00:01.47 archaeoteacup Welcome back Everyone I hope that the teacups are fuller and the biscuit jar emptier. So ah, thank you so much for telling us a bit more about the the bigot tapestry which indeed sounds like it's sort of famous just because it happened to survive which is sort of been I Guess inevitable for so many. 00:13.31 Alex Yeah. 00:16.88 archaeoteacup Historic documents as well. You wonder how much how much is missing out there and I am actually curious. We sort of had mentioned it a few times throughout and I think it would be interesting to talk about this is our first the first of this podcast which is dealt I guess with more historic artifact rather than prehistoric artifact. Um, and I'm curious as ah as a textile. Archaeologist as well. Obviously you have specialized in more historic periods. But what is your kind of experience of historic textile archaeology versus prehistoric is it does it hinder the research to have all of this extra information does it make it more difficult does it make it easier. What would you say. 00:53.33 Alex Um, well I'm slightly by it. Well now I'm very biased because I love my period and I and um I would only step out of it really? Ah, if push came to Shove. Um, but for me I'm quite. Interdisciplinary in my approach to my work. So I Love the fact that you have all this art historical documentary evidence and all these other um sources that I can go to to to try and create a really full and rounded picture. Um, and for me as Well. It's not just about technical attributes and telling the story an object biography story but it's um, it's about being able to use that then to explore and enhance the story of the societies in which they were used and I know people from other periods do that as Well. But. Me The fact that you have all this other evidence helps in that. Um and I I mean I know people who study prehistoric textiles and the information that they're able to gather from those textiles. Um, and that. Sites where they're found I Hesitate to say excavation sites because sometimes it's not um I think it's amazing. But I just think eek as well because they haven't got any any other um, any other sources in which to and either backup. 02:08.56 archaeoteacup This is. 02:22.42 Alex What they're saying or to to help expand the stories that they're telling. Um, so yeah, yeah. 02:27.23 archaeoteacup Ah, the I woulds I would argue the other way as a prehistorian like to me, it's really scary to have all of these extra levels of of interpretation that you have to go through because I mean as you mentioned before as well. Obviously the bayo tapestry. you you said oh people see it as a historic document that tells 1 truth or you know thing. But obviously it doesn't and I mean I guess that's the case with all other forms of historic documentation and I know now I'm just talking about obviously all historians have training in this and are able to work through the bias but to me that's the main that's almost scarier to to have to kind of. 02:46.50 Alex Are ah. 03:01.20 archaeoteacup You're not just working through your own bias when you're interpreting the past you're also having to think how but why did they write this or why did they? they do this but I suppose that's something that's second nature to you now. 03:06.39 Alex But but and something that I find really interesting and exciting as well is the fact that why are you writing this? What exactly are you trying to say and and then I can say oh you were wrong or yes, yeah you you know you were I don't know it's all part of that whole. I Suppose it's like a very complex detective story really and I Just yeah, that's one of the things that I I really like about it I mean I do have to sometimes put the brakes on and say no I don't think maybe we're saying metallics I think that's your that's you reading too much into it. Yeah, sometimes if you get. If I get excited about something I have to kind of re myself in um, but yeah, it's funny isn't it. How people who specialize in different periods can look at the other period go book as Well. Ah, yeah, exactly Yeah, but yes, that's True. Yes. 03:52.74 archaeoteacup Oh my God Well luckily there are enough of both sorts that we can spread ourselves out throughout all of the periods which is useful and because obviously then you do indeed specialize in more historic periods early medieval. Um. 04:00.62 Alex You. 04:08.10 archaeoteacup But when do you know when for example, the first embroidery might have been. What is the kind of earliest physical evidence that we have for something that could be interpreted I guess as embroidery. 04:19.65 Alex Um I don't know exactly but Umbroidery does go way back into the Missipp Prehistory. So um, it has a very long tradition. Um, and from the early Medieval period itself. Um I mean I suppose the earliest piece could be. Um, decorate a decoratively functional piece so it was actually it was holding a tablet woven band to a textile and that was found on a childhood from Akney and ah I Just love the fact that the the the possible earliest piece from up my period could be this childhood. 04:47.85 archaeoteacup Oh okay. 04:57.31 Alex Um, so and that that stitch is it's a form of what we call loop stitch but it uses 3 different threads being worked at the same time. So it's a very complex stitch so it shows that by the early medieval period um embroidery had. 04:57.51 archaeoteacup Um, is. 05:16.36 Alex That it might not be pictorial but it had developed in a form that was very complex and that people understood in detail The how to use fibers and materials and to create these beautiful objects as well and I love that it's such a long tradition. 05:29.78 archaeoteacup Um, and I guess what's interesting I mean I never really thought about it before but of course sewing's been going on for you know how many thousands of years we assume based on the evidence of needles. But that's more of ah you know for want of a better word. 05:41.83 Alex Um, yeah. 05:47.78 Alex Um, yeah. 05:48.27 archaeoteacup Practical I Guess you know a way to create bits of clothing so it sort of fulfills a practical need for survival but something like embroidery is more is I Actually don't know the official definition of embroidery but is it always something that's more decorative or more. Ah. Kind of do you know what? I mean what I'm trying to say with this. 06:06.50 Alex Yeah, yeah, yeah, no I know what you mean and as I was as you was saying that I was thinking Oh gosh it's though there aren't different. There were different um Understandings Ofbo particularly if depending on the period that you you study I mean so for me in the early medieval period embroidery. 06:19.13 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 06:24.31 Alex Um, it starts off as what I would call as I said earlier decoratively functional. So it's doing a functional holding protecting of seams. Ah, ah, joining them together or Hems etc etc. But it's decorating them at the same time. So it's. 06:30.39 archaeoteacup Um, other. 06:37.92 archaeoteacup So it's not just doing a simple stitch. It's doing like a a nice fancy stitch. 06:42.72 Alex Yeah, it's adding that extra. It's adding that extra layer on that you didn't need to add. But but it's human nature to be surrounded by Beauty whether natural or created and and forms of art artistry and this shows it in in. 06:47.75 archaeoteacup Ah, ah. 07:01.34 Alex Was going to say very simple but it's not very simple terms but it shows it even in small areas that people wanted to do this So you have that and then you you move up to um towards the end of the period where um. People are telling stories through it and it it can be more pictorial. It can be.. It can be simple or elaborate but it's decorating objects or it like the bare Tapestry. It's purely. Um, there's no functionality in it. 07:17.63 archaeoteacup I move. 07:35.50 Alex Ah, such I mean yes, it could be used to Decorat to decorate and exclude drafts and that but it's it's yeah, it's main its main reason is decorative and to tell certain stories and things like that. That's a very rubbish answer sorry. 07:39.40 archaeoteacup Um, got a yeah and insulate. Yeah. 07:47.62 archaeoteacup Her Which yes I just say it's almost like a no no but I'd like it. It's almost like ah you know you can see it progress I guess from sort of Cave paintings to then which may you know maybe initially there was some theory I read somewhere the the very very earliest. Cave Paintings might have been way markers so it was more of a yes, it was decoration but it also served a practical function and then kind of potentially just developed into something that was purely aesthetic and I guess it's sort of similar in terms of the embroidery. 08:06.50 Alex Yes. 08:13.70 Alex Yes, you've just answered the questions so much better than I have but. 08:18.26 archaeoteacup But I just summarized what you said in a beautiful way I did the boring answer but no, but that's ah yeah, it's really fascinating. It would be so interesting indeed to see how far back it goes then and mean there's there's so decorative decoration and beads and all of that kind of stuff I suppose. 08:21.64 Alex But yeah. 08:32.54 Alex Um, yes. 08:36.18 archaeoteacup Beads being sent on to clothing is already quite far back I suppose that could be the the sort of precursor maybe to the embroidery or something like that and um in terms of sort of the the material culture that you have from embroidery. Obviously you have the the tapestries themselves. Um, but as you said they don't always. 08:40.10 Alex Possibly? Yes, yeah. 08:54.33 archaeoteacup Survive but do you have for example, specialized embroidery needles or other kind of materials that you could look at and say ah well they were doing embroidery at this site or whatever. Even if we don't have the actual embroidery left. 09:08.67 Alex Um, so I wouldn't say um, specialist needles as perhaps we would know them today but you do find um, beautiful needles ah particularly in viking contexts actually um, where they are um, held in needle cases. 09:24.55 archaeoteacup Oh. 09:26.53 Alex And they're they're often found in female sometimes child burials ah attached to the girdle or but the belt of um, the deceased and um, they I mean the ones I like the most are they're they're in these needle cases but they've been placed. Into bits of fabric as well and then the fabric with the needles have been placed into these needle cases and I just love that because it's so tangible isn't it. Um, and so and some of these needles are very fine and could I would argue it Green news be the very fine functional work or embroidery work. 09:50.64 archaeoteacup Um, the isn't yeah ah. 10:06.40 Alex Um, and then at the other end of the scale you get these um objects that are possibly needles I would argue that they probably are needles but they're they're really big. Ah both I say big in the dot like houses. But the the big needle turns. But um, and yeah, yes. 10:19.85 archaeoteacup Yes, but bulkier to holes and the handle as suppose. Yes, yes, okay. 10:25.53 Alex And and they they were perhaps perhaps used for um I do things like fishing nets or um, framing up embroideries and this kind of this kind of work more course work so you do get a gradiation in needles. But whether you can say they're specialized for silk work and gold work. 10:31.15 archaeoteacup Okay. 10:44.44 Alex Compared to being used for lots of different things is more difficult to say we need more research. 10:44.68 archaeoteacup Okay, and I suppose things like the frames and stuff are also usually organic or wood so they might not also necessarily survive as well or okay, okay, interesting. 10:57.72 Alex Here there were no embroidery frames from the period side. That's yeah, yeah, um, so the I've argued that um, there's an image of ah, a man. Who most people say he's weaving but I've argued. He's actually embroidering and this is from a byzantine context. Um, and if you look at him and compare it to images of people embroidering that hit the way he sat is very similar to that. But also the context it some from the byzantine. Oh a. Exetuke I think no, that might be the wrong thing but it's from x it's from exodus and and um, he it's around the creation. It's setting around the creation of the temple and so it's talking about not only weaving things to deck to hanging the cloths. 11:36.88 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 11:50.42 Alex Hanging in the temple but it's also talking about embroidering and decorating textiles as well. Um, so that dates to um towards the end of our period. So I've argued that that's the earliest image really that we have but there's no um, hard evidence. 11:51.81 archaeoteacup Oh then. 12:05.16 archaeoteacup Okay, well interesting and you sort of we've mentioned a couple of times so that it was sort of assumed that the women were the ones doing the embroidery.. Although you mentioned in some European countries. It may have been men and you but just mentioned a man doing embroidery then in terms of kind of professional in. Professional embroidery now I mean I'm just thinking of something like cooking which you know everyone this sort of classic stereotype. Everyone's like oh woman's place is in the kitchen you know and and it's sort of assumed that you know if you're a cook you're you're a woman but the chefs you know the best chefs were only allowed to be men or you know all this kind of thing is it similar. 12:31.72 Alex Um, yeah. 12:34.98 Alex Yes, yes, yes. 12:41.26 archaeoteacup With embroidery is that something that it's sort of oh yes, it's women's work. But if you want to be really professional. You're more like you know the men are the most likely to get it or is that completely different. Okay. 12:52.90 Alex Um, ah so it's different. Um, yeah, so this I mean the problem we have with embroidery is the fact that at the renaissance there was this divide between what was plus what we would now class as a higher art and crafts. 13:09.00 archaeoteacup Um, okay. 13:09.10 Alex Whereas pre and and a lot of things to do with embroidery also have this have um well been linked to feminism and and development of that as well. Um, but pre the renaissance um the Embroji. The evidence shows that embroidery was cast as a high art form. Um and the evidence for the only medieval period in Britain. What's now the british isos is that embroidery was a female role. Um, and. 13:32.11 archaeoteacup Ah. 13:45.11 Alex But in byzantium and the islamic world we have evidence that actually men were professional embroideries during the same period. So I find that quite interesting um in in the British isles and within Mainland Europe as well. You have um with the development of the guilds and and this. 13:51.87 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, yeah. 14:02.40 archaeoteacup Are those. 14:04.98 Alex And the so-called professionalization of of these craft arts and crafts men then begin to be seen in the record as well and particularly during the later medieval period you you do get a lot more men involved in embroidery and they're also being paid more as well. 14:21.95 archaeoteacup Of course ah classic here. 14:22.98 Alex So yeah, you know it carries on all the way down the sanches. Um, ah so yeah, and then with the renaissance with this divide ah embroidery then becomes you still get men and women but you embroidery is now becoming more of. 14:39.46 archaeoteacup Okay. 14:39.75 Alex Considered more of a craft form rather than an art form and then you get this? Yeah this this development into its women's work. It's and a legly thing you do it at home. You still get the professionals obviously. But um, yeah, that's yeah, a brief synopsis. 14:50.94 archaeoteacup Ah, yeah, no, no, no, it's I was just I was genuinely really curious. I was also curious and but you also sort of mentioned that slightly the beginning that there is there is kind of still work for professional embroiderers ah nowadays because especially because as you say it might be considered more craft than high art since that. Period So I was curious whether it was something that is necessarily not easy to find work in but you know whether there is enough regular work to have to have that as your specialism. 15:18.44 Alex Um, yes I mean I've got I've got lots of friends who are professional embroideers and um, so and they tend to do a lot of I say that they tend to be multi-stranded so they'll take on commissions. They perhaps produce kits and they teach workshops. 15:22.77 archaeoteacup Okay. 15:37.41 Alex And things like that. So it's not just about sitting at your frame and and boying. It's that multifaceteded side and um particularly if you are um, working at the top end of the scale. Um, perhaps ah you would be working for. Um. 15:37.49 archaeoteacup Um, yes, yes. 15:56.85 Alex Cature um designers and things as well. So so there's lots of different levels I mean and um and you can get people who just who write books produce designs for books and things like that as well. So there's lots. There's lots of different levels for people. 15:58.22 archaeoteacup Um, right, of course. Yeah. 16:15.64 Alex Working in professional embroidery. 16:16.90 archaeoteacup Yeah, and you mentioned ah sort of commissions and and kits and things. So I think I saw on your socials that you're doing and currently working on sort of a replica of part of the the bayo tapestry as a kind of ah a project that you're doing how how did that start? What what made you want to. 16:29.99 Alex I am yes um so it's funny I was it stuck over the discussion with my husband and um and I was just saying to him I know Yeah, exactly yeah I. 16:34.35 archaeoteacup Do that. 16:39.71 archaeoteacup The men in your life are just taking you back to the Bay of tapestries. 16:47.90 Alex Yeah, so I've been really lucky in that I've had access to um, high digital images of the back of the tapestry and I've been had been given access to take microscopic images of the tapestry itself. Um, and so I've been able to do um. 16:59.80 archaeoteacup Ah, cool. 17:03.65 Alex Research on the technical aspects of it which is something that's not been explored. Um, really at all before and um and I've been able to produce research papers on that side of things. But there's part of me as an as an embroider who's always thinking. 17:22.94 Alex This is the evidence that you see in the final result. But how did that final result occur What were the I'm really interested in what the thought processes were of the people who were made who were stitching and why they made decisions that they did and also. 17:30.27 archaeoteacup Um, and. 17:37.10 archaeoteacup F. 17:42.89 Alex Whether they are stitching sort of what what they thought about. But what was innate on what what just happened because of experience and things like that. It's all and so. 17:54.97 archaeoteacup Um, this. 17:57.53 Alex The only way really of getting to grips with that is by actually producing um a Replica a recreation um of it but using authentic materials because I think we all know um that if you use modern materials. The experience isn't the same. As using authentic ones. So So that was one of the reasons and the other reason was um also to look at the interplay between how different sections were worked and why they were worked and the ways they were um and to to kind of back up What I've observed. 18:17.44 archaeoteacup Um, the the. 18:35.25 Alex Through my research with this practical project as well. 18:40.35 archaeoteacup Yeah, no, I'm really excited to ah to see I think your your documenting it through your socials is there? Yes, no no yeah yeah. 18:43.80 Alex I am for my sins. Yes, so it's on my Youtube channel which is quite scary because um, it's oh it's also people understand what I'm doing and say people can say I want to. Like that but that and I mean that's happened with the ra video that I've put up and I'm like oh yeah, and do you know what? you're totally right? Why did I do it like that and it's so it's quite scary but everyone's been lovely about it. So it's fine. But yeah, so. 19:14.78 archaeoteacup Well and like you say it's showing an option right? It's showing the the different ways that it's happening. Yeah well I'll make sure to to put a link to that in in your thing um are there any other exciting projects that are coming up or any other things that you would like to share with those listening in who might be interested in. 19:17.53 Alex Exactly Yes, yeah of thank you. 19:31.77 Alex Um. 19:32.13 archaeoteacup Starting a career in embroidery or getting started in that. 19:34.42 Alex Um, Well if people are interested in getting started the embroidery.. There are so many different options it depends what kind of route you want to go down really so you've got the traditional which is like the ah Rsd or you can go down through University courses and and and things like that. Um, which give you different options. Um. I Think the the thing for doing something like I've done. You're combining both the history, the history and the academic scholarship with with the practical skills as well. So you you would have to do a practical and then your your academic so studies and combine them Both. Um. So There are different options there for depending what people want to do um, exciting projects and so my work at Glascow Um is um is ongoing but that will be finishing soon and then I'm looking at developing more um kits um, workshops and things like that for um. But after that and there's also some um research ideas that are being the curdling away in my head but I don't want to talk about any of those just yet so you'll just have to keep an eye out on social media. She says Plug plug The what comes up. 20:38.60 archaeoteacup The. 20:43.93 archaeoteacup No yes, no definitely well and we'll make sure to share things and the the kits and and things like that are all on your website I believe as well. Yeah, perfect. 20:55.29 Alex Yes, yes, they are yeah and um, if if people want something that's not on there then please email me contact me I might take a while to reply because I'm not always up to my eyeballs but I will reply eventually she says. 21:08.31 archaeoteacup Great. Well thank you? So so much for joining me today. Alex I chat about all these things that marks the end of our t break. It sounds like you've got a lot to prepare so I will let you get back to work. But yeah, thank you so much. This was really great to to chat to you about. 21:18.74 Alex Um, thank you? Oh no, Well thank you I've really enjoyed it. 21:25.38 archaeoteacup And as we just mentioned if anyone wants to find out more about Alex's work or the kits or the workshops that she'll be offering um or anything about the boo tapestry as well. Do check the show notes on the podcast homepage I'll be putting all of the links in there I hope that everyone enjoyed our journey today. 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