00:00.42 archaeoteacup Welcome back. Everyone hopefully the teacupps are now a little bit fuller again. Make sure to you know we try to cool down a bit. Don't scold yourself so Aaron we did already introduce you in the first section of this episode and we talked a little bit about kind of how you got into this topic. Um, but maybe we can go into a bit more detail. So I mean you've mentioned a couple of different collaborators that you work with but how. 00:04.69 Aaron Ah. 00:19.92 archaeoteacup Big is the kind of archaeological tattoo community I Guess yeah. 00:24.17 Aaron It is it is still pretty niche. It is. You know there's um, there's a core group of us that have been working on these questions for you know the past Decade and and some people for much longer than that. Um, and. 00:34.83 archaeoteacup Are. 00:38.61 Aaron You know we we all know each other it makes it very hard to do anonymous peer review because right? that's obviously Matt's paper yes um well I'm sorry about that we can ah maybe cut that out my alarm going off there on my phone to remind me of my appointment coming up. Okay, well well well. 00:44.15 archaeoteacup Um, because you're like oh that's obviously Danny. Ah. 00:54.45 archaeoteacup Oh I didn't actually hear it. Ah. 00:58.18 Aaron But all right? So so restarting. So um, no, So there are a very small number of people that are working full time professionally in this and. You know I get I get calls constantly or inquiries from students and they want they say you know how how can I go into tattoo archeology I'm like well you know honestly you can't um you know like I have the freedom to do tattoo archeology because it is completely independent because it's not part of my job. It doesn't have requirements on it and. 01:18.14 archaeoteacup Ah. 01:22.91 archaeoteacup Are the. 01:29.95 Aaron So you know if someone wants to study this thing The the best advice I can give them is you know you need to pick a type of object or type of art and a region and then go into it through that route because modern Academia doesn't just doesn't support the idea of like I'm going to be a generalist. 01:41.11 archaeoteacup Um, and right. 01:48.70 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, unfortunately. 01:48.70 Aaron Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no bone tools from this 1 site in this 1 place. Ah. 01:55.36 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, Ah, yeah I would say I have a lot of people ask me because I well I went the other brew I Guess I I specialized in a method which is similar like it's a very specific Microwa analysisis a very specific method right? and it's very specific materials that I look at as well. But then it does allow me to look at. Different regions which is quite nice so people are archaeologists are indeed always confused when they're like but but what's your cultural specialism and I'm going I if I don't really have one I just sort of look tools from different thing but indeed I'm still specialized in a method which yeah fits. 02:23.59 Aaron Yeah, right? Yeah well and that's the thing right? I mean it's ah it's how it's how the academy is built I mean you can be an an archeologist of households. But but when you actually then cut through that you're going to have looked at you're going to have spent years. 02:34.17 archaeoteacup Yeah. 02:41.90 Aaron Knowing way too much about the households of this one particular region during this one particular period and you know there's information that translates when you start looking at the bigger picture but you can't just go into it broadly. 02:42.18 archaeoteacup The yeah yeah. 02:51.35 archaeoteacup Yeah, no. 02:53.43 Aaron And so that I think is where I've been really really fortunate is to sort of be able to do that independently. 02:59.34 archaeoteacup Ah, which in which case in case people are listening in and you know are thinking? No but that sounds good I Want to do that. Do you have any kind of suggestions for maybe gaps in in the current research in terms of specific tools in terms of specific regions or things that maybe someone. Might be able to pick for a dissertation topic or something like that. 03:16.41 Aaron Um, right? Well I mean there, there's it's still there is still a lot of work waiting to be done. Um I think the the problem for when you start talking about dissertations is can you make a dissertation out of it. 03:27.60 archaeoteacup Right? there. 03:30.30 Aaron And so you know there are a lot of ah you know I've run across a lot of people who for you know, undergraduate theses or undergraduate sort of some summative papers are doing things like you know tattooing in Egypt and you know and that's great. That's again, this sort of broad spectrum. You know broad look at ah behavior within a region. But. 03:36.31 archaeoteacup Um. 03:41.26 archaeoteacup Ah, okay. 03:46.30 archaeoteacup Hello. 03:49.84 Aaron But once they get to graduate school if they want to pursue that specifically you know how many how many tools might there actually be you know how many collections can you actually get access to you know these are the sorts of questions that are going to sort of haunt you if you're trying to make a specific study of it right. 03:56.70 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 04:00.96 archaeoteacup All the practicalities we're living the tree like this. Yeah I know I know that feeling as well I had a similar similar experience where I was going. Yeah, the Scott who carve to more and we look at them with then aa char of the lovely curator at the national museum of Scotland basically sort of said to me. But. 04:06.92 Aaron But right. 04:19.95 Aaron Right? Yeah and you know that's what that's what we're then sort of see is seeing is that you know new voices in this in this niche field are getting into it as related to their broader research. 04:20.30 archaeoteacup How many years do you have like is this going to be how many lifetimes do you have to look at this topic. It's oh yeah, okay fair. 04:35.74 archaeoteacup Is done. 04:37.92 Aaron So They're they're finding things while they are working on other questions and I think but you know I think that's that's really the important thing and that is sort of the my goal having gotten into this was sort of to lift this veil a little bit and be like well. You know again, why weren't people doing it in the past. Well how can we change it? Well one of the ways we can change it is by having people look for it. 04:55.10 archaeoteacup Yeah, and in terms of that kind of idea that you know it's becoming a little bit more of a bigger topic I mean how is the study of of tattoos or body modification in general or other other related topics or themes is that sort of becoming less of a I don't want to say taboo subject because I. Wouldn't say it was necessarily to boo but like more of a popular subject or more respected I Guess as a subject in in the academic archaeological community. 05:21.25 Aaron I think so you know I mean people are still ah well so you know my my anecdote that I tell right is that when I first got into this um you know over a decade ago now I I had reached out to one of the you know very sort of senior scholars on Southeastern Archeology south of United States archaeology and said we know I want to look at this with tattoos and. And he kind of like he harrumphed at me and said something like you know there are more graduate students with tattoos of ancient art than there were tattooed people in the ancient world. Um, and. 05:49.82 archaeoteacup Ah. 05:52.69 Aaron And and and that that by the way is the example one for why we are not finding it right right? because there's there's an assumption that it's just not there or that it's you know, whatever it's right tattooing is for criminals and prostitutes and blah blah Blah Blah Blah um. 05:57.42 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, there you go because it's assumed that they weren't there I Guess Yeah, yeah, yeah. 06:08.80 archaeoteacup Yeah, the. 06:10.94 Aaron So there's you know there's definitely a bias at work there and and you know anecdotally the people that seem to be really interested in this are the younger generation or people that are even younger than me. Um, you know I'm I've I Somehow have crossed that line where I'm never I'm not part of that generation anymore of younger scholars. 06:18.74 archaeoteacup Live. 06:26.88 archaeoteacup Ah, they're all getting old now I'm doing wait what you how old I thought you were 12 You've got a p d what? Yeah yeah. 06:29.40 Aaron Which which kind of stinks. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right? No no, no, no, no ah and you know as far as reception wise I mean you know when I give papers at conferences I definitely from time to time feel this whole like oh here's Aaron talking about tattooing again. Um. 06:42.56 archaeoteacup Are. 06:48.40 Aaron Ah, you know, but but also like the hell with you right? like I you know I'm actually publishing on this. What are you doing? so. 06:49.80 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly it's peer reviewed. It's you know it's valid research. It's and yeah, it sounds like there's some exciting things coming about as well and do you think oh well and just quick question So you mentioned that you know oh there's more graduate students with tattoos than than ancient tattoos. 07:00.40 Aaron Yeah. 07:09.60 archaeoteacup Do you think that in order to kind of and like you say you've already said that you know you don't necessarily approach it from the topic of I'm studying tattoos you approach it from different ways. But would you say that in order to understand I Guess the kind of older ah methods and techniques and and experiences around tattooing you have to either have tattoos yourself or have tattooed. Yourself or do you think that someone with no tattoos could also come in and do it. 07:30.66 Aaron Well I mean if if if we can't study it by doing it then then Anthropology is out the window right? like like if we have if we have to be a part of the culture to understand it then then we might as well just give up. Yeah, that is That's that is what anthropology does right? We're outside observers we should be able to make this happen. 07:42.80 archaeoteacup The aspect. 07:50.17 Aaron But but you know in practice not having that bias certainly certainly helps and I think that was I think looking back that is a big change from the previous generation to my generation of scholars was not necessarily having been tattooed but being in a. Generation where tattooing was more commonplace and so being able to look at you know, look more sort of I don't know open be more open in looking at these ideas and considering the past. 08:12.79 archaeoteacup Ah, but. 08:22.25 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah. 08:24.40 Aaron And and getting you know there. There was a lot of scholarship on tattoos in the anthropological community in the in the you know the 1990 s but so much of it was you know modern primitives this and you know social rejects that. And yeah, you know like all these kinds of things right right? and. 08:34.21 archaeoteacup Um, and you're sitting there going hello with my I hieroglyph on my um. 08:42.86 Aaron Yeah, no I mean you know's all the sociological studies about how you know the if you have tattoos then youre going to do drugs and die in a fire right? like there's there's a high statistical correlation there. Um yeah, depending on who you talk to but but but I think you know getting past those ideas was really important. 08:48.99 archaeoteacup Of course, of course the I am. Yeah. 09:02.80 Aaron Um, so I don't think you you yourself have to be tattooed. But I I think you need to be open to these ideas and I also think that people just need to do their reading. Yeah I mean that's the biggest thing when you look back at like the eighteenth and nineteenth and even early twentieth centuries with people talking about or looking at tattoos in the past is they're just very limited. 09:02.16 archaeoteacup Um, earth. 09:09.40 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 09:21.33 Aaron In their ideas of how these how the process was done What the techniques were what the tools were they they want everything to look like samoa right? that was that was quote unquote ancient tattooing as they knew it and they wanted everything to to be handtapped and you know they wanted it to be done for reasons. 09:23.50 archaeoteacup Right. Right. 09:32.79 archaeoteacup Right. 09:38.50 Aaron You know there's there's you know those great accounts of the ah um minnet and the the women from ah dear Al Bahari I believe it is and thebes. Um, that were they're found in the nineteen hundreds you know high state is women in the tomb in the complex funery complex of the phaoh and are are found to be tattooed. 09:44.93 archaeoteacup Okay. 09:57.53 Aaron And this is around the turn of the century I think and you know the first discussion of these women is that well clearly they were concubines because they were tattooed they were in service to the pharaoh and yeah, right and so. 10:06.11 archaeoteacup Um, right? And yes. 10:14.50 Aaron So so being able to step away from those things is really really important to understanding it. 10:17.38 archaeoteacup Yes, yes, which I mean that's hopefully hopefully if you've gotten that far in an archaeology or anthropology degree I would hope that you already have learned a little bit about removing yourself from the bias of modern life Anyway, but but indeed so. 10:33.50 Aaron Ah, yeah, although again, the generation matters you know people ah people forty years ago were learning a much different vision of you know the path to than we learned today. 10:35.57 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 10:44.15 archaeoteacup Ah, but it's but it's good to hear that it's getting a bit more a bit more open and a bit more accepted a bit more generally kind of talked about I suppose as well if you I imagine you get a lot of people coming to you and saying oh I had this idea or or something like that. 10:53.27 Aaron Yeah, yeah I mean I hope so right I mean I hope I'm not just shouting into the void here. Um, you increasingly again, this is this is where I'm I'm really privileged to be able to do. This is is independent research is increasingly I've sort of. Moving away from that academic discourse and instead trying to talk more to you know the tattoo community to to to people who actually do this as their profession because you know tattooists are really interested in the history of their discipline of their practice and very few of them have access to journals that are behind paywalls. 11:15.81 archaeoteacup Um, first. 11:21.79 archaeoteacup Oh yeah, ah right? no. 11:27.90 Aaron And so I think it's you know it's really maybe even more important than sharing it with the academy is is sharing what we know with people that are actually doing this and living this today. 11:36.61 archaeoteacup Yeah, no couldn't I could not agree more very very much a pro of that one and you you mentioned the sort of the that you're doing it obviously is independent research and so obviously this this isn't your day job. Shall we say it's sort of the the extra ah works that you do when when you have the time and funding I presume. How do you manage to balance that kind of doing independent research with actually having a daily job. 12:00.73 Aaron Ah, poorly. Um, yeah, you know I think ah so you know I think it kind of works like an Adhd thing with me right? like and you know where like I get ideas in my head. 12:13.55 archaeoteacup Think. 12:16.35 Aaron And they kind of just percolate there and there's almost kind of a narrative that's running you know, kind of running in the background on a low hum and you know things will sit back there for a while and then you know I'll even I'll even find myself like writing when I'm asleep or you know I'll wake up and be like oh this is what that section of the paper should look like and. 12:22.31 archaeoteacup Um, in. 12:30.63 archaeoteacup Um. 12:35.25 Aaron And then so you know if I can find the time to then bang that out then it's great. Um, you know the reality of it is is that is that my wife is very forgiving and um and supports me on this and yeah. 12:39.54 archaeoteacup Um, the. 12:45.41 archaeoteacup Same every says how do you manage should do all your different things like because my husband is also basically that' yeah, yeah, yeah, which no I think that that's no but I can imagine this guy I. 12:52.63 Aaron Big right big because I because I have a great support network that that is the answer. Yeah. 13:02.39 archaeoteacup There's so many people I know who who have you know their projects and they're so passionate about it and they're so interested in it but they just can't get the funding or they just can't you know, actually get an academic position. Um, so they go into a different job and then just don't have the time or the or the energy to to do it So I'm always curious to hear. People who are managing to to balance it and to combine it. How how it works or doesn't work this. 13:25.15 Aaron What's I think it's it's become my hobby you know and that's that is how I view it and that's how then you know when I'm doing like you know these unfunded research trips to Germany to look at mummies in a museum. You know like this is the none of this. 13:38.61 archaeoteacup And. 13:38.71 Aaron You know I don't get reimbursement for this. This is this is done on vacation time. There is no University funding. It's it's out of pocket. But it is It is my hobby. That's what I spend money on you know some people spend money on you know, miniatures for war gaming. Some people spend them on Yay right. 13:48.50 archaeoteacup Ah, 1 theing north oh fair enough I do. 13:55.97 Aaron Bottles of whiskey. Some people spend them on tattooed mummies. It's just it's what you're into. Yeah. 13:59.33 archaeoteacup I can just imagine your wife going? Oh oh, where are we going on the holiday this year oh well we're going to this play where are the mummies like what? what mummies no darling but definitely going on holiday this time. But if I could maybe have a day or 2 14:09.77 Aaron 8 no no, that's we ah we we those are days where I peel off and we we do the the things that we are separately interested in i. 14:22.29 archaeoteacup That's yeah, that works that works she can go and look at her I don't know her viking horned helmet something for Holly but but yeah, no, well, it's ah I think yeah I think that it sounds like ah an excellent. Way to wait to have a hobby and and a really nice hobby and in that respect and in terms of kind of I mean we've already touched a little bit of on the different kind of the the not approach the how it how it is viewed and all of that kind of thing but are there any kind of other issues or are there any other what you would see it as as advantages ah of kind of. This more ah more of a niche topic within kind of academic research. 15:00.90 Aaron Um, well I mean I guess the big advantage is that it doesn't seem like the well will ever run dry. Um, you know I mean I really thought you know 13 ah my my first book ah drawing with great needles which is about ah tattooing in ancient eastern north America came out as an edited volume. But. You know at that time I was kind of like well I've done that and and then stuff just kept coming up and so I think that's you know, just having continued to try to keep a curious mind has done that and yeah, there's definitely this kind of outsider status that in some ways benefits you where. 15:18.60 archaeoteacup Um, yeah. 15:27.76 archaeoteacup The. 15:34.66 archaeoteacup Um, and. 15:35.73 Aaron Um, you know on 1 hand I don't have a ph d I don't have a university affiliation on the other hand I'm just some guy that's going to keep politely asking until they let me do the thing I want to do so oh. 15:44.10 archaeoteacup Well and I would say I mean you were very modest at the start but I would say indeed you have made a made a name for yourself now as the tattoo guy you know who who which you know so it's is's working. You're asking enough questions but and on that note, do you have any. 15:49.79 Aaron Ah so I appreciate that. 16:01.77 archaeoteacup Kind of exciting plans or projects that are coming up I believe this episode will be released end of February or mid mid to end of February no, ah if there's anything you're allowed to talk about by that point. 16:06.56 Aaron Um, oh yeah, well so what right? So but so by the time this comes out hopefully. We Danny and some others and I will have a article in The European Journal of archeology about. Um, everyone's favorite tattooed Iceman um, so hopefully that will be out in print and um, that's that's right, that's that's. 16:24.60 archaeoteacup Um, ah okay, in which case I'll share it in the show notes. So check the show notes and then you'll be able to see if it came to fruit shit. Ah. 16:33.47 Aaron No I mean I'm excited about that one. That's that's one of those things that sort of you know, ran around my head starting back during the pandemic and eventually just got the right team of people together to work on it and so we're we're reassessing the sort of conventional wisdom as to how his tattoos may have been created. Yeah yeah, so. 16:40.18 archaeoteacup Ah, and. 16:48.54 archaeoteacup Exciting. Okay, oh hello and deified me. 16:53.21 Aaron So that's that's coming out and there's there's another paper too that Danny and I are both working on related to similar topics to this idea coming out of our experimental archeological study of you know can we look at preserve tattoos and talk about how they were actually made. 17:04.57 archaeoteacup Ah, boom. 17:07.42 archaeoteacup Yeah, yeah. 17:09.58 Aaron And sort of take the take the guest work out of that process make informed hypotheses. Um the ah the Oxford handbook on the archeology of body modification will be coming out. Ah is is coming out already. Um, it's sort of coming out online as chapters are finished but it's going to be imprint. 17:12.80 archaeoteacup Yeah. 17:21.45 archaeoteacup Um, ah oh. 17:28.83 archaeoteacup Oh exactly. 17:29.52 Aaron Late next year and that's that's going to be a huge book that will have everything from like you know, genital mutilation to Andy and tattooing in it. So yeah, yes, yeah, and and so for various colleagues and I have a couple of chapters in that and. 17:35.57 archaeoteacup Oh oh Wow! Amazing! Oh very cool that that's joining the list of handbooks. 17:49.51 Aaron Um, it'll be good. Be good for those to see the light of day too. Yeah. 17:52.35 archaeoteacup Perfect. Okay well I'll make sure to share them as well. Ah in the so yes, if ah, anyone's interested. Do do keep checking the things any other final final chance for any other plugs or I don't know declarations of of passion for tattoos or anything like that. 18:08.46 Aaron No I guess not um, follow me on the Instagram um, no, but but right great. Yeah, but seriously like this is you know one of the big fulfillments and enjoyments I get out of doing this research is talking with people about it. Um. 18:10.33 archaeoteacup Yeah, which is also in the show notes. 18:24.40 Aaron And and sharing the information and that's sort of why that Instagram account was created and you know reach out, ask me questions you know folks folks should feel free anytime there are no stupid questions. Um, you know we're all learning together. So yeah, reach out anytime. Yeah. 18:26.90 archaeoteacup 7 18:40.27 archaeoteacup Perfect. Well thank you so much for coming to chat to me today I very much appreciate it that marks the end of our t break. It sounds like you've got a lot to get onwave. You've got a whole you know topic to to do so. Ah, thank you very much for joining me and. 18:54.48 Aaron Thank you so much for having me I Really appreciate each time. 18:54.76 archaeoteacup Chatting to me about tattoos today and if anyone else indeed wants to find out more about Aaron's work history of tattoos anything else. We've talked about today. Do check the show notes and ah, there'll be Aaron's contact information there as well. So you can start bombarding him with all your questions about tattooing. Um, and do not forget that for our apn members There's also a special bonus episode coming out next week with Aaron and Danny together who was the professional tattoo artist and guest from my last month's episode to talk more about 1 of their recent collaborative projects. Hope that you enjoyed our journey today if you want to help support this show and all of the other amazing series that form the archeology podcast network you can become a member you get access to extra bonus content such as this special bonus episode. You also get um, exclusive early access to ad free episodes and you also just help us to create even more amazing content. More information check out the homep page at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com see you next month