00:00.00 archaeoteacup Welcome back Everyone So we know? Well we don't actually know anymore about Tattoos. We just know how much we don't know about tattoos. But so maybe we could discuss even more that we don't know about tattoos. Well no, let's start with something that we do Know. So For example, how many. Examples and I mean this might be a bit too specific a question so feel free to interpret it as you wish, but how many examples of actual ancient Tattoos. Do we have like that we can surely say that is a tattoo. 00:28.40 Aaron More than you would think. Um, so so one of my side projects is the tattooed human mummy database excuse me and so this is ah this is a thing where it's an open source database where I just keep track of all of the published examples of. 00:30.40 archaeoteacup Virginia. Oh. 00:44.69 Aaron Tattoos from the ancient past. So these are things that are preserved on human skin deliberately or accidentally mummified human skin and I think at last count we're up to about 50 or so archeological sites on 5 or so continents and that's sites. 00:44.71 archaeoteacup Is it. 00:59.61 archaeoteacup Wow and that sites even not even necessarily individuals. No. 01:04.13 Aaron Yeah, that exactly yeah, that's actual identifiable sites and then beyond that there are you know there's sort of this indefinite body of ah preserved tattoos that come from things like historical sources where you know maybe a british a british writer traveling in Sudan just. You know in the eighteen hundreds writes this offhand thing about and in the cemetery near such and such all of the mummies had tattoos and you're like okay well you know you know so what we don't know what site that is and we don't know what all of the mum you know is this mean one does it mean 500 so you know there's that there's that kind of error in there. Um, but. 01:29.61 archaeoteacup Right? Great! thanks. 01:38.24 archaeoteacup Oh. 01:42.60 Aaron You know that that number is increasing constantly and you know there have been more identifications of preserve tattoos in the past decade than there were in the century before that. Yeah. 01:44.17 archaeoteacup Oh. 01:54.58 archaeoteacup And in terms of the kind of technology that's used to identify tattoos because I believe um, Danny mentioned something about using kind of infrared and that could then show you tattoos that hadn't been seen before like what's what is the sort of process of. Of tattoos being hidden that we can now get to or are there some processes that we haven't worked out how to kind of interpret yet. 02:14.76 Aaron Yeah, you know infrared and multi-spectral imaging are the are the big ones or the big tools in that kit and those work you know, Even even if you can't see the tattoo visibly right? The human Epidermis depending on the preservation conditions skin might darken. It might. 02:33.79 archaeoteacup A. 02:34.65 Aaron Twist It might lay over itself. Um, you know parts of it may degrade more than others. It may be covered with body paint or with clothing or other things and so there are certainly examples of preserved human remains that have not been identified as being tattooed, but that might be. 02:53.98 archaeoteacup Um, here done. 02:54.13 Aaron And the way the multi-spectral imaging or the ah the infrared imaging works basically relies on the fact that tattoo pigment absorbs and reflects light in these spectra in these different spectrum differently than untattooed skin does. 03:09.56 archaeoteacup Oh good. 03:11.29 Aaron And so even if the surface of the skin is say you know a dark brown a a rich mahogany brown from being exposed to the desert for centuries. Um, when you look at it in the in the near infrared spectrum that light will. 03:16.14 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, yeah. 03:25.82 Aaron Absorb and reflect differently on the and the tattooed skin and the non tattooed skin and so you can see those marks and yeah, even after all those years I mean there were there were examples when Danny and I were working in that collection of Andy and remains where we would point the camera at ah, an an arm or a body part that had no visible sign. 03:28.20 archaeoteacup Ah time even after all those years. Oh. 03:45.83 Aaron And all of a sudden you're looking at not just like single dots but you know complex compositions of tattoos encircling the whole arm that would otherwise never have been noticed. Ah. 03:48.70 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, amazing. How did you get any actual work done I would have just been squealing the whole time like you see that yes I can see it. 04:02.60 Aaron there's there's there's a lot of that. It's you know it's like any archeological project. It starts out with giddiness and like you know, ah like you know you're ready. You're ready to go. You're going to do all these things and by like day four you're kind of unlike the death march you're like oh my god we've got 200 more to go. We're never going to get through this. Ah right. 04:06.75 archaeoteacup Yeah. 04:16.37 archaeoteacup Ah, ah, another tattoo. Oh Yay! Ah, great. Let's document this one I guess and yeah, but I mean amazing amazing that that's so yeah I assume this is by the way being written up and will be ah. 04:20.59 Aaron It's. Yeah, we've run out of recording sheets. Yeah. 04:35.74 archaeoteacup Published Ah, at some point soon or will it. Ah. 04:37.82 Aaron Hopefully hopefully sooner than later. Actually there's ah, there's a German colleague who is working on the question of andi and remains in European Museum collections for his dissertation and so we've been. We've been collaborating and um. 04:49.46 archaeoteacup Ah, okay. 04:53.74 Aaron Publication of a lot of this may wait until after his dissertation is out so as not to interrupt that process. Yeah. 04:56.83 archaeoteacup Got it fair enough fair enough do air. We allowed to know who it is in case people want to to look him up or Robert gust they go oh amazing. 05:03.13 Aaron Sure yeah Rob Robin Gurst G Er R S T is his name. Yeah, he's he's in Germany and he's actually presented at the world mummy congress and he and I co-authored a paper at the recent european archeological association or european society of archeology I never can't remember what the the Eaa meeting. 05:19.52 archaeoteacup The yeah European association I think right for European association of work. Yeah well I should know it I was there in the last what this? well. But but yeah, fantastic. Oh so you've got you know your own tattooing apprentice now in think alarate. Oh that's very yeah. Um, but yeah. 05:21.83 Aaron Right? there you go? Yes, yeah. 05:31.39 Aaron No, no, no, no, no collaborator. 05:39.24 archaeoteacup And in terms of ah when you're interpreting these tattoos then because as you said the skin's all twisted or it's dark or it's thick how much kind of imagination is needed I think I saw at some point recently you posted on your social media about kind of some Alpha and amiga sign that had been identified and you were saying That's a bit of a stretch of the imagination I mean how much. How much bias is there would you say in the interpretation of that or how can you avoid that I guess. 06:03.90 Aaron You Oh It's hard right? Um I mean I think it's like any sort of any sort of art history or any sort of you know, working with ancient symbolism especially on Artifacts. There's all different levels of preservation and you know the best The best cases you can just look at these things and see them with the naked eye and. They are incredible and you can draw them out by hand very easily and in the worst cases you know skin is degraded or pieces are missing or the you know the marks themselves have have interruptions in them from from curation processes or from preservation processes and yeah, a lot of it is a lot of it can be. 06:25.42 archaeoteacup Ah. 06:34.72 archaeoteacup Ah. 06:41.81 archaeoteacup Brown Yeah and did you find. For example, when you were looking at this sort of big collection of different mummies that you would sort of see some symbols on one and go I'm not sure what that is okay, maybe it's kind of this and then maybe you'd see the same symbols on another one or was it all quite varied. 06:42.90 Aaron Sort of art rather than science. Honestly. 06:57.88 Aaron No, absolutely so again, it's it sort of works like any form of ancient art. You know you look at after you look at a couple thousand of the thing you you can you? you get it right? Yeah, exactly you you had a pretty good, pretty good ability to sort of pick out. 07:08.48 archaeoteacup Like ah it's another squiggly snake. Go. 07:14.74 Aaron You know, based on the outlines based on the shared sizes and um, you know, sort of ephemeral shapes you can more closely I think sort of push things into buckets. You know this one's probably a fish based on these other 500 fish we've seen 07:23.68 archaeoteacup Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no interesting and in terms of we've kind of spoken a little bit about how like why these tattoos would have come about and how they would have come about but they like you say they're sort of there are do you think that people tattoo just simply as a form of decoration or would there be other. Ah, kind of reasons I suppose for for painting themselves with with these different symbols or yeah pictures I guess. 07:54.86 Aaron Um, I mean my bet is that it was rarely a personal form of decoration Now you know of course everybody wants that once tattoos on your body. It becomes part of your identity right? Regardless of how it was that it what the cultural processes were that got it there but again. 08:00.47 archaeoteacup Um, did it. 08:04.81 archaeoteacup Ah. 08:10.17 Aaron Based on what we know about historical you know, Pre-western tattooing and projecting into the past our our expectation is that these are things that were um, not necessarily selected by the individual but were given to them by value of. Who they were in the society by you know honors they had earned by who their parents were by what their lineage was ah by the individual who was doing the tattooing. Um, yeah, that that's sort of what we expect is that there there wasn't this. There wasn't the same idea of people just picking things out and getting them now you know. 08:47.17 archaeoteacup Ah, that's pretty out on the butterfly. 08:48.93 Aaron Right? right now now now having said that um you know For example I've seen so many tattoos from the andes now that have such a wide variety. It's such a huge variation and none no two of them are the same and you know we'll see the same motifs but blocked into completely different. Um. 08:59.65 archaeoteacup Oh. 09:07.93 Aaron Yeah, within completely different sleeves right compositions that run all the way from the from the knuckles up to the 4 up to the elbow and and so I don't quite know how to explain that you know a year ago I would have said oh yeah, no, everybody's just getting what they're given. But then you see that much variation in a sample and you say well you know, maybe. 09:10.17 archaeoteacup Ah, and oh ah. 09:25.45 Aaron Maybe not right? Maybe this is the exception that proves the rule. 09:28.89 archaeoteacup Ah, oh, that's very yeah it and I guess I'm trying to think of other forms of decoration I suppose it's similar and that you have the same kind of I'm trying to think of like there's I can't remember now which culture it is um, one of the in Africa there's ah, there's a culture which. Um I remember have different beaded necklaces and the necklace de said whether you were married whether you had children whether you you know like depending on how many you had and so obviously you know the more necklaces you had the more kind of higher your social status was because it showed that you had all these different kind of tasks completed I guess in in that way. Um. 09:59.94 Aaron Yeah. 10:03.14 archaeoteacup But still the necklaces were all different but they were still the beaded necklaces if that makes so no. 10:08.83 Aaron Right? Yeah, No absolutely well and with clothing or any other form of body Decoration. You know in some in some cases. It is socially Mandated. You know the headdresses look the same and only certain people get them but in other cases, there's a lot of variation and and a lot more um individuality. Agency in those choices. 10:26.12 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, yeah, or even just something I'm thinking something even more modern like you know a tie. It's like yes you have to wear a tie to work but everyone wears different eyeses. So you know exactly. 10:30.93 Aaron Right? That No one said it couldn't have cats on it. 10:38.98 archaeoteacup So you know, no, you have to get this type of tattoo. Well no one said it have to be that because a specific kind of tattoo I get older and a little bit and would you say then that all cultures because like you say more more and more examples of ancient tattoos are sort of coming to light every day and we have all these historic and ethnograph ethnographic references which state that a lot of. 10:40.50 Aaron Yeah, right. 10:58.94 archaeoteacup These cultures in the past and ah and present I suppose um had tattoos would you say that all cultures had some form of tattooing tradition or other kind of body modification. 11:09.54 Aaron Boy That's a boy that's a lemb to go out on isn't it right? All cultures. Um, ah. 11:14.84 archaeoteacup Or you know would you say a large percentage likely had it I guess because it's one of those things I suppose you don't really think about like you say unless you're unless you were forced to think about it you know, but but. 11:26.97 Aaron Right? Well so one of one of the projects that that my buddy Ben Roie and I've been working on over the years is you know, mapping out um tool forms. You know, accounts of tattooing technologies on this global scale and when you look at that map I mean. 11:39.97 archaeoteacup Um, build. 11:42.10 Aaron It is really inching towards every piece of habitable land to where to where we have these accounts from I mean I I increasingly think that like you said more cultures than not had some form of tattooing now. It wasn't always positive right? I mean um, Empires seem to hate tattooing. 11:45.57 archaeoteacup Ah. 11:51.87 archaeoteacup Alright, hit 1 11:58.93 archaeoteacup Oh. 12:01.60 Aaron And you know that's sort of an interesting thread in the in the histories as well is that these large empires whether it's um, you know the western colonialism or Han China or the inca those are groups that may use tattooing but they use it for negative reasons. 12:13.37 archaeoteacup Um, learning is. 12:18.84 archaeoteacup Ah, right now. 12:20.24 Aaron Um, whereas the groups on their periphery use tattooing as marks of of inclusion of being a part of the culture and so you know there's always that tension of like you know some groups Once it's on ah the skin of a of a person or a group. It becomes a mark of belonging but the people next door to them. 12:25.54 archaeoteacup A further. 12:36.55 archaeoteacup Yeah, ah. 12:39.14 Aaron Those same marks are a mark of of the outsider of the other. Yes, yeah, and so particularly I think then when you have these you know political structures that are trying to suppress individuality and sort of bring in bring in these regional cultures under the umbrella of. 12:43.31 archaeoteacup Belonging but in a bad way I Guess Yeah yeah. 12:55.91 Aaron You know the 1 big culture capital c one of the things they do is they so they suppressed individual they suppressed language they suppress traditional dress they suppress traditional religion and and body decoration of all forms. 12:56.15 archaeoteacup The. 13:09.63 archaeoteacup Ah, because yeah I guess it it shows an individuality that or and a kind of part of something that shouldn't be its own individuality anymore. It should be part of the bigger. Yeah, the bigger thing. No interesting. Yeah and in in that sense. Do you then see. 13:16.54 Aaron Right? exactly? yeah. 13:26.67 archaeoteacup Like regional if if we imagine that a lot of different cultures had had these tattoos but um, in terms of what you've seen so far with with your research or in terms of what you've read um, are there kind of regional or temporal Trends I Imagine there must be I mean there wasn't. I Guess it's like what it's It's like anything. It's like stone tools. They just appeared everywhere all over the world I suppose like tatooing they just appear everywhere and you know what?? what? there's sort of a lot of similarities that you see do you see a lot of differences in the symbolism. How I don't know how how does it vary I suppose ah over over place and time. 13:45.45 Aaron We're right. 13:59.77 Aaron Um, I think you think about stone tools is exactly right? You know it's there. There are ceramics. There are stone tools everywhere but the specifics of that are going to vary depending on the group in question. 14:03.60 archaeoteacup Yeah. 14:13.30 Aaron You know their relationship with groups outside of themselves how isolated or or connected they are to networks to Trade Networks what material culture they have in their local environment to work with and you know again, you can sort of envision this in terms of art styles too right? The art of certain cultures is going to be similar although not exact. 14:29.27 archaeoteacup Me yeah. 14:32.30 Aaron Whereas then if you compare that to a culture on the other side of the world. Well you know, maybe they use 2 straight lines to symbolize a path but right or you know you know vertical lines mean rain but but otherwise there's going to be an entirely different set of symbols attached to it. 14:37.39 archaeoteacup Burly different right? yeah. The. 14:49.70 archaeoteacup Yeah, and in terms of then as ah, kind of comparing it with the art. Do you find that in those cases where you have access to examples of both kind of other forms of art and the tattoos do you see similarities in the like are they tattooing themselves with what they're also painting the walls with or or. Carving into their stone or or something like that right? that hand. 15:08.15 Aaron Not necessarily with the same tools but definitely with the same motifs right? Um, you know this is that there's been There's a couple of papers that talk about this in terms of like scarification in Africa and how um the decorations on people's bodies. Are reflected on pots on ceramic vessels and the locations are very similar. We sort of anthropomorphize ceramic vessels. They have shoulders. They have mouths they have waists and so the decorations match tend to match up for where they are on pots and where they are on. People's bodies. Um. 15:26.38 archaeoteacup Earth. Okay. 15:34.83 archaeoteacup Um, right? her. 15:44.45 archaeoteacup It's just there. 15:45.12 Aaron I Heard someone once talk about the idea that ah things that are marked onto the Earth So Petrolyphs Um, you know so um, cave art things like this that those oftentimes appear then also as tattoos in the culture and the idea that this. 15:56.65 archaeoteacup Ah, ah. 16:02.32 Aaron I Can't remember who this was I apologize. But the idea that they were floating was sort of this idea of like you know again, we anthropomorphize the Earth right is is the Earth mother. It's the Earth being and so the things that you are marking onto the Earth You are also then marking onto the body of people. 16:08.57 archaeoteacup Right? and. 16:14.90 archaeoteacup Amazing I mean it could also almost be like a little a not C V What is it portfolio you know as well like oh look So these are my designs. Its it's like the original tattoo studio you go. That's what the caves were you go into the cave right? Yeah yeah. 16:19.79 Aaron Yeah, yeah, right right? Well is going to say Danny a year from now will hang up his flash in a french cave and I yeah yes. 16:31.82 archaeoteacup Yeah, Danny's designs were being used as as he's now being inspired again that would be hilarious if the if the if the different caves laskoww and and everything you know we're actually just some tattoo artists sitting like going? Yeah well these are my options are you on the bison. Yes, sure I can do the but yeah. 16:40.86 Aaron But I right I'm I'm I mostly do rhinocerosess and birds. Yeah, he's. 16:51.28 archaeoteacup But that guy does the lions you want to go to that cave. He'll do the lion for you I mean I like that idea of sort of practicing it first on the earth and then then being on all vice versa I suppose it could have been vice. Versa. Let me practice on. My own body first before I you know carve it into mother nature or carve it from mother earth but no, that's really interesting and you've already mentioned it a little bit but I thought it would be interesting to talk a bit more about who does that tattooing because um I remember I had you and Maya C look on the. 17:05.98 Aaron Sure sure yeah. 17:21.54 archaeoteacup Ah, exoc show another podcast that I do and we chattted about tattooing and she was talking about. Of course theuit tradition of tattooing which is mainly done by women for example and it's sort of 1 of these things a bit like you were saying earlier and that you have to you had to kind of earn it from the from the community. It wasn't necessarily something that you. Kind of selfishly got to do yourself if that makes sense. Um, but so ah and you mentioned earlier that you think it might have been more the maybe the the shamans or the the sort of ceremonial figures I guess in the community who would have been doing it rather than just everyone is there kind of a reason for your your thinking about that or what to what to. 17:56.63 Aaron Yeah, well I think that that is is largely based on historical analogy and that is that is a thing that we see throughout the pre-modern world where we have you know, reliable historical accounts is that. 17:58.36 archaeoteacup Ideas. Do you have about that panel. Okay. Move. 18:12.96 Aaron People doing the tattooing held a special status and that wasn't always you know quote unquote ritual status. Um, you know they might have been itinerant tattooists traveling from village to village. But it was not just something that was done. You know by your mom or by anybody you know by your buddies in the basement. Um. 18:27.61 archaeoteacup Um. 18:29.55 Aaron It was It was something that that there was this whole framework around and you know it's It's really hard to talk about you know, ritual in the past right? because some of it may be related to cosmology or to how you view the world or how you see spirits. But some of it. Maybe just related to Health concerns. Um, you know tattooing involves the the piercing of the skin the letting of blood it. It is a process in which you are open to infection right? This is a high risk sort of behavior and so. 18:50.80 archaeoteacup Ah, this is. 18:52.33 archaeoteacup Oh. 18:58.46 archaeoteacup Right? hover. 19:03.68 Aaron I Think that part of why it tends to be done by specialists is because these are people who are versed in the taboos and the traditions and you know some of those taboos may be purely social right? You don't eat this animal while you're giving the tattoos but others of them about you know what happens afterwards and how the tattoos are treated. 19:08.60 archaeoteacup Are. 19:22.71 Aaron And you know this kind of thing relate to to health and to healing and to these ideas of of helping a person get through this process. 19:31.13 archaeoteacup Oh yeah, which yeah relates to a lot of other I guess kind of folklore and and things in different parts of the world and in different time periods as well right is that kind of a lot of the superstitions and all of the the kind of myths and legend and everything are actually indeed just related to be like ah yes, and after you have done this you have to? ah. Drink the water of a moonbeam for three litres every day because it is sort of like well yeah, you need to hydrate you know, basically and so I suppose yeah. 19:48.76 Aaron Um, right, excuse me? Well yeah, and and and in my mind too. This is why I think that a lot of tattooing traditions historically are connected to rites of passage. Um, you know if you were just kind of kind of wave your hand across the globe many many many maybe most traditions are related to ideas like coming of age or becoming an adult or you know transitioning from the and uninitiated to the initiated right? This is this sort of. 20:15.40 archaeoteacup Um, I move. Yeah. 20:21.71 Aaron It's this limital process where you come out the other side and you've got marks on your body that show the world that you are now this other thing and you're with right right? and that that yeah, that and that may be that you're an adult right? It can be simple as like oh they're an adult. 20:30.34 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, and I guess remind yourself as well that you are other because it's literally on your body. Yeah. 20:39.61 Aaron Or it may be oh they're ah you know a marked warrior They you know they have access to these other things. Whatever but you know these rites of passage which again you know there's a lot of a lot of issues surrounding those sorts of events that you know they're supposed to be painful. They're supposed to be difficult but you're also supposed to live through them. 20:40.47 archaeoteacup Those. 20:58.94 archaeoteacup Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 20:59.15 Aaron And so that people the people that are administering them are you know our healers are um, you know wise women wise people that are familiar with these processes and can can sort of help usher you through it right. 21:05.50 archaeoteacup They will. Oh no, a very reasonable I would say yeah sounds good to me, you've convinced me so we're going to take another quick break Now. So that those listening can have an opportunity to top up their tea but we will be back soon. 21:22.29 Aaron Sounds good.