00:00.00 alifeinruins Welcome to episode 1 63 of a life rooms podcast reinvestigatee the careers and research of those living life and runs I'm your host carlton shield chief go and I'm joined by my co-host Connor John and connorors David. 00:14.61 Captain Sad David is fighting a battle with a fan right now which he's currently losing. Ah the fan isn't even moving. But it's ah it's still winning. Yeah. 00:25.37 alifeinruins That's why it's winning because it's not on. It's not working so David has has taken his buss and is now in Laramie Wyoming and living on Connor's Curb oh did do park in the back. Oh. 00:33.28 Captain Sad Land My God damn land. 00:40.68 Captain Sad Just ah, no, it's it's it's public land Technically I Just like to think of him as like a peon you know, paying tribute to me. 00:50.14 alifeinruins It's funny because I bet it's in the same place that I remember it being during craves wedding. So. 00:55.60 Captain Sad It's not there currently, but it's ah it's on its way there. So yeah, he's dealing with that hope he'll hop on one of these episodes in the near future. But for now on this lovely episode of 1 63 carlton 00:56.96 alifeinruins Ah, there. 01:12.18 Captain Sad Has been on a kick you could say I think you could you can kind of pick pick it up seeing as like some of the stuff we talked about in our previous episodes. There's been a lot of it's been pretty heavy paleo Anth. Um, oldest burials what else we talked about. We talked about. 01:31.21 Captain Sad Leady. Ah, and I think that was the same episode but we've we've talked kind of about that and we haven't really done that before in the past and our episodes because we are not paley@theprologsbutcarlton sent an article today that really kind of spiraled us down in and really put us in. 01:51.21 Captain Sad Carlton Sent us an article today that like sent us down a rabbit hole on on a topic that we are not super familiar with but we're interested in so and because we needed to record an episode today I think you said it you sent the article today just to just to unveil for folks, how organized we are. You sent the article today and then in the last 30 minutes we made an outline is that too much information. 02:15.20 alifeinruins Yeah I think that sums up what happened? No well I sent the article yesterday because like we were supposed to record yesterday and so what are sort of what are and record about so like recently I've just been going on like archeology news sites sites and like what what interests me and so. 02:22.20 Captain Sad Oh you did said yesterday. Okay. 02:31.33 alifeinruins But talked about um I haven't done paleoanthology in a bit and I and I really do like paleoanthology. Um, ah and so we like clearly don't know the goddamn fossils because we go over this every time but like we like we did last time before ah the Dr Kerig episode where we were like let's take a topic. 02:35.67 Captain Sad Me too more. 02:50.46 alifeinruins And we did the same type of thing with um, that bow the evidence for naandnothals having the bow we did that whole thing too like we we know the human behavior and activity how you find an archeological record and it's like really interesting, especially when we're talking about human ancestors when do we see you know these. 02:54.85 Captain Sad Is it. 03:09.79 alifeinruins Behaviors first begin and how do we see them today so we came across I came across this article um in heritage daily in the archeology section. It is titled evidence of neanderthal cannibalism found in Spain and like I remembered in University Of Wyoming 03:29.40 alifeinruins When we were doing the bio Anth theory course that you know the top of cannibalism came up with neanderthals and I was like well let's let's just talk about um cannibalism and like really quickly we started going down some really fucking crazy rabbit holes because there's a lot more evidence for canalism. Not only just in. Neanderthals butomic and modern humans and like homo ancestor that like cannibalism. Um, it's present and and so like as you've heard me Connor David bitch about like how little evidence there is for shit in paleoanthropology. The fact that there's so much ethnic cannibalism is. And is sn startling because it's like we don't have that many fossils and they're like here's a dozen sites where people who definitely got the fuck up and it's like whoa. Okay, and what does this mean and how do we see today and then also like as we're going through it like a recent article came out like today and this is June Twenty sixth 04:03.91 Captain Sad Ah, you're like. 04:22.66 alifeinruins Of um, from it was co-authored by 1 ah from a professor at colorado state university um, Connor's Alma Mater and it just like so happened that there was like oh shit, there's like more evidence of this. Um. And that title that that article is titled a case of cannibalism Smithsonian Csu researchers uncover how human relatives butchered one another one point four five million years ago um so yeah. 04:45.89 Captain Sad So Cannibalism is hot right Now. Let's just let's just say that cannibalism is hot in the news and I think in my understanding of it is like the common idea behind Cannibalism is that we don't really see it till later like we're not seeing it with Neanderthals. We're not seeing it with Homo erectus. Think that's like the common thing you get really good evidence like um later in time that people are eating each other obviously with ethnologists and culture anthropologists going out and studying people you have evidence of cannibalism. Um, you might have earlier stuff and and Mesa Vera but it's hot. It's rare to push it back and I think obviously that has something to do with the the limited record we are having the limited sample size etc. But it's exciting and and interesting to to get into this and we'll see if this is kind of like challenging the the common narrative about this. But I think we're going to start off. Because we don't always do this but you know we we are gonna do something we're Goingnna Define Terms We're gonna define some terms right Now. So get your pencils ready and write this stuff down. 05:45.12 alifeinruins We gotta define some shit. 05:51.75 alifeinruins Exactly so the first we got is cannibalism cannibalism is the cultural practice of eating human flesh. So um, it is. Yeah, so basically cannibalism is always practice in groups and it's considered ritual. It's a it's a ritual and social institution. So it is a cultural practice so like and and cannibalistic societies. Cannibalism is is a norm and it's not odd like it is in today's societies then we have excarnation and. Ex carnation as described I had a list of all the damn terms up and I dropped my one second edit this out Chris ex carnation. No I got I have the I have the. 06:39.64 Captain Sad I got it ahead of me if you want me to go into it. 06:45.61 alifeinruins Excarnation refers to the practice of removing the flesh and organs of the dead before burial now this is going to be critical as we talk about this this evidence and how people are talking about cannibalism especially in the past so we have cannibalism group practice of eating the dead of eating human flesh. Excarnation the practice of defleshing and deorganing bodies before they're interred. No eating. There's 0 eating and excarnation and then we have a fun and and and. 07:17.44 Captain Sad Um, anthrop a G Po phase you. 07:21.56 alifeinruins And throw poage and and throw poagegie. Yeah, anthropopagegie I hate that that middle piece fucking up an I can't do an throw Po Phji um and anro poageji I'm sounding I'm sounding it like an idiot because like that's my redneck roots. This is how I have to say it or to pronounce it. Um, oh Geez What did I Just do with that What does anthrope and throw poagegies. 07:49.36 Captain Sad That's that's it's not so cannibalism is like the ritual and social practice of it. Anthrop Pro Faji is when it happens more incidentally or is just the act of eating human flesh. So. 07:59.27 alifeinruins Yes, so that that's it. It's not a social institution or a ritual. It is like 1 person eating human flesh within a society so like Hannibal the cannibal is actually Hannibal the anthro pophageist. Like the donner party like evidence of of cannibalism today where it's like a bunch of people stranded out in the woods all they and like they have to resort to eating each other to survive so think of didn't we do a whole whailling episode too about this recently ish wing. 08:29.43 Captain Sad I think fairly fairly recently I don't know if we talked about cannibalism but there will I'm going to throw alfd alfred packchyter in there too because Colorado the musical right? Oh really. 08:40.80 alifeinruins Oh yeah, and that is the name of ah the dining hall in boulder. Yeah, so actually this is kind of funny. So it's so there was there was a when they redid the whole dining hall. They had a contest of who what they should name and the south part guys who are su boulder alums they're the ones that put. Alfred Packer's name up so it's the Alfred Packer cafeteria named after name capture fucking Anthrop pay anthrop pophageist. 09:04.30 Captain Sad Well, ah hades yeah well and they also um, they wrote a whole I think their first thing they actually wrote together was ah alfred pack the musical so there's a whole musical that they wrote. And was performed about Alfred Packer which is something I want to watch yeah and um. 09:19.41 alifeinruins So so this so it's important so like we normally today when we talk about cannibals. We're actually talking about anthro pophageists because cannibals thats ah that is a group social activity. So like some of those groups that are in the malaysian islands. I think that Rockefeller kid got eaten by cannibals. Yeah. 09:39.16 Captain Sad Oh yeah, for sure and I do want to throw 2 other terms in there. They're not going to be as important to what we're talking about today but it's it's good to know I guess we are a learning podcast or a teaching podcast I don't that's debatable sometimes but in this case. 09:53.61 alifeinruins Where a pot ask. 09:56.93 Captain Sad Ah, in this case. Ah, there's 2 different types of cannibalism. Um, in reference to people or in-group cannibalism and out of group canniism. So exo cannibalism is. 10:16.30 Captain Sad Um, when you take victims or take people from other groups or enemies that are killed in combat or prisoners of war. Um and and and eat them kind of with the aim being to take revenge or assimilates such virtues as their strength or courage. Um, so this is found in the Fiji islands. Um, no. 10:36.20 alifeinruins Also in Wyoming you know, have you ever been byrowhhart butte out near landder. So. There's this butte out and in the wind river reservation. It's it's close to lander and um it was a site so like Shoshone's Hashtag team shoshonenes versus crows. Um. A shoshone chief brave I don't know a shoshone warrior killed a crow took out his heart climbed up Crow's but and ate it while the battle is raging. That's how it's got the name crow heart and like the crows dipped out. 11:07.58 Captain Sad Do if we if we had a soundboard clip for that So metal that that that's where it would be right there. 11:13.50 alifeinruins We don't have it got to oh here here is according to legend following a 5 day battle for rights to the hunting grounds in the wind river range chief washikee of the shoshone and chief big robber of the crow agreed to a duel with the winner gaining the rights to the wind river hunting grounds chief washikee eventually prevailed but he was so impressed with the courage of his opponent. That rather than scalp him he instead cut out his heart and placed at the end of his lance. Oh I thought he ate it I mean it's a legend anyways I like my version he got up top and ate it. 11:37.84 Captain Sad Yeah, it's yeah yeah, um, all right? and there's also endocanalism which is ah the ritual consumption of the decease from one's own social group and that in some cases is to guarantee that the dead person's spirit would remain um amongst a living kind of in order to pet. Perpetuate their presence or maintain continuity between life and death. This is also called funerary cannibalism so there is there's kind of a big study and there's a diversity of cannibalism or Anthrop pophagegi or you know all the old god yeah can we just call it a. 12:09.29 alifeinruins See you fuck up to did that fuck that word fuck that word. Yeah, whatever, whatever goddamn culture at the polyp to over this word needs like you can't put a p in the middle of a word and then put a second p right? after it. 12:16.32 Captain Sad We just call it alfred packering or donnering. Ah. 12:26.00 Captain Sad And make it a PH two it's not like well it's called donnering. Um, so yeah, so that's kind of the definitions and and from there. Um, and this this. 12:27.48 alifeinruins Yeah, like fuck God Damn English is stupid. Yeah dontering I like that. 12:43.16 Captain Sad Neanderthal that was found in in the spanish cave has there was they have they found a newuver yet they found a neanderthal juvenile um, skull fragments of collarbone etc and. There were several cut marks kind of indicating that they were processed by other neanderthals or possibly eaten by their relatives and and this is something I think we can eat. We can bring up now or we can talk about later but the evidence for cannibalism in the past. Usually is 1 thing and 1 thing only and that's that's cut marks right? That's that's everyone assumes that there's cut marks so that equals cannibalism and that's kind of been the common just the common thought that that that there isn't maybe not de fleshing. There might not be um. 13:24.15 alifeinruins Yeah. 13:41.20 Captain Sad Ah, excarnation or anything like that. It's always jumped to cannibalism as like the first explanation for these things. 13:46.42 alifeinruins Absolutely I mean like I think that's originally like those old school twentieth century interpretations. But as we move to the twenty first century like it's definitely got a little bit more complex. That's why I wanted to talk about that excarnation is that there's there's plenty of human burial practices across the globe. Ah, come in a variety ways so either defleshing intentionally or even like we talked about sky burroials 2 episodes ago that's excarnation. Um, ah, but right, but when we see cut marks this is working get pretty fun because ah one of my 1 thing I really like about zoo archeology is especially cut Mark analysis. 14:09.61 Captain Sad Um. 14:22.55 alifeinruins And how you can tell how intense people are harvesting flesh and species like bison. For example, you can tell by where the cut marks are on the bison bone to figure out what cuts of meat people are procuring. Um, so just like same if you go to a butcher at your local grocery store. You can see the cut marks what? what pieces of meat they're they're eating so you can actually tell like oh how intensively are they butchering these animals to get meat and we see if especially like in the archaic. They're really getting prime cuts in meat because they're so much more bison they're cutting running them off. Cliffs whereas we get closer to time especially during the reservation era or bison are being systematically hunted by the United States government um or not even hunted killed um, indigenous cultures across the Americas are like intensively trying to take as much meat and and awful awful off of these animals for for nutrients. And so when you look at as as Connor was mentioning. We see cut marks in hominids and that's like what the fuck like why are they cutting up hominences which we talked about in 2 episodes ago like we talked about like the first evidence of burial practices right. Is like this what we're saying with like home an assesssor or what's happened at Kubifora is this actually an earlier type of ritual practice regarding the dead of this deflutching rank. Um, and that's where it gets fun and that's like. 15:51.63 alifeinruins Cannibalism is such a hot and heavy topic especially in today's society that's why it gets all the heat it does ah because that that has so much weight to it and like for us and western societies cannibalism is a fucking. No no, we don't do that that is an extraordinarily taboo. Um. 16:04.20 Captain Sad Yeah. 16:09.91 alifeinruins It's taboo you know I guess like since it's cannibalism isn't isn't it's not necessarily taboo because it's not a practice but definitely fucking Anthrop yeah, dontering that's fucking taboo like but um, sometimes it happens like with whalers. It was actually. 16:18.10 Captain Sad Donnering is. 16:25.84 alifeinruins But I mentioned earlier I went on a whole podcast thing about Moby Dick that's where this is all coming from on the story. It's based off of um, it was actually common for whalers especially ones that were lost at sea like it was just kind of like oh yeah, no, you had to do what you do to survive like they ah the captain that was ah. Based Moby dickoff of like when they found him he had killed his nephew and when they found him like in the fetal position in a boat like sucking on the the Metaar Metacar metarsals like sucking on his finger bones for Mel. And they were trying to get him off the boat and he was trying to protect his nephews bones that he was eating on and they're like oh yeah, shit happens. They've been lost at sea for like six months it was it was a it was like yes it wasn't taboo it's like I but if it's cultural practice of whalers that I guess it's cannibalism. So now we're getting the fun vocab word. 17:03.40 Captain Sad Yeah, what else? what? what else you do? it's. 17:13.40 alifeinruins Yes, cannibalism was fine if we were like there was nothing else left. Yeah, the essex. 17:15.27 Captain Sad Yeah, yeah, and was that the essex is that the yeah, yeah yeah in the heart of the sea is a great book on that that kind of details that and they have that the movie which is kind of okay I think that's good. But yeah yeah I mean that's something super interesting is that. In certain cases. It's like Excused. It's given. Okay, um, yeah, one and I think it's also like it's an othering for us. So like as as a western culture. Um, as at people go out and study other things you think cannibalism only exists in other cultures. 17:37.66 alifeinruins That's like shouldn't happen. 17:52.12 Captain Sad Like primitive cultures. You kind of like associate them with that and I think you could You could also put that into the past so you like you could you kind of put them away and you say that oh it's just other people. It's not what we do, but there is kind of like a stigma and judgment from us about everyone else in the past. So I think that's where this is. 17:57.59 alifeinruins Death. 18:11.97 Captain Sad Is coming from and I think on that point we'll we'll take a little break and poo and we'll we'll dive deep into this ah early plesocene cup marked Hominin Fossil from Kubiforra Kenya 18:21.83 alifeinruins Gotam right? Kubi for.