00:00.71 Captain Sad Welcome back to episode 1 63 of a life improvement's podcast. We are talking about humans eating flesh um and we had teased ah that we're going to talk about some cut marks at Kubifora but my question is. Why aren't they talking about koobe after ah, that's the worst that joke yes, send her groans. 00:21.72 alifeinruins Got do it. It's It's pretty good I mean I I enjoyed it when you said it in the internal I like you have to repeat that because it's fucking gold. Um, you. 00:28.20 Captain Sad Yeah, it could work delivery could work but also send me all your groans to my Instagram playing as loud as possible I appreciate that. 00:36.78 alifeinruins I think you know you should join that clown college that David did during covid and that should be your set piece that'd be good I should have called it clo college like caught David really did like ah a standup workshop and he did a. 00:50.18 Captain Sad Yeah, yeah, yeah, like like ah like a big big name things that clown college is a not not quite that That's ah, that's Comedian school I think. 00:50.63 alifeinruins Online Zoom performance with the comedy seller like a famous thing. 01:02.71 alifeinruins I think I think it's like literally for clouds. Um, but we like to tease David but yeah, so we were as we like looking this up I realized like a ah recent science article dropped today and or not science article. 01:17.14 alifeinruins Shit I have way too many tabs over like like we've gotten into the weeds when it came to this cannibalism stuff because it's it's there's it's everywhere. Dude It's a hot topic and by nature so fright. 01:23.84 Captain Sad Yeah, so it isn't scientific reports which is published by nature. Yep yeah, you want us to do the standard spiel. We'll do the airlane air. 01:33.59 alifeinruins Remember and and you guys know how we feel about nature but it's it's like be careful when you read archeology in nature because like that's how you get saruy. Um, you know, usually it's like a brilliant publication outside of that. But whoever's running the archeology division I mean granted, they. 01:42.60 Captain Sad I mean. 01:53.27 alifeinruins and and I and I love Steve Holein like he's a really good guy but like they drop some highly controversial things and at the end of the day it gets the field talking. So I guess they're doing their job because like we talk about it and we reflect on the field a lot and it spurs a lot of people to action to talk about these hot button topics. So. 02:04.15 Captain Sad Yeah. Yeah, and you hope that they that that creates publishing and and stuff to counter that those things. So Yeah I don't completely hate it I I don't completely hate it. But I do hate it a little bit just because I think it it gets disseminated so much to a whiter audience and then they don't they they don't miss the. 02:14.10 alifeinruins And and that's what happens so fucked of doing it right? yeah. 02:28.90 Captain Sad Or then like the large audience it misses like the rebuttals and the later publications that are like not fam. This isn't what's going on. So that's my that's my only beef you heard it before we a broken fucking record but there you go. 02:34.25 alifeinruins Yeah, broken fucking record. So this is early places in cutmart commented fossil from kubi four Kenya by Brianna Poiner at all. Ah, this is scientific report so we came across it because ah the news media is buzzing with it and of course like they did with our Godam horse paper twisting it and like Mike Ponte who's a co-author 1 of um, Connor's foreign professors at Csu. Um, like says like it's not necessarily cannibalism. He says that like repeatedly they're like. They're eating each other and he's like no, they're not um so. 03:08.24 Captain Sad Well I think it's evidence and like in the title they don't say like they don't come out swinging saying cannibalism is practice. It's just like there's a cut Mark here. What's what what does that mean we don't know. 03:16.75 alifeinruins Yeah, and they're then they're definitely cut marked so what they have is 1 shin bone by a species that they're not quite sure what it is originally it was uncovered by Mary Leakey of the famous leakey family back in the day so that so. the the bone the shin bone is one point four million years old um it's left shin bone. It was originally described as Boise eye and then later it was changed to something else and nowadays they're like it's unidentfiable. We really we know it's it's genus homo we know that for sure it's a bipedal hominid. We don't know which one. 03:52.24 Captain Sad This is. 03:56.34 alifeinruins And and thank God they did that because you know fuck pale and anthropology trying to identify things. But what they have here are um, they ultrascan the shit out of this shin bone and they use 3 D models of the marks to identify them and sure as shit. There are multiple vertical and horizontal. Cut marks on this shin bone. Um, and yeah, so these definitely aren't marks from carnivores gnawing or rodents or any sowward of bioturbation or which means like basically after the things deposited roots or whatever fuck with it. 04:18.27 Captain Sad Parallel which is really interesting too. 04:35.77 alifeinruins They're very much cultural marks made by another hominid and they're towards the I don't know skeletalingual but they're towards the towards the knee part of the shin bone. Um. 04:46.47 Captain Sad I Think that's um, because distal is away from the center of the body. That's let's what's stop sort of that proximal I think it's the proximal end of the we're probably wrong, tell us we're wrong, um, quo us and but yeah, so it's it's near the kneebone. 04:53.60 alifeinruins Proximal. 04:59.24 alifeinruins Tell us you're wrong. Um, yeah. 05:03.77 Captain Sad Um, like you would be cutting off that calf almost right. 05:06.34 alifeinruins It looks like it because it's towards the back end So The calf end Fuck. We've really got to go through Anatomy again because I'm like so it's in in the back. So It's where your calf would be right? That's like when you're doing leg curls. It's that part of the the Shin bone. It's cut on so it's like in a very light. It's not in the middle of the bone that's in the back towards the meaty bits. So like they're carving through some bipedal calves to get there and that's where it gets and they're all in like they're pretty centered in one part of the bone too. 05:23.65 Captain Sad Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 05:40.12 alifeinruins And I guess like the verticality and horrors like they're they're clearly in the same spot. So it's very much fucking intentional. Um. 05:47.78 Captain Sad And I do and and that's kind of I think where they leave it which is kind of really interesting that they just say and they have like a sentence at the end that's like oh this could be this could this could be that but they are. They're really not calling it either or right now which I have a ton of respect for doing. Just saying like this is this is the evidence. They're cut Marks We need more to to study to find if this is actually like a ritual practice. 06:12.31 alifeinruins Yeah, and they're very clearly like listen there's uncontested evidence for cannibalism with neanderthals like much later this is fucking Weird. We're not saying it's necessarily cannibalism or anthro poagey. It could be because at this point there's still like several species of genus Homo running around. Maybe it's another genus of I mean it has to be right? like we're the only ones carrying fucking tools. So It could be a different um homo group I Fucking hate saying that um take it's that's a weird sound bite. 06:44.84 Captain Sad It's just yeah, it's. 06:47.28 alifeinruins Um, it could be another group of genus homo of coming in and eating them is that cannibalism I don't fuck Now we're getting back in the God Damn paleo like maybe not yeah. 06:55.65 Captain Sad Yes, that x ah is that so cannobalism then I guess that's it. That's the counts. But I guess that that the assumption with that is that they're all humans and they're all of the same species or were they just hungry or or was that just Sunday dinner I don't know. 07:11.39 alifeinruins Right? Like are they like the donners is this something going on. We're like they can't eat anything else and they're eating their body who's already dead but I don't I don't know like I but it could also be. 07:12.13 Captain Sad What are we going to call it. Ah. 07:20.55 Captain Sad Yeah I don't know what. 07:28.96 alifeinruins Ah, ritual practice of defleshing their their body for burial like we can't leave them here to rot it's 1 shin bone I don't know where's the rest of the skeleton is there more of the skeleton that ah. 07:43.20 Captain Sad Ah. 07:45.76 alifeinruins Imagine if there's more the Skeleton they'd be like no, there's no more cut marks. Oh do we were fucking right? This fossil specimen is nearly complete proximal tiia with the proximal end proximal shaft and midshaft present. So we said the right words. 07:49.23 Captain Sad Yeah, um, and it might be just that. Do. 08:01.86 Captain Sad Yeah, sometimes but um, yeah, well and we'll see ah they did. They did some other kind of scientific stuff. But when we really are seeing better evidence like this is this is very much a one off. Kind of thing I think we're not really seeing one point four million years ago million years ago maybe even five hundred thousand years years ago we're not really finding good evidence of human bones being defleshed I guess maybe I think there's 1 and 600000 ndred thousand years homo sapiens bones from. 08:30.71 alifeinruins Yeah. 08:37.68 Captain Sad Ethiopia I don't know I'll have to double check that. But we're gonna we're gonna gloss over that for now and we're gonna we're gonna jump to neanderthals. 08:44.83 alifeinruins Yeah, so going to like who we know is actually fucking eating each other and it's Homo Sapiens andolensis and then also anatomically modern humans are doing it too like like something weird happened like thirty thousand years ago so like everyone's kind of doing it. But it's like mostly in Europe. 09:02.35 Captain Sad Yeah. 09:04.61 alifeinruins And Asia like central asia at a time when neanderthals are kind of on their way out and like initial anatomic and modern humans are coming in so like maybe there's this like well it's not many neanderthals around and they're not having a good time. Maybe it is. 09:17.32 Captain Sad Um. 09:24.35 alifeinruins They're eating each other to fucking survive and maybe these anasomicbal modern humans who aren't familiar with the landscape as like initial colonizing populations are fucking eating each other to survive. 09:31.56 Captain Sad Yeah I'd also be interested to see if it is like we can call it a modern bias so people in Europe or people who are studying sites in Europe Africa are are taking these kind of approaches where you're doing microscopic kind of analysis of cut marks. Etc and maybe that's not done in other places because of whatnot but that I would be interested to see how many ah like actual studies are being done in other places to see if that is like maybe it is like a homo sapiens thing or maybe it's just specific to this where 2 human groups are nearby I don't know. 09:50.22 alifeinruins Right. 10:07.50 Captain Sad That's ah, that's a good question but we definitely. We definitely have evidence like super super good evidence of um neanderthals cutting them so cutting their homies up and eating them. 10:09.83 alifeinruins Yeah. 10:21.42 alifeinruins Yeah, pretty ah death so like well documented so it's not just cut marks but also seeing like human toothmarks are chewing marks so not only are they being cut and they're being not on like you would at fucking famous Daves and he got a full slack of baby back ribs. 10:29.56 Captain Sad Yeah, yeah. 10:37.88 alifeinruins That's the kind of like human bone marks you got on these bad boys. So it's like very clearly like people are are eating these people um type of type of stuff. So it's definitely happening in Spain and France and in Germany's in these neanderthal populations. Ah. 10:53.69 Captain Sad And they're also finding it in the and there and there's their gut fauna too right? I think that's that's part of that too is that at least in Spain um, and then later stuff too. They're definitely finding in their gut fauna. So like yeah yeah, they're eating people I mean there's there's no other way that that gets inside. 10:55.71 alifeinruins And yeah. 11:12.13 alifeinruins There's the there's no other fucking way. There's a really as we're searching through this we came across this article that I really liked and it's titled. Um, we're neanderthal is responsible for their own extinction by a gusty and Rubio kimbio I just assumed that was spanish but it might be like the. Um, might be fucking up an italian's name like we did with emberto poor but umbarto good yes guys. It's albrella not albare. It's like dude you're giving us the double l's and you have that accent. We're saying Alvarea fucking americans we know one other language and it's spanish and they're taking that away from us. Um. 11:39.30 Captain Sad A ah but a yeah, we're sorry ah we're so sorry that. 11:49.26 alifeinruins And so so sorry, such a such a great guest. Um, and so what they're talking about in this article is you know like so we know cannibalism is documented in a number nanothal site. So probably so if it's a number of cannibal sites or cannibal sites Neanderthal sites. You know it's probably cannibalism because it seems to be like a cultural thing. 11:52.84 Captain Sad Yeah. 12:06.25 Captain Sad Yeah, yeah. 12:08.51 alifeinruins So there's caprina level 25 from calmba gren now mola guer see I this is me fucking up french names again pridedelis. Ah yeah, we here and here's one for their qua a dale boquetta day zaphariah. 12:17.14 Captain Sad We need our we need our french ah speaker here. David. 12:27.50 alifeinruins Lc drone. So yeah, ah a couple of these places and they also talk about it being a Homo Answercessor and Homo rohodent sansis and we're not touching that at the moment. Um, so what they're talking about is as they're radiocarbonating these sites. They're noticing like. 12:35.33 Captain Sad Yeah. 12:45.84 alifeinruins Late Neanderthal occupations. Um, they have ah it's It's not great. Um, and so they're looking at cannibalism for basically like they kind of ate themselves to death is is like essentially like what they're trying to explore. Um. 13:03.88 Captain Sad Ah. 13:04.32 alifeinruins Is is this really sad idea that it wasn't humans that killed them off as like cannibals that are these neandatthals got so hungry. They just ate each other because they weren't doing so well towards the well the end of the last glacial maximum is still like 35000 years away but they're not having a good time. 13:21.87 Captain Sad Yeah, they're they're definitely on the the decline. Um and it it is interesting that if one of their results is that um cannibalism is actually no case strategy but it depends on what you are. 13:22.54 alifeinruins Um. 13:37.50 alifeinruins Um. 13:37.95 Captain Sad In in terms of like your territory versus other people's territory so they're saying like in Hostile territory cannibalism ain't too bad of a strategy which is it so it and allows a group to increase its resources and protects the zone from incoming groups. Um, and then once other people are a non-cannibalistic competitors introduce cannibalism becomes an extremely negative Trait. Um, and it kind of affects in that way which is is a kind of a fucked up paper but that's an interesting you know. 14:03.56 alifeinruins Right. 14:10.96 alifeinruins Right? So and so they're using they're they're modeling this they're putting this in a computer program and it's fantastic because you look at the the figures and they clearly screen Grabbb the entire screen and it looks like something out of fucking. It looks like fallout 1 is what their screen looks like. 14:12.99 Captain Sad Kind of idea. 14:29.47 alifeinruins But so so they put in all these all these variables and they're showing like without an extra group homo sapiens cannibalism is beneficial because you're keeping the population alive like there's that really fucked up quote from the walking dead. Um, when they meet the cannibals in that um core memory unlocked and they justify it. They're like you know. If ah, if a mother bear is starving and so or 2 cubs if the mother bear dies everyone dies. But if the you know bears eat their cubs if they're and so do pandas a lot of animals eat their young when they're not times aren't great because at the end of the day they can still if they eat their babies and survive. They can just make new babies. 14:55.21 Captain Sad Yeah. 15:02.53 Captain Sad Reproduce. 15:04.99 alifeinruins That's kind of the game theory logic and that's what they're applying here is like if deandertal's eating each other when times are tough. It's gonna help. But when you throw in another population. They ain't eating each other. But apparently they are um. 15:15.75 Captain Sad I Don't know that's interesting I Think that's a and we and that that'll be a I'm in the links in the show notes. So we'll we'll get that. But yeah, so there's. 15:24.70 alifeinruins Yeah, it's just on paper. It's always 6 pages. It's like ah it's a fun read. It's like oh this is how you apply math and computers to like what's this question solve. 15:34.75 Captain Sad For sure. Um, and I think and then the the kind of the next article which really is cool because it's talks about like a very large time death from like homo ancestor to like the bronze age and takes this kind of like big approach to say. What is the evidence for cannibalism in prehistoric western europe I mean you'd love to see this and done in Eastern Europe you'd love to see it done in Africa but this is where they're focusing their stuff on and they they really have a good kind of ah, a glomeration conglomeration. Whatever it is of. 16:10.48 Captain Sad Of dates of methods of cannibalism of kind of what that the the population is what who is getting eaten um, etc. So I think that is really interesting and you can kind of see that that cannibalism is. For sure, starting at least 808000 Bp and then just kind of keeps ramping and gets more evidence. Um, as you go through time which is which is interesting. Um I don't know want to take a break here and dive back in. 16:42.52 alifeinruins Yeah, 100% I think that's that's a good natural port. So yeah, we'll get back and we're going to talk about that that paper archaeological evidence for cannibalism in prehistoric western europe from homecessor to the bronze age by salady and Rodriguez Hidalgo so we'll be right back after these smooth smooth messages messages messages. Jesus.