00:00.00 archaeoteacup Hello and welcome to episode 18 of t break time travel I am your host Matilda Zebrecht and today I'm s savoring a winter almond tea because even though it was ridiculously warm the last month or 2 it's suddenly decided that it's winter at least with us I don't know how tis with you. Um, and joining me on my teabreak today is professional embroideerer Dr Alexandra Mac Mackkin Markin I realized I forgot to ask you how to pronounce your name make making that is a great name for a creative person. Sorry. 00:24.26 Alex Make him. But. 00:33.25 archaeoteacup That's fantastic I'm sorry I'm sure you've heard that so many times before. 00:36.65 Alex Ah, a couple of times I should tell my husband's family. But. 00:41.24 archaeoteacup Ah, and are you also on t today. Ah Alex. 00:43.99 Alex I am I'm on a fair trade. Um english breakfast today I under know whether to go for saone or not but are plumped for english breakfast. 00:51.86 archaeoteacup English breakfast and are you a classic ah British English breakfast with milk or black. Okay, interesting. Okay, yeah though I I was ah well I've said this already on this podcast I was always given slack by my English relatives when they said what you just wanted. 00:54.80 Alex Oh no, no milk in any tea whatsoever. No yeah. 01:09.79 archaeoteacup Black with sugar. No yeah, yeah, but now I have it with with milk. So. 01:14.38 Alex Ah, no or I yeah I am a bit of an old ball in that sense. It goes back to my parents. Um, for one Len we gave up sugar from tea and never went back and for another lent we gave up milk from tea and they went back to milk but I just. 01:28.11 archaeoteacup Interesting. Oh but do you have milk in other things still or you milk free now. 01:28.26 Alex Couldn after that So yet black tea ever since? Yeah, no I I'm fairly milkf free if I'm being honest, yeah ah chop. Um, no I. 01:38.26 archaeoteacup Okay, also like chocolate and stuff or just the raw milk. 01:46.20 Alex Occasionally I'll have chocolate but I'm more of a crisps person than chocolate. Yeah yeah, definitely yeah. 01:49.24 archaeoteacup Um, oh interesting more savory safery than sweet just well thank you for so much for joining me. Um, and as I mentioned at the beginning Alexandra is a professional embroideerer. 02:04.00 archaeoteacup And also specializes in textile archaeology but did you um also do archaeological training of some kind or have you sort of gone into it from the embroidery route. 02:12.65 Alex Um, so oh it's a bit of a long- windded story I shall cut it down. Um, okay, but and I don't don't want to put people to sleep i' need a really strong tea for that and Assan Maybe after that. Ah, ah so. 02:18.74 archaeoteacup That's fine. We've got plenty of time on this podcast. 02:30.61 Alex In the yeah uk a lot of people after doing their gcses will go on and do a levels and and that's what I did and then after that I went down to the raw school of needwork and did what was then called their three-year apprenticeship that no longer exists anymore. It's a different scheme. Um, but and I left that. And um I was thinking I never want to embroider again I never want to look at an embroidery again and that went well and um and my other love was archeology and so I decided at that point. Do an undergraduate degree in um, archaeology so I moved from London all the way up to the amazing newcastle upon time and did my archaeology degree up there. 03:13.64 archaeoteacup Okay, ah, but so it was I'm fascinated that they still had indeed needlework apprenticeships like and did they I mean you said that that one's still not running but did they did those sort of things still exist nowadays. 03:23.78 Alex Um, well the Royal school of Needle works friendship and was unique really and that was one of the things that drew me to it. It was very different to the type of training that was going on in University systems. 03:29.40 archaeoteacup Oh. 03:38.72 Alex Know where you do your foundation course and then you do go into fashion or something along those lines and where you could specialize in embroidery and this was much more traditional unlearning those traditional techniques with a background of the history to them as Well. So and that's what um. I enjoyed about and what why I wanted to go in and down there and do that that course and because of course it's combining that history side of it. Um, so that course um I mean that ran for decades and decades. But then it. 04:04.86 archaeoteacup So. 04:15.96 Alex Morphed now and it's now called um, the future I think it's called the future teachers course it's still three years I'm not sure. Um, how different it is to the apprenticeship but it's still running in in that form now. Um it. They were just they took on very few apprentices each year and so you had not 1 to 1 tu tutoring but it was you had a good ratio and it was a very in-depth tutoring to and bring you to a standard where you could um. 04:40.83 archaeoteacup In. 04:48.59 Alex Perhaps be for example recently some of of the older princes have been called back to create the coronation verbes and things like that. So it it was that that was the point of it. 04:53.92 archaeoteacup Well Okay, so sort of really a true sort of traditional making specialist experts, professional embroideder as well. Okay, interesting and when you started your archeology degree I Mean you said you never wanted to embroideer again. So at what point did you decide. 05:01.75 Alex Yeah, yeah. 05:13.24 archaeoteacup Okay, fine I'll go back to embroidery right. 05:15.98 Alex Ah, um, well that that was my brother's fault actually so a while at whilst I was in Newcastle he was studying his degree in history at Durham and I had a car so we would meet up and would go out to visit placess because those of you may not know and. Ah, by cart at that time we're talking back in the 90 s here. Um it was 20 minutes down the a one between newcast and Durham um, and one day we decided to visit duham cathedral and they had on display there. Um, the the stole the manople and. Ribbons sometimes called a girdle still ah that were discovered in and the Tim Saint Cuthbert um I was just blown away by them and because on the apprenticeship we went back to Opa Sannglikana and um. I'd never really thought about well what happened before then you know people didn't just wake up in the Twelfth Century and go or thirteenth century. Sorry yeah, that's simple and look how amazing we are doing this gold war with all these complicated patterns and things and wow we're great at design too and I hope but. 06:11.71 archaeoteacup Um, let's embroider. Yeah wow. 06:22.28 Alex And then seeing these um these pieces from toours say cuthbert so they were we think they were created around ah nine Ten Ce and I was just thought oh my goodness. That's absolutely yeah I was just blew my mind that the skill the level of skill and the. 06:35.47 archaeoteacup Who. 06:40.31 Alex The technique the detail the design the use of materials. It was I thought yeah this came before op anglocaran and and at that time there was such a big fuss about aycaran and I was like but this is really important and interesting and actually much more exciting because. Very few if anybody had really studied preopra Sana Carnum in detail and I can remember pressing my nose against the glass and leaving these marks all over the display because I'm sorry um, you know as I was trying to get closer and closer to these pieces to see them in this dim light. Um. 07:17.75 archaeoteacup Ah, um. 07:18.50 Alex And that was it then I was off I was back to the embroidery but particularly from that period. 07:24.50 archaeoteacup Ah, but it's great that you that you did manage to combine both things and then it wasn't that you know the 3 I mean I wouldn't say the 3 years had been wasted anyway. But you know it's nice that you could use something that you had so much training in already like you didn't have to relearn which is great I think but. 07:34.48 Alex Yes, yes yeah. 07:41.29 archaeoteacup And as as of course today we are traveling back in time I have to ask all of my guests if you could travel back in time to a point where would you go and why. 07:46.59 Alex Um. 07:49.62 Alex Um, well when we first um, emailed me about the podcasting. You said you might ask me this question I'd be racking my brains because obviously people would expect them to say the the early medieval period. Um, but I don't I don't think I would um I think I'm quite. Happy here and um I suppose it's a 2 prong dancer. So first of all, if I was going back in time and people could see me and I might be able to I did it fall over and break an arm or a leg There would be no and a chess or and or no dental cat or anything like that and I know. 08:24.79 archaeoteacup Ah, no, you're thinking too practically. Yeah. 08:28.11 Alex This is me there So therefore I wouldn't want to go back in time. But if I was if I was ah just going back in time and being like a fly on the wall and investigating then obviously it would be the early medieval period and obviously I would be looking at embroidery and um, how people will. 08:37.38 archaeoteacup Um, ah. 08:46.98 Alex But not just looking at how the embroiders were creating but I would want to investigate everything where how and where materials were coming from why people were commissioning what they were the meanings and behind behind their uses and and all of all of it be. They. 08:50.75 archaeoteacup It. 09:05.29 Alex So yeah, so not thinking too practically. It's an obvious answer that I'm giving really. 09:10.38 archaeoteacup Um, fair enough fair enough. Well you'll be happy today. Um, because ah before we chat a bit more about today's object we're going to journey back in time and this month we're taking a much shorter trip than usual. Because we're only going back to ten seventy seven a d which this is a date that I might have to discuss with you in a moment because it might even be too early or too late, but we shall get there um to a thick walled castle nestled amongst the rolling hills of Kent England inside 1 of the outer rooms. There are several expanses of woven cloth piled onto the floor. 09:27.11 Alex Um, yeah. 09:39.63 archaeoteacup 1 panel of this cloth is fixed into 3 very wide frames running alongside the few windows of the room at these frames sit several women, their heads bent over their work needles flashing in the sunlight as they pull brightly colored thread through the tightly stretched cloth an occasional chuckle punctuates the soft murmur of conversation. Then at one point one of the women nudges her neighbor and points at the scene in front of her gesturing at a part that she's just finished the 2 of them break into peals of laughter and the others all peer over to see what the source of the joke giggling and snorting as they look at the freshly embroidered scene now. Was inspired by this time travel thing by a previous podcast that I actually did with Alex um, which was ah done for through the ex arc show and where we mentioned very briefly the Vao tapestry and you mentioned that there were some kind of funny scenes that had been included potentially by the by the seamstresses I think it was that anyway if not, it's fine. Um, it's it's a little. 10:19.24 Alex Um, yeah. 10:33.34 archaeoteacup A little fictional journey. So today we are looking at the bayo I think I'm saying it correctly the bayo tapestry bayer ba ba tapestry. Um, and so we'll get into the details soon. But first as always let's have a very quick look at some of the most asked questions on the internet. 10:39.53 Alex Bayer They are. 10:49.17 archaeoteacup Courtesy of Google search autofill which I was expecting to not have that many but actually there were loads so we might not get through them all. Um and we'll have to pop some into the next section. Um and make it part of the discussion. Um, the first one. Ah quite simple is ah what? what is the bio tapestry. Be ah tapestry what does the bayo tapestry. 10:54.44 Alex Um, oh yeah, yeah yeah. 11:07.52 archaeoteacup Depict. 11:09.61 Alex Um, so I suppose in simple terms it depicts the downfall of the um english as they had come to see themselves at the hands of the normans but it's it's more complicated than that it it shows. Um. Really think of it as a cartoon so you're seeing the main snippets of the story in pictorial form and it shows the end of Edward the confessor this great um english anglo-saxon English King um as he comes to the end of his reign. And it's about the transition of power so he had no um children and so therefore um, his descendants um were fighting I suppose politically fighting over who would be more likely to take over as king. And there was this powerful family of whom Harold was um son and he um they were at the foremost for becoming the next he was at the foremost for becoming the next rule in monarch um, and. In the bay tapestry and documentary evidence suggests this as well that and Edward the confessor did say to him you I want you to reign after me. Um, however, at that time um england was. 12:37.93 Alex Apparently one of the most organized one of the most prosperous kingdoms or countries. Um within what we would now call Europe and obviously it had the envious eyes of people looking over from the channel one. Ah yeah, yeah. 12:45.87 archaeoteacup I. Ah, the days if only so learn and know. Let's go back to the the eleventh century. 12:57.75 Alex Ah, yeah, we werent good tomorrow. Ah yeah. 13:01.85 Alex Um, and of one of those was ah William William the conquerors he became known to to was over here and but he was um, ah King I suppose he was well he not king he was duke of Normandy and um, he had a. Ah, family link through the maternal side and so he could tenuously claim that he had a right to the english throne as well and obviously because of all the um. When organized we were how rich and prosperous the country was um, he he wanted the country. Um, yeah, so um, it so there's all of this political shenanikins and backgrounds and maneuvers going on and in in the background. Um, and. 13:41.23 archaeoteacup Fat. Yeah. 13:56.80 Alex On the bed tapestry itself which then shows harold going across to to Normandy he gets captured and he ends up going to um, cutting this down quite a lot. He ends up going to William's court and um. He and he goes on campaigns with them and in the end he according to the tapestry he and um, some documentary evidence. Um, he swears an allegiance to William and there and therefore. Um, William. It can use that to help him claim the english throne so he's saying actually Harold's actually saying no, you should be king of england and he swears that on relics which um. 14:39.32 archaeoteacup Um. 14:48.60 Alex It's kind of like us going to court today and putting our hand on the bible and swearing our oath. It's the so it's the same sort of thing. Um obviously Harold eventually gets back to England and um Edward dies and haroldd becomes king. 14:52.64 archaeoteacup Um, okay yeah. 15:08.36 Alex And saying no I didn't really say but but you could become king what are you talking about? Yeah, exactly exactly? Yeah, so William obviously is incensed by this and um, he gets he gets the pope on side. Um, and um. 15:11.75 archaeoteacup Fake News fake news. 15:18.26 archaeoteacup As you would be. Yeah. 15:27.91 Alex In the meantime there are people there are Kings from scandinavia who are like no we should be king of England and so you get them attacking in the north so harold and his armies have to go north to fight them in the meantime William is getting his um his armies ready and they sail down to the south of England. 15:33.70 archaeoteacup Ah. 15:47.78 Alex And um, so harold and his army have to March after this battle march all the way down to the south of england so they're exhausted I just can't imagine how they would feel after all of that. Um and engage in battle at the famous battle of hastings and they obviously they lose. 15:57.78 archaeoteacup Um, right? yeah. 16:07.60 Alex Um, and then the end of the hanging is missing but people assume that it would have finished with William being crown king of England I've missed that lots of little nuances and and little stories about um the pillaging and burning of crops and and houses and things so it's. 16:24.30 archaeoteacup Office. 16:27.47 Alex It's telling this story this very complicated story from a particular point of view. 16:31.50 archaeoteacup Okay, that's really fascinating I mean how long is it then because that's a long story to to tell. 16:38.20 Alex If it's a long story. Yes, and um, so the surviving tapestry comes in at just over sixty three meters but obviously like I said there's that piece missing at the end and we don't really know how long that would have been. 16:45.38 archaeoteacup Um, Wow Yeah, okay, and and who made it or who who commissioned it I suppose. 16:57.90 Alex We don't have firm evidence for who commissioned it the um, the overriding consensus is that it was probably someone like Bishop Odo who was half brother to Duke William and um. 17:11.80 archaeoteacup Rise again. 17:14.54 Alex Ah, very powerful individual. Um, but so different scholars have come up with other people. Um and the but the evidence for those other people is even less than it is for Odo and I suppose one of the supporting arguments for Odo is the fact that. 17:27.24 archaeoteacup Right. 17:33.32 Alex He appears quite prominently in the in the Bay Tapestry and yes, exactly look how great I Am you can imagine if it was him you can imagine him turning up at the the workshop getting no no make me look grander can't yeah yeah, yes. 17:35.91 archaeoteacup In the time she going? Oh what wonderful person this look how handsome he is. Oh wow. 17:47.80 archaeoteacup Like but surely I would say this in this this. Ah. 17:53.80 Alex Yeah, I'm not two foot tall I'm six foot tall yeah and and his name always appears or nearly always appears above his figure. So he's quite prominent. So um, that has one of the reasons why it's led people to suggest that he with the commissioner. 17:59.85 archaeoteacup Ah. 18:07.73 archaeoteacup I see see and that I guess relates to another question which came up on the Google search which I was quite surprised that it came up I put in why bayo tapestry and the first question that came up was why is the bayo tapestry not reliable. 18:23.49 Alex Um, Oh yeah, that's I suppose people um look at the bear tapestry can sometimes think that it's a historical document. Um and take it as literal Fact. Ah. Which you shouldn't really do with any historical document Really, you should always question it? Um, but it tells the story from a certain perspective and um, ah so you have to take into account all the nuances and the propaganda that's involved in that. So There's that side of it. I Think that question could also be referring to the fact that um in the past researchers have wondered and investigated whether depictions of the armor and different elements that you see in it are historically accurate and whether they. 19:15.49 Alex So if someone was on an excavation whether they would find a helmet that looked exactly the same and things like this. So there's there's that link to archaeological objects as to whether they whether it's they're accurately depicted within the tapestry. 19:33.44 archaeoteacup Ah, okay, and that has there been so that was sort of in the early days has there been any further research into that or. 19:40.22 Alex I think most people now um, will agree that so and the designer probably saw these objects and then was able to render them. But whether they are a hundred percent accurate is another question. Um, and it's a difficult one to answer severely. Um and. 20:03.92 archaeoteacup I Mean it's is it like those things you always see those pictures from Medieval times of you know someone and it's the classic meme is like oh draw a hippopotamus you do know what a hippopotamus looks like right? you know Medieval artist Of course. 20:14.80 Alex I yeah. 20:17.81 archaeoteacup I do and it's some you know Bizarre rabbit with a horn on its head or something like. 20:20.50 Alex Ah, yeah I wouldn't I wouldn't say it was as way out as that. Um I'd say it was but it was more accurate than that and people are still doing me do still look at it from that point of view as well. And so ah people sometimes you get articles or chapters and books coming out this. 20:32.52 archaeoteacup Okay. 20:38.73 Alex Because there's so much publish on the Bay Tapestry. So there are they do include chapters in books on it as well and a talk discussing that in in more detail. But um so I think elements of them. You might find certain elements of things that are very similar to what. How it's depicted in the bear tapestry. But whether a whole object would be the same is another question. 20:59.99 archaeoteacup Ok, ok, ok, oh well, very interesting. Well that's ah, that's a very already a very detailed ah answer to the Google's most search questions. This is what happens when you go more historic rather than prehistoric. There's actually you know written evidence that we can use to to answer these questions. Um. 21:15.52 Alex Yes, yeah. 21:19.37 archaeoteacup But let's have a very quick break and we'll be back soon to discuss more.