00:02.92 archaeoteacup Sorry okay and welcome back everyone that was a very delicious afternoon tea. So let's go back to this scenario and seeing then as Alex you're a very experienced hand then it's using your archeological experience to investigate fantasy concepts. How would you deal with this particular scenario based on your experience. 00:26.25 Alex So I think first of all I would tell someone else not makes I don't do this stuff to look into the stratigraphy of the site specifically like where burning falls into the overall timeline of this site I don't know anything about stratigraphy I don't understand it what's up. 00:42.62 Ashleigh Airey Oh I love a bit of a Harris marix. Oh yeah. 00:45.39 Alex What's a Harris Matrix I don't know ooh you are cursed. You are a cursed individual. 00:51.43 archaeoteacup Well maybe then Ashley just quickly seeing as you're an experienced field archard with at least stratigraphy can you just give a very quick definition of stratigraphy. 00:54.20 Ashleigh Airey Um, no. 01:03.31 Ashleigh Airey I'm actually just going to Google it properly because otherwise I'll waffle. Yes, so straography is actually geological concept and but over time essentially sediment soil and debris just accumulates and it just. 01:05.19 archaeoteacup But I'll just quickly pause. Oh yeah. 01:19.54 Ashleigh Airey Puts layer and layer on top of each other and and these are referred to as Stratigraphy. So when you cut into a section of say um, a trench, you'll see the layers of soil in the different bands and that gives you different time periods. Really the lowest ones usually the latter it depends if there's cuts and things inside of it as Well. Um, and you know human activity. But yeah, it's kind of a superposition of rock and sediment. 01:43.91 archaeoteacup So basically what you're saying Alex we should be able to see if the death of the the dragon was before or after the settlement got burnt or during or something like that. 01:55.38 Alex Yeah, because you know the ash would accumulate for something. 01:58.85 archaeoteacup Yeah. 02:01.78 Ashleigh Airey There's actually a fun time when you do carbon dating right? There's a great example of this and I learned to uni that during a fire. It was a bronze age fire. There was a roundhouse and the roundhouse fell on top of a cow and killed the cow during the fire. So. 02:15.39 archaeoteacup Ah, oh. 02:18.43 Ashleigh Airey You had the layers of fire. Obviously the ash and then you had the cow and then you had the debris of the house on top and that's traificy. That's your 3 layers. Um, and obviously you'd have like you know your subsoil and stuff as well and but the cow was able to give them an exact date because a time of death essentially would give you you know when your carbon stops. 02:31.50 Alex Oh wow. 02:32.45 archaeoteacup I yeah. 02:36.96 Ashleigh Airey And your half life begins that's carbon ah carbon dating. Um and so it gives them an exact time period of when that house burnt down. Yes, good old cow. Yeah. 02:46.79 archaeoteacup That's very convenient ah to convenient. Yes, who put that cow there and then started the fire. Yeah okay, personal. 02:47.62 Alex Too convenient. 02:54.55 Alex So archeologist is going to need this? Yeah so that was weirdly. The first thing I thought of with this situation and then of course with burning you could also do micro analysis of like any burnt organic remains so Pat Shipman and 02:56.15 Ashleigh Airey Just wanted to remember I suppose. 03:04.23 archaeoteacup Yeah, no, but. 03:13.19 Alex Rebecca Nichols and have done a lot of work particularly on burnt animal remains and how if you look at the morphology of it. You can kind of understand like the temperature of burning how the bones were burnt so obviously for other sites. It's a little bit more of like you know. It could be cooking. It could be accidentally burnt because it's like you know, just kind of got really close to the fire. Whatever I mean at this point we kind of know probably what did the fire but you never know we could be. We might want to know what the temperature of the the flame was maybe that's something to do with the biology of. 03:46.57 archaeoteacup Maybe or maybe someone set up this dragon to make it look like they had been burning down the villages. But actually if you look at the flame strength or something It couldn't have been a dragon fight because I assume Dragon fire is quite potent. 03:47.51 Alex Dragons I don't know. 03:59.80 Alex Yeah I mean you know. 03:59.41 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, and you'd think a dragon would wouldn't burn in a fire. 04:06.37 Alex Yeah. 04:08.46 archaeoteacup I'm trying to remember from our scenario whether the dragon I don't think the dragon was burnt. 04:11.00 Ashleigh Airey I Thought it was a bit charred so does me we could neck. Yeah, we but. 04:14.00 Alex We could check though we could do because the other thing I would say is that if you looked at the burial. Obviously the burial itself you have your grave goods if they exist looking at whether or not it's a complete body. 04:16.61 archaeoteacup Ah, yes, there we go. 04:30.70 Alex Because it it could be that it's not a burial. It's a deposit I don't know how dragons are are considered in this scenario as far as whether they're you know, considered Ascend beings or you know something else. Um, it could have been a natural deposit or whatever. Um. 04:32.47 Ashleigh Airey Exactly. 04:34.25 archaeoteacup Um, have. 04:47.94 archaeoteacup Um. 04:48.48 Alex And tafenomic consideration as well and that would include burning. 04:53.63 archaeoteacup Um, and you mentioned like yeah deposit versus burial. So are there a lot of examples of burials of animals that have been yeah included with grave goods and then that kind of thing. 05:02.93 Alex I Mean that's why that's part of kind of how we've been looking at domestication is you get these particularly like in the early prehistoric you get these like canine basically dog burials that. 05:07.45 archaeoteacup Better. 05:17.19 Alex Because of the way that they're buried because they mimic similar burial rights to humans that adds to the evidence of you know this kind of close companionship that we were having with dogs at the time and is added to the because I swear like every two years we get a new date for dog domestication like I wrote something. 05:25.97 archaeoteacup Oh. 05:35.85 Ashleigh Airey Um. 05:38.67 Alex Ah, for eons the Youtube series about dog domestication I think that was a couple years ago and I think it's already out of date as far as like dates which is great. It's amazing that we keep expanding how we understand domestication. But it's really annoying when you're publishing on it. 05:42.69 archaeoteacup So. 05:46.13 Ashleigh Airey Um. 05:51.73 archaeoteacup Yeah, especially if the review plerate process takes like a year or 2 and then suddenly you're like ah hang on. Let me redo this. 05:57.83 Ashleigh Airey I'll wait a second. But. 05:58.68 Alex You're 5000 years behind folks like it's plays amazing because I think I for now I can't remember off top my head but it's couple we're looking at you know I think maybe between twenty thousand and thirty thousand years ago for domestic dog domestic. It's. 06:13.92 archaeoteacup Wow so far back? Yeah, ah. 06:16.14 Alex Really long like it's a really long time. We've been domesticating dogs. Um, but yeah, that's the kind of thing where differentiating between ah you know a burial or kind of just like a natural deposition is really important because it tells you a very different story. 06:30.82 archaeoteacup Um. 06:32.15 Alex I Think that's where it kind of fits in with what we've been talking about with dragons is that culturally they have very different meanings and very in very different roles in society and culture. So it could be very different. 06:39.96 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 06:41.75 Ashleigh Airey And stratographically you'd have a grave cut if it was an actual burial if it's a deposit you don't you have just sediment going over the top of it quite naturally and yeah, it were just sort of filled up and. 06:53.91 archaeoteacup Right? because they wouldn't have dug the hole it would have just been laying there. 07:00.74 Ashleigh Airey Kind of drifted a lot of the time you get um or you get kind of get wash downhills and things like that. So you like a sheep would have died and if's fallen down a hill or something then you kind of get that sediment building up over time and but then if you actually have ah an intentional burial. 07:18.78 Ashleigh Airey Then you're going to have a grieve cut. 07:18.92 Alex It. 07:19.86 archaeoteacup There you go? Okay so we can see it in the context of the site we can see in the context of how it well we don't necessarily know how it died is it is it possible to tell how it died from from just looking at a burial or is that something a bit more interpretive. 07:36.73 Alex You'd have to look at the actual body itself whether or not has pathology how we determine Dragon Pathology is a completely different conversation I Guess um because you know it could be.. It could be very obvious. It could not be I mean. If. It's a very old. You know if you age it is at an age where they would typically probably die of old age you know, Um, if if it's domesticated are we calling it like I don't What's the mortality profile. You know, um. 08:05.86 archaeoteacup Anything. 08:08.80 Alex So there's a lot of different things you could do with it and I think what where we really need to get at is where it falls on the the sentient or not ah scale. What is something me and Simona my co-host on archae animals talk about a lot when we talk about these fantasy things and science fiction things of like you know. 08:16.99 archaeoteacup Right. 08:28.50 Alex It's weird to say like are we talking about Zoo Archeology in this case, where do we draw the line with some of these species fictional species. 08:36.73 archaeoteacup Which that's a really interesting point actually because indeed the it was a dragon who came and told us about this site. So then I assume where we're so indeed would it be have We called the wrong person. Do we not need a zoo archeologist. We need a but then is a. 08:38.91 Ashleigh Airey Are. 08:42.23 Alex Yes. 08:53.72 archaeoteacup Handle How does that How how oh that's tricky theological ground I would say. 08:57.73 Alex We We ended up talking about this in a recent I guess well at the time of this recording a recent episode Ah, where for me I feel like maybe we think about it as Xer archeology is just non-human species point blank like that's it. 09:01.72 archaeoteacup This is. 09:12.80 archaeoteacup Um, the first. 09:15.66 Alex Um, and then you know if there are other species sentient species out there doing archeology then they have their own word for it potentially and then we work it out when we start collaborating I guess. 09:22.63 archaeoteacup So so it's just like so we had an episode with David e and Howe looking at werewolves and our conclusion was that we need a werewolf archaeologist to look at the werewolves because they will know about the thing. So it's the same right in this one. 09:23.70 Ashleigh Airey Broad. 09:32.63 Alex Yeah, yeah I Guess yeah like maybe it's like zoo archeology is speaking about non you species so like anything that's not me That's not a human. 09:37.85 archaeoteacup We need. We need a dragon archaeologist I guess. 09:48.45 archaeoteacup Okay, could be. 09:51.99 Alex But then it's like maybe are there Zo archeologists who have a speciality in Dragons I don't know we like had we like have derailed many a conversation talking about this because I suddenly find it really like an actual like ethical question even though it doesn't matter in our real lives like no this isn't. 10:07.95 Ashleigh Airey What do you mean? Dragons are real both. 10:11.41 Alex Very pressing Oh sorry. Yes, they are real but in like a different world where it's not real. It's not a pressing moral question out of the many other moral and ethical questions regarding archeology like far low on the list for sure. 10:11.84 archaeoteacup Dragons are real. Yes. 10:23.44 archaeoteacup I suppose it is it is low but but it is still an interesting point because maybe in 100 years archeologists will be looking back at us and being like oh my gosh. How could they have differentiated between you know, human. And animal or like you know why would why were they having osteologists and then zooeologist for every other animal species. That's so you know inethical just like I guess similarly to how you know the analysis of different but in yeah, very brackets quotes whatever races or whatever was done in. Great antiquarian anthropological studies which now we look back at and think that what what like why would they do something like that maybe something similar will be done in 100 years what we're doing. 11:08.43 Alex I Mean that's something that I think about and try to expand more about is like a more holistic approach to ah osteology that isn't so anthropocentric even though obviously we're kind of inherent to that because we are humans. Um. 11:23.87 archaeoteacup Ah, hit. 11:24.40 Ashleigh Airey Fun. Um. 11:24.81 Alex So it's a difficult question that I constantly am rattling in my brain. Even though again I know it's like not as important as some of the other kind of ethical questions that are going on right now. But I think it's interesting. You know I think it's an interesting thing to think through. 11:37.50 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 11:40.17 Alex And particular and you know but people like there's Zooarel just doing stuff like social zoo archeology. Um, which is kind of like that approach of trying to remove the focus so much on humans as like the instigator and more about animal instigated relations and interactions. 11:57.56 archaeoteacup Interesting. 11:58.11 Alex So yeah. 12:00.32 Ashleigh Airey Um, yeah, we talked about that a little bit last time didn't we with the werewolve stuff. How how we could. How can we as humans with an anthropocentric view truly represent animals in the archaeological record. It's It's really difficult to because we don't even see the same Way. We don't experience the world in the same way. So yeah, it's a very very interesting question. 12:23.39 archaeoteacup Well,, especially if you have a dragon burial like we do here So very relevant I would say and it's particular species so we can find out So Hopefully maybe we would have to to enlist the help of a dragon Historian then to assist us with the kind of dragon law and how burial practices might be. Maintained in that sort of respect. We can see it in terms of the site context is there anything else that we can learn using I'm going to keep saying zoo archaeological but let's say osteological law or anything um methods by looking At. For example, the burial itself. 13:00.18 Alex Yeah I mean it would depend on I Guess also learning a bit about burial culture and but burial rights in that region as far as you know are we looking at a dragon cultural. Burial Is it a different type of burial would that tell us who buried the dragon if it wasn't in another dragon was it someone else. What could that mean in that respect as well. If It's someone else burying them and using a different type of burial right? I mean this is kind of why I like archeology like how it you know, especially like. Osteologies or archaeology. Whatever you want to call it because it's connected to so many different things like I said like the environment you know, Human ah non-human relations Symbolism culture to society. Ah you start unpicking it and you can really Unravel and you start touching on so many other elements. That aren't necessarily just the site you're working on which I find really Interesting. Um. 13:57.91 archaeoteacup Yeah, no I like that indeed and I like that you've ah touched on some of the more theoretical sides and the kind of ethical sides of it as well. I think that that's a really good point to make in terms of I Guess any any archeological method. It's not just the method itself. It's also the the contextual like like the theoretical context. 14:14.89 Alex I will do anything to not think about the practical stuff of archaeology to be completely honest, but also yeah I mean realistically like that's the stuff I am interested in is the ethical and kind of theoretical aspects of archeology as someone who doesn't like to go outside. 14:16.88 archaeoteacup Yeah. 14:33.33 archaeoteacup Fair enough I mean I am the same I must say I like being in a lab and looking at the objects under the microscope. Well this is perfect. 14:33.37 Alex Or get dirty inside touch dirt don't like it. Yeah, this is. 14:42.91 Ashleigh Airey I Feel like I'm singled out here. Yeah I think I need more than just me to do a dragon burial I'd feel like what do I do my god. 14:47.39 archaeoteacup We have the perfect team here. Ash you can go out in the rain in the mud and dig the Cyrus. No. No, you're fine, fine. So so we may need to indeed enlist a couple more people it sounds like to help with all these different facets of the burial because it. It's not something that simple. It's not something that's just 1 person can look at so that's something to look forward to in the future but I would say that this has been a very successful initial discussion of ah of the next path that we can take so ah yeah I think that that. 15:16.82 Alex Are. 15:22.42 archaeoteacup Is about it for then this episode of at my trial. Thank you so much Alex ah for helping us out with this particular problem. It was. You know we went. We went back and forth. But I feel like we did get somewhere um in the end so it was really great to have you join us. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us today. 15:35.10 Alex Yeah, like for having me. 15:38.29 archaeoteacup And as always if there's any suggestions that people have for an episode. Maybe you've read a fantasy book have an archeological concept. You don't understand. There's something that you want to investigate archaeologically like we've done today. Do get in contact with us via email or social media. All of the contact info for us and Alex as well as links to the archeo animals podcasts and other references that we've made and further reading for the show the points that we've discussed in the show today can be found in the show notes. 16:08.60 Ashleigh Airey Tilly I think that old woman is staring at me. 16:10.14 archaeoteacup Which album oh wait, she's holding out something is that her laundry. 16:15.29 Ashleigh Airey I Hate washing.