00:00.00 David Howe What I'm trying to say is Taco Bell has everything is the same thing on the menu just rolled into a different shape and branded as a different thing with different prices and it all makes you sick anyway, welcome to a live producers podcast Carlton take it from here. 00:13.64 alifeinruins Well yes, yes, welcome indeed do life froms podcast episode 1 64 we investigate the careers of those living life ruins I'm your hosts Carlton Gover joined by my co-host Conor John and David Howe just the 3 of us this week we haven't I guess it's been a couple weeks since we've done a. Podcast ah together I guess it's 2 three weeks 00:36.99 David Howe Um, yeah, like less than a month for sure. 00:39.56 Captain Sad Yes, since since we've all been on one. Yeah though was last one that was ah okay, yeah, the burial practices. 00:45.39 David Howe Um, the home of no lady. Yeah, how was's good. 00:50.10 alifeinruins I was a good episode I was listening to that again my way back? Um, or my way to Oklahoma. Um. 00:51.95 Captain Sad Yeah I guess we we should start off by apologizing if you guys had to listen to whatever crap Zancaster published this week for the the show that Carlton and I did together will apologize for that. We have no idea what's going on. Let us know if it's. Better worse. It's actually really funny and we did not fuck up that bad. So. 01:14.48 alifeinruins Yeah, have it a David like a couple weeks to like a week ago too when that episode dropped. 01:19.42 David Howe I listening to yours with Charles Connor like it just kept repeating random things. Yeah and it it seems to be only Apple Chris said so if you guys are listening on Apple Podcasts um did it. 01:22.45 alifeinruins Right. 01:28.20 alifeinruins Happened to me on Spotify yesterday. Yeah, and it was a downloaded episode but it was the same thing it would just cut mid segment and it would like repeat segments like I think the end of segment 2 It just cut me off and then went into an ad but like the latter half of an ad. 01:44.11 David Howe Yeah, happened to me too. 01:46.39 alifeinruins And then it was like really weird. So I don't know what's up with it. So if you guys are listen to this episode and it does that contact us immediately because oftentimes we don't listen to these episodes the day they come out. So if you're having issues listening email us at liferospodcastgmail.com we'll reach out to us on any of our socials and we'll get it over to Chris because this has been happening. 01:52.56 Captain Sad Now we. 01:57.69 David Howe Yeah, um. 02:05.88 alifeinruins Ross um, the archeology the archeology podcast network. 02:08.77 David Howe I just thought Charles talked in circles a lot and I was like damn you already said that then he was great interview by the way it was good. 02:14.64 Captain Sad Now he's like he's he's He's very eloquent and speaks very direct and very yeah only because he was good so it was easy to talk to him and I I see him every day. Yeah, it was fun is fun talking to him. But um. 02:27.10 David Howe Um, min. 02:29.51 Captain Sad You can also send a bunch of hate to Zencastr too if you feel like it. There's nothing wrong I don't know I'm I'm just saying like it. 02:31.24 David Howe Oh they sponsor us So maybe don't do that. 02:35.34 alifeinruins I well until I see a fucking dime from Zencastr you know, fuck them. You know for for that ad campaign they were supposed to. We just get all this money haven't seen it yet. So I mean like you know until I until until our bank account expands. You know do not care. 02:38.19 David Howe Fair. 02:49.58 David Howe As my grandmother would say what can you do. 02:49.97 Captain Sad Ah. 02:54.71 alifeinruins What can you do? What can you do, but that will. 02:57.36 Captain Sad So Carlton you went on. You were gone last week now you when did you leave you were you went on an adventure recently like a like Bilbo running into the the misty mountains. 03:14.99 alifeinruins Yeah I guess you could say that I had an impromptu trip back to ah pawny Oklahoma I was going to go originally for pony nation homecoming I decided against it because I needed to get some work done but then unfortunately my uncle passed away. So I had to I had to go back for the funeral and so because it happened during homecoming a lot of my family. We all just kind of stayed for not only the funeral. Um and the cultural practices surrounding the morning time but then went to. 03:52.52 alifeinruins Stay for for homecoming because like we were all we were all there. So um, we decided to attend. Um so homecoming poe nation homecoming pow wow started in one forty six by my grandfather and a couple other veterans and the whole purpose of homecoming was to. 03:56.81 David Howe What is homecoming. 04:09.97 alifeinruins Every year or around July fourth weekend bring pawnie from across the country for a pawnee specific powow where a bunch of different songs and dances would would occur in events. So that's that's where it started was back in 47 when all the world wariivets got together to to host it. So it's hosted. By the pae nation veterans they're the ones that that are supposed to be running it. The pae veterans organization. So it's it's very much like contemporary powow stay There's like a lot of inner tribal songs and contests. No poweation powow is like. Pawe a lot of war songs. Um and very specific. It's it's all just pawny music and activities. Um, so it brings people. 04:55.86 Captain Sad That's that's cool I and I think we've talked about this and I don't know if we've talked about it directly on the podcast but the you're the pawnees in general have kind of a least like a a warlike culture or there is some um emphasis in it. 05:12.10 alifeinruins so yeah so I mean we're very much a warrior society so hoduku society is what we call it and a lot of that happens really around like looking at the archaeological record. Developments of our warrior society really develop like during that medieval global warming period in the fourteen hundreds um but then really takes off during american or euro-american colonization as more tribes are putting pressure onto the planes. The lakota show up and others and that's where we really see. Um. Or worse side to tick off and then once we are enlisted by the United States cavalry as scouts. Um that that transforms that that form of service completely transforms into ah in a whole different context. So um, so like even today veterans hold a very and especially combat veterans. 05:56.63 David Howe Good. 06:06.43 alifeinruins Like everyone else I know Matt listens to this and he might agree but like if you're in if you're in a meeting and there's a combat veteran. It doesn't matter or if there's a veteran and you're not you are overruled all the time. And if there's a combat veteran like they take precedence. So like that we have like kind of this ranked society wherere definitely military services very much um, put on a on on a pedestal for for the right reason so like um, in part of pa your culture like when you or and or in general indian culture today if you go to a powow um. 1 of the things you're supposed to do as a dancer is provide like a gift to the host or the drum pawnies are the only tribe of the country that don't have to do that because we've already given enough blood for this country that we don't have to give anything else so we have this weird like. Status even within north american indian societies is like our warrior society and our service to the United States is recognized on a different level of like okay they don't we have a special status. 07:08.80 David Howe It's pretty intense because like there's way more Navajo than any other nation I'd imagine but like it really? Okay, okay. 07:13.42 alifeinruins Lakotas recently beat them. Yeah, so lakotas there're I think they're both over 200000 enrolled tribal citizens each. But yeah, then there's like po nation with like 4000 now and we have a very specific like status within and like a lot of um how a culture today. 07:24.75 David Howe Um, well. 07:31.27 alifeinruins Especially if you go there's a northern style in a southern style those are the predominant ones. Um, most southern style powows. The songs are pawe songs. Um often more often than I there's some other ones you can listen to some comanche ones and and kyowa's but like a lot of songs or pawnee songs. Because a lot of our culture is still very much intact. Um, because of ah because of a lot of our service to United States but also just like how um deeply organized the pony nation was even after removal and and keeping um these songs because we had. 07:50.73 David Howe Um, yeah. 07:52.84 Captain Sad Um. 08:05.68 alifeinruins But also goes in the residential school system. How like we didn't have to go so far even though it was a boarding school. It was still within the pawney reserve. So we didn't some did go to Carlisle the really horrific one in Pennsylvania don't get me wrong, but generally we weren't um, didn't have that same cultural degradation as like the navajos did who were like. Trained out to you know Ogden or the lakoass who were all brought out. It was very much like we were close by and you can't just like beat pawnie kids now some atrocities did occur but like their parents are like two miles away and like you know the tribe is all around like if you're goingnna you know like systematically fuck up children. You're gonna you're gonna die right. 08:39.41 Captain Sad Yeah. 08:41.47 alifeinruins So we have some of those you know cultural protections built built in. 08:46.10 David Howe Um I should stay for the record I think the statistic I was referring to was navajos the most spoken indigenous language in the United States the second most in North America I didn't it's not population I don't think my memory. Okay. 08:57.90 alifeinruins It was though like recently it changed so they they used to have the highest population and like everything you said is absolutely correct just like within this past year and indian country. It's like there's more lakoass now and you know as a pawnee that sucks. But for them good for them. Um, very well. 09:02.18 David Howe Okay. 09:07.60 David Howe Okay, well yeah. 09:11.35 Captain Sad Yeah, you guys get along very well right? I. 09:16.90 alifeinruins Um, but they're they're almost the code as I know it's just all teasing. You know we don't take those things to hard. 09:19.67 David Howe Follow up, go sorry um, follow up question would be like I know the Navajo code talkers were like a specific thing or whatever. But um with the pawnee being so involved in world war 2 ah, was there any specific roles that they filled or were they just any other combat veteran. 09:35.21 alifeinruins Yeah, ah, most of them are combat vets. Um, actually my grandfather was po at code talker. So it' his brother so they were awarded the congressional co talker medals in 2012 um I have like a copy in my room I have a couple copies of those things. Um, it's just because in part of that warrior society back in. 09:42.55 David Howe Um, cool. 09:46.51 David Howe Thanks Obama. 09:54.57 alifeinruins Um, the national guard days the forty fifth infantry division. The thunderbirds was the most racially diverse national guard unit in the country so there were like all indian units. Um, and so like a lot like my grandfather and a lot of pawnees. They all went to the national guard and they were all in like the same company. You know like they were all forty fifth one hundred and seventy ninth division bravo company all infantry and so because most of the guys are pawnees or someone else like they were speaking code like they were just speaking so there are a lot of tribes. The Navajo are very ah well known for their service in the Marine Corps where the marine corps only used. Navajo code talkers the us army in Europe specifically with the national guard units they had access to like more tribes especially in Oklahoma. Um, so they were using like damn near like each division or a lot of these units had their our own using their own codes. Their own languages so you'd have like you know one headquarters tent that had a bunch of different indians in it speaking to their units on the front line so they would to be speaking pawnee or um, Kaoa um, so there was there's a lot more code talkers than people recognize, but the Navajo code is just very specific to the Marine Corps where the marines look. We're only using this. And heavily recruited from the Navajo. 11:08.15 David Howe Okay I guess for the audience listening who might not know about what we're talking about is that the United States military and I guess the english too used um native american languages to speak to each other across communications. So that the japanese and the germans couldn't. 11:25.80 alifeinruins Yeah, like they didn't have they had no idea because they didn't have access to basically the anthropological records like today I don't know you can get away with it. But you know back then these are these are native speakers like my grandfather he was raised by his grandparents who came from Nebraska. 11:25.92 David Howe Like figure out the code like what that couldn't figure. Yeah, pretty cool. 11:34.76 Captain Sad Yeah, probably not. 11:44.55 alifeinruins Right? Like he knew pawnye and he else knew planes in in sign language those are like first generation they grew up speaking Paw Ee um so they were very fluent when those code talkers were so yeah, we have the metaldals. Um I think my dad and uncle almost left it in the taxi in Dc. 11:54.29 David Howe Cool. 11:59.64 Captain Sad Shit. 12:02.31 David Howe With a deal. 12:02.48 alifeinruins There's like some story behind it like after the ceremony they were in a taxi and they thought they each thought the other brother grabbed it and they had to like chase the taxi down to get this fucking medal. Um, so yeah, so we have this very much so that this homecoming is to recognize a lot to recognize that so we have. Everyone heres of indian princesses. We do have. We do actually have princesses but they're very much a modern day thing. So we have I think I know we have at least 2 maybe 3 but we have the pona nation princess but we also have the poe nation veterans princess and so that gets awarded at the powow. And so there's there's duties and responsibilities with that. So like being a princess today. That's usually a high school girl carries a lot of weight like they're supposed to be ambassadors for our tribe. So even at our homecoming there were other tribes princesses there like they have to attend and there's like a section for other princesses. Um. So it's it's a really interesting like as an anthropologist I look at that because princesses are not an ancestral or traditional thing that is very much a modern post western thing that we've we've picked up and and you know that's that they're pretty cool. Um. 13:05.29 David Howe Like western thing. Yeah. 13:09.92 Captain Sad As does there like a word that they would use previously to describe that and had a similar role or is it a completely new role That's kind of adopted from kind of Western interaction with Western culture the latter. Okay, yeah. 13:21.94 alifeinruins The latter I don't yeah there I mean yeah because it's It's just a ladder. It's a very much a newer thing and like powows themselves are also very new amalgamations like I think they really started showing up really in the nineteen hundreds and that. 13:38.90 David Howe Niko Holt told me it was like because of the buffalo bill show and stuff like that like to to make americans like view I mean not like natives as if they're an exhibit but like you know, just something that new yorkers had never had contact with you know? yeah. 13:40.75 alifeinruins Death. 13:53.70 alifeinruins Yeah, so a lot of roots of like indigenous let because we also had our wild west show was pawe billswell so there's Buffalo bill and there's Pawne bill. Those were the two major shows Buffalo bill used a lot of lakotas and what did pawnee bill use a lot of fucking pawnies. Um. 14:00.80 David Howe Okay. 14:07.60 alifeinruins You know so those are the roots of it and so that that's why like a lot of Powow songs or pawe songs. So like we have a very firm root into Powow culture and in that way. Um, but it's a it was a fun time. This was the first year granted because of the funeral and my grand my uncle that. 14:09.13 David Howe Choctaw. 14:18.90 David Howe Cool. 14:26.71 alifeinruins That passed away. He's a vietnam combat vet and out of respect for him and my family because he was also helped run pawny veterans organization and he helped run these things and he's also the guy who is in charge. He was also a south band chief um. And he run kuskahadu our Wichita visitation which we're really kind of worried about because I don't we don't no one no one wants to take that up anymore. So um, and the reason why he's Southand is because the guy that used to run kuskahadu picked my uncle and in order to do it. He had to switch bands so he was. Skd and then he went to pit tohaway dada and that was a very significant choice that kind of followed him the rest of his life because he lost all credibility within the s ski d band because he' like you don't want to be skate anymore. Fuck it. You don't have a say in our meetings or how s skidis run things like it was a big deal that he had to do and I respect him for it. Um, because he you know. 15:14.14 David Howe Ah. 15:16.99 Captain Sad The fact. 15:22.81 alifeinruins Kuscojado we've been doing that for 300 years at least so like he picked that up and has has run it. Um so homecoming is supposed to run four days but because of the funeral it got condensed into 2 Um, which is kind of it caused some issues. But um I mean it's not like. 15:35.54 David Howe Ah. 15:37.56 David Howe I Have a question I mean I don't want you to speak on Behalf of all pawe veterans but have you overheard stories or like do you know any opinions on like what it's like for indigenous Americans to fight for the country that killed them. 15:40.57 alifeinruins Yeah. 15:55.58 David Howe Um, or just okay. 15:55.63 alifeinruins So I'm not privy to those conversations. You know it's like that's that's ah, ah like our warrior society. You can only be in that if you're a veteran. Um, so like the stories that I've heard is like before the world War Ii Guys went to war. 16:02.21 David Howe Share. 16:10.85 alifeinruins All the pawnee scouts that were still alive who fought the lakoas back in the day they got them all together and like taught them things and like told them stories which they then utilized in italy and North African Germany like they taught them the old tricks of the trade like this is when you do night missions. This is how you do this? This is what you need to do to prepare. 16:17.40 David Howe Yeah. 16:26.49 David Howe Ah. 16:27.78 alifeinruins Um, so that and that's still moved on from war to war then the world war 2 guys taught it to the vietnam guys. The vietnam guys taught it to desert storm and and um so they've kept that knowledge so it's still there. But it's it within our warrior society. Ah I mean this. 16:32.66 David Howe Yeah. 16:39.90 David Howe I mean I get it makes sense because if the the Japanese or the Germans were to take over the continent like they would also be taken over too. So I mean it's better to fight against them I don't know. 16:52.76 alifeinruins Well I mean for us because we never went to war with the United States um ah our original 1818 treaty that was signed June eighteenth my birthday. Ah we agreed to fight with the United States in perpetuity. 16:56.77 David Howe Um. 17:05.58 David Howe B. 17:07.32 alifeinruins So even though the United States is backed down on that treaty like the way that our nation looks at it is like we are still upholding our end of the bargain. So like I know some vets. That's how they cope it's like well we're we're just upholding to what we said we would do not necessarily these ideas of freedom or the United States or terrorism. It's like we have an obligation. 17:13.58 David Howe Gotcha. 17:24.39 alifeinruins As part of this treaty to fight for the United States in times of war still now it's second goal. Yeah. 17:28.52 David Howe Gotcha fascinating. 17:31.80 Captain Sad That's very fascinating I think on that note, we'll end this first segment and we'll be right back of episode 1 64 of a life in ruins podcast.