00:00.00 archaeoteacup Hello you're listening to episode 10 We're into double figures. This is so exciting of and my trial where we look at the fantastic side of archeology and the archeological side of fantasy I'm tilly. 00:10.91 Ashleigh Airey And I'm ash. 00:14.20 archaeoteacup And this is the second part of our discussion with Alex Fitzpatrick who I heard tittering in the background because she's now on five plus years of her podcast chatting all about dragons are you into 4 digits now Alex or is it. It still 3 00:22.16 Alex Um. 00:25.53 Alex Low Wake God I don't want to think about it. 00:34.40 archaeoteacup Ah, well, we'll get back to our thing we're chatting all about dragons. So let's just remind ourselves a little bit of where we were before we had to ah take shelter. So a dragon had come to our offices. And said that we needed to investigate this site There were lots of burnt areas of the site some settlement structures that have been burnt down but there was also a burial of a dragon. The historic record said that the dragon had been kind of yeah hunting the humans I suppose or yeah. Being being mean I guess being the typical big old mean dragon. Um, and she wanted us to find out the real story behind it. So um, before we get sort of too much into the zoo archaeological zone of it. We were chatting a bit already about how the kind of mythology developed. But um, of course dragons are also a very big feature of fantasy books. So in the. In the fantasy world shall we say rather than the real world where there of course definitely a thing so I was just curious if either of you had read any books that particular feature dragons and and what your favorite one was I know that my I've read quite a few I think Aragon was was one of the one that stands out. 01:36.32 Ashleigh Airey Yeah. 01:39.43 archaeoteacup But I think my favorite one was the um song of no not the song of by ah tears fire tears or something oh gosh I'm gonna have to find I'm going to have to do a bit of background research while you guys are chatting and find it out by Cornelia Funk which is about little clay dragons who then turn into real dragons at night and so cute. 01:52.26 Alex Oh. 01:58.50 Ashleigh Airey I'm sorry someone's at my door I'm sorry so sorry. 02:00.27 archaeoteacup Ah I'll pause. So what about you 2 What? what favorite dragon related fantasy have you have you read? Maybe Alex you can go first. 02:11.19 Alex Well I mean as far as like actual books I mentioned in the last episode that the King Killer Chronicles is one of my favorite fantasy books. They they do a really interesting thing again. It's very like I don't want to say smart. It's. 02:19.40 archaeoteacup Ah, this is. 02:30.93 Alex Very silly thing to say about anything but it's attack a lot of like tropes in an interesting way. So one of them is being dragons where in their lore of the series. They have a creature called dragcus. 02:33.12 archaeoteacup Me. 02:46.80 Alex Which are these like really large like herrivore reptiles that eat trees but they do breathe fire and then that's like oh that's how the myth of Dragons happen because people found this actual animal. So I always found that really interesting that it's like kind of meta in that it like tackles the dragon myth within a fantasary. 02:49.28 archaeoteacup Oh. 03:00.98 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, oh. 03:05.40 Alex Um, although if we just talking about like a real dragon and or real dragon that like I liked as a kid. Um, this really speaks to the kind of nerd I was as a child so I used to read a lot of like books about mythology as a kid. 03:16.73 archaeoteacup I mean didn't we all I definitely did. 03:21.20 Ashleigh Airey Um, you certainly did tell he. 03:23.14 Alex So so like my dad obviously trying to get me engrossed in my Norwegian ah Heritage got me a lot of Norse Mythology books and I had one that was a picture book that had the story of fafnir in it So fafnir was this like greedy guy. 03:34.50 Ashleigh Airey And. 03:34.73 archaeoteacup Oh don't know that 1 03:41.28 Alex Who kills his father and he like steals a bunch of treasure from a dwarf and he gets so greedy that he either becomes a dragon or a worm depending on the translation or like version of the story. Um, and eventually he's killed by the folk hero sugard. Who cooks faffir's heart for his brother Regan to eat and then Sigurd like he's like cooking it and he like burns himself and he's like ah oh gosh he like puts his finger in his mouth to like cool it down and he like gets some of the blood in it and that blood of course obviously logically gives him the ability to speak to birds now. 04:10.31 archaeoteacup Um. 04:16.40 Ashleigh Airey Um. 04:17.97 Alex That's how he finds out through the birds that Reagan is about to betray him so he kills him to but this was in a a kid's book about mythology and it's really stuck with me because of how violent it was so I think about it a lot. 04:33.13 archaeoteacup I Mean we already established in last episode that our childhoods were just full of people telling us how awful and violent the world was going to be so I guess this is no different. Ah ok, no, that's faith near excellent, good good to know. 04:39.83 Alex Yeah, so it was a bit on brand but that's that's my favorite dragon fafnir. 04:40.53 Ashleigh Airey Um, yeah. 04:48.18 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, well, there's 1 dragon that really stands out and it's smog of course. Um, but I was also thinking of the and the temerare books by and naomi novik. 04:49.45 archaeoteacup What about you? as of course yes of course. 05:00.98 archaeoteacup This is. 05:03.71 Ashleigh Airey Um, and it's dragons and history. So it's actually based in the napoleonic Wars but there's dragons. Yeah, and so that's that's one of the things I I remember from it anyway and I was thinking not even not books but Films Dragon heart. 05:07.68 archaeoteacup Cool that is cool. 05:21.40 Ashleigh Airey That's like 1 of my favorite films like that's great like Sean Connery is a dragon like what you want more from life. 05:21.53 archaeoteacup Um, God yes. 05:32.48 archaeoteacup Ah I mean some semi decent cgi would be okay, but like. 05:33.24 Ashleigh Airey It was the 90 s that was that was top of the range Cta. 05:41.65 archaeoteacup Ah, but you mentioning those other books just reminding me of another book that I read recently called the natural history of dragons which is actually I really enjoyed it. Um, by Murray Brennan and it's basically written as if you're a like from the perspective of ah the what's her name lady trent. 05:48.61 Ashleigh Airey Um, yeah. 05:59.46 archaeoteacup Um, and she is her first voyage off into the distance and she's accompanying her husband on like an expedition to go and find dragons. But it's just the the way the book's written is quite clever because it's sort of set in victorian times. But then at some point you realize there's dragons in the world like it's it's just how life is kind of thing. But so it's more of like a natural history perspective biological analysis of. 06:13.68 Ashleigh Airey Um, yeah. 06:18.39 archaeoteacup Dragons and how they function and all this kind of stuff which I find quite quite interesting. So yeah, 1 kind of fits I guess a bit with what we're going to do today. So that's also nice. But and yeah, how this particular concept has developed so I mean Alex you mentioned already the the oh forgot his name already fun frania fen finvier. 06:23.89 Ashleigh Airey Um. 06:37.74 archaeoteacup Fafnir fafnir and sort of those original dragons are then almost kind of evil in a way I guess and like smog as well is sort of the representation of of evil and greed and and that kind of thing I mean has that sort of is that still a thing in fantasy has that changed would you say. 06:38.95 Alex Fafnir. 06:47.42 Ashleigh Airey Greed. 06:56.83 Ashleigh Airey I Think you get your territorial dragons. Don't you they always have a territory and they always may always think they want gold and the kind of hoarding and but I think it has been framed because of Smogg Um, so yeah. 07:03.64 archaeoteacup No. 07:10.46 archaeoteacup Well or even like Beowulf we read Beowulf as part of the archeology book club and that that was also at the end. There's the random dragon that he goes and yeah has to kill. Yeah, right when he's like 80 years old but anyway that's ah, but yeah. 07:17.44 Ashleigh Airey Some fights. Spar will so. 07:25.82 Alex I think it's I think especially if you think about today. There's like interesting things happening with dragons as far as like like I think okay like looking at it like from stepping back real quick I think what we've seen over time is at dragons. Depictions of drag at least have become more cohesive. Ah I think they're still obviously very different across cultures. But I think you can kind of see them take shape so they go from this like warm thing in some parts and then it's more stereotypically like a thing with wings and stuff. 07:45.41 Ashleigh Airey Um. 08:03.15 Alex And then I think you also get more sentient detections of dragons. Obviously you still and even today you still get dragons as like a monster but I think you see more of like dragons as like characters as like people and then I think even and then if you go. 08:13.28 Ashleigh Airey Are. 08:13.31 archaeoteacup Oh oh. 08:21.40 Alex If you take into the modern time then you have even more interesting depictions of dragons. So like I hate to bring up video games but like Skyram Dragons have their own language and their own culture. Ah you know So I think there's it's interesting to see them develop into something kind of more. 08:28.65 Ashleigh Airey Um. 08:41.31 Alex Rounded and more interesting. Although you know obviously that could have existed before and we just either don't have those stories left or whatever. Yeah. 08:45.98 archaeoteacup The written records now which I'm curious and actually from with your your background of the norwegian side and the chinese side would you because the the sort of the chinese dragon in yeah, modern kind of tellings I suppose is still and sort of modern cultural different events that take place in everything is such a specific. Kind of dragon almost like I would never picture the chinese dragon as I would necessarily the sort of european medieval ideal of a dragon if that makes sense like they're still quite different. Would you say that that's also developed quite a lot in China or is it still quite ingrained in the kind of traditional concept of a dragon. 09:23.46 Alex Yeah I mean I think it's such I iconography that I think it's kind of remained its own bespoke thing I think you can because you really can differentiate between like a chinese dragon I think even if you're not chinese or from China you know what that means. So I think it's like become its own thing. 09:27.81 archaeoteacup Is. 09:38.00 archaeoteacup Um. 09:41.76 Alex But weird they enough when I was a kid I always thought that they they kind of looked the safe in my brain I was like ah I mean chinese dragons don't have wings but I was like this some more or less the same they look more lion-like but to be honest, a lot of a and China chinese ah depictions look like lines for some reason. So. 09:44.80 archaeoteacup Yeah, ah. 09:44.16 Ashleigh Airey Um, well. 09:54.33 archaeoteacup Are really oh okay we I suppose yeah and I'm thinking about it which is the lion a big symbol in China as well. 10:05.72 Alex Ah, sometimes I mean you have the big lion dances like the big thing that people dress up as and they for a chinese new year. Um I don't know we got we got lots. We got lots of animals over there I speak like I'm from I'm not from China I'm from. 10:09.16 Ashleigh Airey Who. 10:17.82 archaeoteacup No, but you have the the put it this way you have more understanding of the cultural background to it than than I do so I would much prefer you to talk about it than me try to talk about it. 10:21.54 Alex Um, Chinese americans. 10:31.51 archaeoteacup Ah, um, you want take a bash sorry I know I know I didn't want to like force you sorry. 10:32.17 Alex That's fair. 10:35.31 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, and thank you. It's just a literally opening magnet. Um, So yeah, maybe we can chat a little bit more about how we can use archeology and fantasy and and vice Versa. So. With the investigation of fantasy elements. Do You think we can use that in archeology yet. For example, Dragons. Ah. 10:54.73 archaeoteacup For example, Dragons hypothetically speaking. 11:03.95 Alex I mean I think there's something about always keeping your your your're um mind open to things not necessarily to the point that you're doing ancient Alien stuff Obviously now of course not no Peudo are you Dragons are very real. 11:11.49 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, no Pseudo archaeology here. 11:20.56 Alex But but I think there's something interesting about thinking about perspective in the past even though logically we would say well it's not a dragon it perhaps it could be that people sort something as a dragon or you know related something. 11:32.79 archaeoteacup Are. 11:39.16 Alex 2 dragon qualities. Um, you know stuff like that I think is really interesting and I mean I'm one for trying to be as open as possible interpretation like the thing I always like to talk about when I talk about zoo archeology and and interpretation in general is like during my masters. 11:48.55 Ashleigh Airey Um. 11:58.25 Alex Like I said I did I did a bunch of fish archaeology which is not fun. A lot of unsurprisingly would you believe it that on a coastal site. You have a lot of cod ah almost like they were fishing I don't really notice trying to define. But 1 thing I did find was a single monk fish. 11:58.43 Ashleigh Airey Okay. 12:08.00 archaeoteacup But weird that with. 12:08.34 Ashleigh Airey Um, weird. Well. 12:17.86 Alex Jaw it was just one and you know my thesis are like yeah you know they they are you know bottom theaters you'd have to they you have to do deep sea fishing to catch these ah you know in comparison to some other fish that people were catching around this time. So it could have been an accident and then I was kind of like I didn't really write this in my thesis but part of me was like maybe someone found it and thought it was cool and kept it. 12:42.96 archaeoteacup Ah, my not yeah. 12:43.19 Ashleigh Airey Yeah, completely that that's a thing I suppose you could sort of apply um, without iconography I suppose of Dragons and any kind of like animal to their lifeways. You know if they're keeping stuff if there's stuff on the site that you don't really know why it's there. It could. I Hate to say it be part of a ritualistic aspect of their life. Um. 13:01.72 archaeoteacup Ritual. 13:08.12 Alex And it's not even just ritual though I think there's just curiosity and like interests and like you know that's cool I'm going to keep it like stuff like that. That's not tangible and hard to prove but it's something I always think about when it comes to interpretation of like you know we really. 13:09.77 archaeoteacup Good. 13:26.51 Alex Strive for this really rigorous scientific approach to it and obviously that makes sense you know, otherwise you could say whatever you want but part of me is always kind of like you know I collect things because they're cool or they have good vibes. You don't find that archaeologically. 13:34.57 Ashleigh Airey Um, we have no. 13:43.70 Alex Vibes aren't in the archeological record. It would be great I mean I could tell some vibes. Yeah. 13:44.27 Ashleigh Airey I Think they are they are they I've liked all the time on site. Ah like yeah. 13:44.30 archaeoteacup Wouldn't that be great though. 13:49.89 archaeoteacup Vibes I'm going to recatalogue my fines vibes. 13:55.56 Ashleigh Airey Ah of on vibes like this one I like and this one I don't like it's the dragons that coming ah stop talking about us. But yeah, so we can use um archeology. 14:00.11 Alex Um, oh my god. 14:11.80 Ashleigh Airey And we can use fantasy elements in archaeology to kind of maybe look at our interpretations of sites as well. But you think we can use archaeology in fantasy and we can use our and you know our different theories and applications of archaeology into a fantasy setting. 14:28.76 Alex We can and I do it all the time on my other podcast. 14:29.87 Ashleigh Airey Um, they know so tick. 14:31.45 archaeoteacup Perfect in which case I think before we continue with this discussion. All this talking is making me a bit hungry. It's been a while since Eleven says So I think it's time for afternoon tea. Would you agree? yeah. 14:42.71 Ashleigh Airey I Think so. 14:46.20 archaeoteacup Good. Okay, well then let's ah unpack the teapot and the s scums and we'll be right back.