yes yes, but I would work some of the time anyway and. 13:36.73 Gen Um. 13:43.43 archaeoteacup Ah. 13:54.15 Ashleigh Airey So we've sort of come to the conclusion that yes you can use fantasy elements and in archaeology and you can use archaeology and fantasy. Um, but how do you think in general it can help archaeological discussions to look at Fantasy Worlds and and build upon that. 14:07.65 Gen Are. 14:11.40 archaeoteacup Okay I was about to say I have so much to say about this but I don't want to the thing well because I mean I'm as as you probably are aware a big promoter of trying to make archeological kind of discussions and interpretations and knowledge in general very accessible and I think that one of the easiest ways to do that is. 14:11.46 Ashleigh Airey Tilly I'll go for you go? ah. 14:17.37 Gen Um. 14:30.88 archaeoteacup Well, that's why we started this podcast right? like it's because I think one of the easiest ways to do that is to to kind of demonstrate things through things that people are already very familiar with and there was yeah, a really interesting discussion that I saw somewhere about how you learn. 14:31.76 Ashleigh Airey Have. 14:47.75 archaeoteacup Even if you're sort of a big professor you know or something quite a lot of the very very very base knowledge that you've learned probably comes from some fictional book that you read when you eat little you know about the Romans or something like that and so your kind of base understanding of of history and of the past and of those kind of things are. 15:00.43 Gen Um. 15:06.54 archaeoteacup Quite ingrained in what you have learned and what you have read growing up and I think that then fantasy. So I mean we've talked about it right? So and there's so many aspects of archeology that you can talk about with fantasy and I think that if you do it in a fantastical sense also similar to what Jen said last episode about. The amazing thing of Terry Pratchett's disworld see how I'm managing to rope that back into this episode as well. Um, that um, he is able to talk about really big world issues. Um through a fantasy story and I mean one of my favorite things about this world is that technically if you took the fantasy out. It would still be an amazing story. 15:25.27 Gen 2 15:41.27 archaeoteacup And I know that not all fantasy is like that but still I think that that's really that that can also be done with archaeological discussions. You can use kind of fantastical examples to provide I Guess a more nuanced discussion of yeah issues in archaeology issues in the world issues that are something to do with our past Anyway, Yes, that's. 15:41.62 Gen Um. 15:58.61 Ashleigh Airey Yeah I think that I completely agree with you tilly I think we should raise a toast actually to the future of Archeological fantasy. Oh actually we're out of drinks hang on. 15:59.55 archaeoteacup What I think. 16:06.31 Gen Um, yeah. 16:09.50 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, ah is it my round again. Okay right? I'll be back in a minute. 16:14.42 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, you need to go get it I'm not doing it. Okay, right? Give us a minute and we'll just refill our tankards.