00:00.46 David Howe Welcome back to episode 1 61 talking about mortuary practices of homos and modern homos. Um I mean it's it's the truth guys grow up while you laughing. It's 2023 marriage is legal between the same sexes. 00:09.88 alifeinruins Foot sorry I so sorry I just wasn' to expect to him I just just didn't expect but the copy of god mostly lovely my parents. It's June. 00:20.40 David Howe Cool. You know you're a professor well like what's going on over here carlson no no, no, it's funny leave that I know it was just jarring the way I said it? Ah what I was going to ask was Connor I cut you off last time. 00:27.60 Captain Sad We're gonna have to cut that and we're gonna have to cut that we're gonna get fuck cancels. 00:28.68 alifeinruins But. 00:33.55 Captain Sad True. 00:38.51 David Howe Ah, you said you went to Catholic funerals. That's what you've been to and it's open casket. 00:40.77 Captain Sad Yeah I've I've only been to one Catholic funeral and it was open casket. 00:44.30 David Howe Why do you think that like what do you think that practice exists. 00:49.81 Captain Sad Fuck I don't know the actual origins of it. Um, yeah I mean I guess it I Guess it's like a recognition of death staring at it kind of thing is would be my guess is that it like. 00:53.18 David Howe I Guess so you can tell the person's there. 00:53.28 alifeinruins Yeah, I'm gonna look out where it cut. 01:02.15 David Howe Yeah. 01:07.82 Captain Sad And it's also weird that we they don't do open caskets when they do like um that the monarchs and stuff like that. They just have them sitting in their kit. Yeah was it. 01:09.79 alifeinruins It's. 01:14.32 David Howe At least the ones we know of yeah I mean if you got malled by a bear I Guess you're not doing an open casket. You know. 01:16.17 alifeinruins No, so it's so it says in most cases, the body present and a vigil often catholics prefer an open casket to allow loved ones to see the person who's died at a final time before burial. So that's probably. 01:31.89 David Howe Some Roman Thing 01:33.84 alifeinruins Otherwise like I've seen mostly catholic ones and like also pawnee ones are generally open casket. Um, because we had well so and I don't want to throw anyone on the bus because I know my tippo listens to this so there was an instance in which someone said we don't touch or see the body so we also touch the debt. 01:37.50 Captain Sad Oh that's interesting. 01:51.75 alifeinruins Like that was something that was instilled like you touch them to say goodbye like rub their chest specifically like their heart. Yeah, and just like you just just say goodbye just to so they can feel touched but there was an instance where someone was like yeah we don't do that and that's when I realized like oh this person is pawnee. But there's also another tribe a tribe that doesn't that. 01:53.25 David Howe Hit the button. 02:10.10 alifeinruins Has very strict cultural taboos and I saw like no, that's not upon e practice this is your other practice coming in and that was alarming for like the situation you're in because it was like wait a minute this is a po a burial so as a whole or ah fuck cut out the burial part Chris. 02:26.12 alifeinruins It was alarming for me because it was ah a practice in which was predominantly ponies so that was a whole thing. 02:33.00 David Howe Interesting. 02:34.94 Captain Sad It is interesting especially because when we have like multiple cultural identities now like the the putting together the certain bail practices is really interesting like as a pawnee person also of another culture as well. Like how do you do that properly. It seems. 02:52.22 David Howe Yeah. 02:54.61 Captain Sad Seems tough. 02:55.86 alifeinruins Yeah I mean it's like 1 of those things. It's like because I think about it because it's also the same as like marriage and like Mac and Emily did both weddings. They had indian wedding and in Pine Ridge and then they had where they were married by a pipe and then they had white wedding in Portland. Um. So maybe it just like depends on I mean I'm going to be fucking dead. But I mean I guess most people put this kind of stuff in their wills like my god damn father like for his funy music wants fucking Jingle bells like he wants Christmas music is his ideas I want people to feel jolly I'm like fuck you you're gonna ruin December for me for the rest of my life. 03:20.47 David Howe Why. 03:27.00 Captain Sad Of ah. 03:27.85 alifeinruins Like no because that I would be immediately brought back to your funeral asshole like no. 03:33.28 Captain Sad You should. There should be so stipulation as long as it's like as long as he dies in like December or something if it's in the Christmas season I think that's appropriate. 03:34.31 David Howe Ah, yeah I mean ah. 03:38.13 alifeinruins Yeah, but generally also with it' just something like Mariah Carey is like 1 that we all want to die. But that's another aspect like Pawe Murri's pawnee funerals are like. 03:40.42 David Howe And maybe it's only the Michael Bula version or something. 03:52.91 alifeinruins Not necessarily happy, but there's a lot more joking and it's jovial because we're happy that they're back with the stars they're like people are sad at points but like generally it's not the same strict. Be quiet, be respectful like we're making fun of the dead person. We're making fun of each other like we're telling those stories that are embarrassing that they can't defend because they're no longer around like that's kind of the vibe. 03:55.65 David Howe Moon. 04:04.69 David Howe Here. 04:10.94 David Howe Thrown him right? under the bus. 04:12.30 alifeinruins Like it's different. Yeah like I'd rather go to a pawine funeral because it's a it's a fun time. Fun time is not necessarily the right word. It's It's not as like I don't leave those funerals feeling. 04:13.10 Captain Sad Yeah, yeah. 04:16.39 David Howe Yeah. 04:28.59 alifeinruins Remorse like I'm not yearning for that. But I'm not like oh my guy that person's gonenna'll never see them like I feel like okay, they've they've moved on like it's a different. It's a way different vibe like when I go to a Catholic funeral I'm like ah God has them now. It's in God's hands. It's like it's a really different like it feels like they've been ripped from me I don't know I think maybe this is just me but it feels like they're they're. 04:28.86 David Howe Melancholic. Yeah. 04:35.60 Captain Sad Oh yeah, it's just sad. Yeah. 04:39.94 David Howe Yeah. 04:48.12 alifeinruins ve been removed from my life whereas in a powney funeral. They feel like they've moved on to their next journey if that makes any sense like there's just very different context of the death. 04:52.65 Captain Sad Yeah. 04:57.73 David Howe I'm most um, the other two funerals I went to one of them was my uncle. My great unclele harvey he fought at iigjima or he was an antiacraft gunner in eigjima. So I don't know if he that many he was shooting. Was there air was an air fight at Ebaji I don't know. Um. 05:13.20 alifeinruins I Think there were it was very limited because by elo Midway was over the coral sea was over that they shelled the fuck out of that island. 05:20.90 David Howe So he was just chilling on the ship. Oh so yeah, he was doing something like that anyway went to his when I was a kid they buried him in New Jersey no one wants to go to New Jersey but I had to go for that. Um, and then they put him in the ground as a rabbi. But my other uncle my mom's uncle died a few years ago in Florida and we went down there and he was in the army during the korean war and he was in I think he was in East Germany or West Germany I should say and like they did the whole. Like there's someone playing taps like ah, an army guy and then like they gave my Aunt Jane like the flag and like that's a tradition too like just a simple funeral when they put him in like a little those standing like he was cremated and it was just one of those standing. 05:58.55 Captain Sad So. 06:14.28 Captain Sad Oh well, what are those called mausoleum. Yeah, but like the newer newer iteration of it where it's just yeah Po box. 06:15.79 David Howe Graves with like a bunch of graves and you put it in there on a mausoleum. But yeah, it looked like a male cubby like he was just putting there but like yeah yeah I was like all right? This Jill um, but yeah, so like. That's cool I think that's the only military like funeral I've been to. But yeah, when the taps is played. It's always like kind of emotional and like you know my aunt was crying and the daughter was crying. Um and I was just chilling. 06:45.30 Captain Sad Yeah, my my grandfather was ah was was buried in Fort Logan in Denver um, and it was interesting because yeah, they did the same thing they did taps they did the 21 gun salute he was at air force for a little bit I think he was stationed in Germany um korean war stuff. But. 06:56.86 David Howe Um, okay. 06:59.56 David Howe Maybe they knew each other. 07:01.78 Captain Sad It was really interesting because they almost had that process down like ah it was like a well-oiled machine. Yeah like which is which I guess is military makes sense in a military context that it would be regimented because they had to do so many funerals for vets. Um, you know people. 07:06.51 David Howe Yeah, it was was regimented. Yeah yeah. 07:20.90 Captain Sad Current military etc that they had to like push people through this but they they were respectful and very kind to people during that time but it was really interesting watching like the mechanics behind it like they had to just keep this keep this thing going because there's so many military vets that were being buried. 07:30.45 David Howe Yeah. 07:38.85 alifeinruins You know. 07:39.40 David Howe Damn well-oiled yeah actually the the funeral I went to last year that it so was at the long Island Jewish Cemetery think is what it was called and like we got there and it was just ah, just a constant carpool of cars coming through and they're like are you with the steinbergs and I was like yeah. And then like they just push you through and like they got they got a lot of shoes to bury that day. So It's just like it was just pushing through and pushing there and I was like damn this is so like what's the word like I wouldn't say disrespectful. It's just like damn there's an industry around burying people. 08:09.28 Captain Sad It's not let Yeah absolutely I mean they they they are on a schedule and I ah I kind of like this new age version where people are cremated and they might not have a spot in a in a um. 08:13.92 David Howe Yeah. 08:25.17 David Howe They just. 08:27.90 Captain Sad Cemetery etc. But it's just spreading the ashes I think that's much more simple process and a much more personal process than like these kind of like big funerals days I don't know that's just I Guess that's just personal opinion and I'm not very religious so it doesn't mean that much to me to be. 08:40.27 David Howe Yeah, or you sit on like a mantle. Yeah. 08:44.22 alifeinruins I my family's all buried on the same hill like that's like for me that's kind of like the spot because there's there's 4 so cemeteries in Pawne for the 4 bands and so like my ancestors that died after the long walk are are there. So like we're right next to each other although we had to go to tribal council. My uncle did a month or two ago. 08:44.85 Captain Sad Yeah. 08:48.36 David Howe Oh that's cool. 08:48.49 Captain Sad Yeah. 09:03.87 alifeinruins Because people started encroaching on our hill and there was like nothing technical against the rules. But my uncle's like that's that's our spot at least get further because you're starting to get like too close to us and there's at least 36 that need to be buried next. So I mean like we're going to be taking up some space up there but I always like the idea of that tree burial thing where they like wrap you up in a cocoon and they. 09:23.22 David Howe That's cool until Walmart buys the plot fifty years from now and like I we got to move these? um. 09:23.79 alifeinruins With the trees. Oh it's like that. Yeah. 09:23.80 Captain Sad Yeah, and then you. 09:30.90 Captain Sad I think it's cool Carlton that you have that connection to family too because I don't think there I guess there is a place in my family that some of people are buried. But if it's all on one hill I think that's that's super cool and powerful to be all together there in a special place. 09:44.89 David Howe Yeah, it's chi like in the leady situation. 09:48.76 alifeinruins Yeah, there's we have like one fenced off area because there's no markers but those's like where it was like a how much how what's considered a masquerade but it's like a number of my family that died very soon after getting there. Um, and then there's also. 10:02.51 Captain Sad Um. 10:06.60 alifeinruins Like especially early res days with like infants not making it through so like there's a number of those So like there's this really clear it. It kind of talks back like why does nacromatra and like death because it's like I have a place where I can see Well this is these people died because of the daws act these people died because of Indian removal. I Can like go through the Indian laws and be like I can see relatives that were fucking affected by this every time I go Oh you know what? I mean? Um, but even before that when I was kind of thinking like archaeologically and then um about that concept of identity people have heard me talk about the central plane tradition a number of times across. 10:23.52 David Howe Ah. 10:41.50 alifeinruins Kansas and Nebraska same houses same pots everything but there is a difference north of the platte river central plain tradition populations buried people in ossuaries. So very much similar to like woodlands where there's a mound you threw people in it covered up another person dies throw them on the mound covered up south of that line is cemeteries so same people. 10:56.27 David Howe Up. 11:00.92 alifeinruins But 2 very different concepts of dealing with the dead. So there's other ways that this matters as you were saying David about the thing. 11:04.40 David Howe Yeah, no, no, no, that's like ah thinking that's cool like the prigging up the Mississipian mound building things and um, yeah, like bound burials and then pyramid bear like I don't think there's the Egyptian ones have actual bodies in them but Like. Or at least all of them. Ah yeah, like erecting a giant structure for somebody because of like the power they had and stuff is pretty cool and not for the people that didn't have power but um, yeah, just oh. 11:30.96 alifeinruins Yeah, yeah. 11:31.50 Captain Sad Yeah, so Carlton I got a question real quick so they're the same cultural group same cultural beliefs but they just they're not guess they're not the same cultural group but they're they're from the same family I don't know how you describe that. 11:37.57 alifeinruins Um, over. 11:40.80 alifeinruins Yeah, yeah, so it's all the central planes tradition. But there's a difference really in like there's a couples minor differences but to me the biggest ones of identity are like they're burying. They're dead very different. Like the southern style is like a more mississipian nature which kind of tracks with my research but like also this really kind of looks to me early vestiges of the differences between the skidi pawny which is what I am that northern group of ossuaries and the southern group of po you know Southern Pownie because like there's we have different. Ceremony like we we are kind of 2 different tribes mashed into one and I think those that there's vestiges of those differences in our ancestral parts of of Nebraska and Kansas like they were already doing something different. We were doing something different. Um in terms of that identity piece. 12:19.70 Captain Sad 2 12:35.21 Captain Sad That's was really interesting. Sorry David I mean I just had a question about that. 12:38.24 David Howe No, no, no, no, you're good. That's ah, that's a good question. 12:43.57 Captain Sad Um, um. 12:43.79 alifeinruins But for those that are curious the oldest known burial in the Americas is Anzic Child anzic one I don't is there an indigenous name for ansic because like for for kenowwick we have the ancient one I don't know I'm asking you to, um. 12:46.68 David Howe Yeah, let's talk about that I don't know much about it. The ancient one is it. 12:58.28 Captain Sad Yeah, um, let me let me want met. 13:02.00 alifeinruins I don't think so but it's it's the only known clovis age burial. So um, over twelve thousand years ago um deliberately interred. Yep. 13:13.90 Captain Sad Look it in Montana Montana park county mont and yeah, um. 13:15.25 David Howe Clovis. 13:18.70 alifeinruins The the Montana Tribes have to have something for it and it's probably another ancient one I don't know the name of it and this this sort of I want to get roasted but was found with points and ochre all over the place. So it's very intentional. 13:31.41 Captain Sad It's interesting. 13:35.73 Captain Sad Yeah, but it's interesting that that is not causing as much controversy as say like can mcman or anything like that I don't ever hear like Anzic brought up as part of these conversations of nagra etc. Maybe it's because they have good relations with. 13:36.48 alifeinruins Burial. 13:47.69 David Howe Yeah. 13:55.74 Captain Sad I Don't know it's It's interesting. Um, but it's cool to see like the earliest clovis folks are indeed bearing people with a really interesting artifacts etc. 14:07.31 alifeinruins Well Anzic was pretty hot heated because like the family kept the anzics kept the remains they were reburied and I think university of wyoming was involved in some way shape or form I want to say but they were eventually reburied. Um, they brought a bunch of Montana tribes together. 14:13.64 Captain Sad Oof. 14:25.40 alifeinruins That was like so it was its own thing but there was controversy very much around it. Um, back in the day. 14:33.86 Captain Sad Okay, maybe it's just not as fresh as say Kenwick man or anything like that. 14:37.65 alifeinruins Well because Kenawick was federal property so like Anzic like nakra doesn't apply to an za but that did have a happy start because it wasn't it was found on private private property by. 14:43.94 Captain Sad Oh okay. 14:49.44 David Howe Why not? ah. 14:54.58 alifeinruins Private contractors. So not an ara and it wasn't kept in an institution. Basically the family was like we got a dead engine child and it's ours now Gladys and they kept it in their Montana Ranch house but they were able to they were able to. 15:04.20 David Howe Wow Oh cool that is. 15:13.62 alifeinruins I do remember seeing Anzic was reburied multiple tribes took part of it. Yeah, um, 11 local tribes. Yep. 15:16.53 Captain Sad At 2014 yeah it was an inter tribal ceremony. But the the artifacts are yeah, are us are so with the montana historical society so which is kind of interesting. Um. 15:20.35 David Howe Are. 15:27.70 David Howe Clovis. 15:31.57 alifeinruins If they ever get federal funding if it did during covid they're good going back the na for you for um, it shouldn't be making fun of such a serious law because I just finished the Daxford conference last week here at Plimington and it was shit show. 15:35.50 Captain Sad That's going That's ah that's nag brab. Thank yeah. 15:40.88 Captain Sad No, no, no like night press very serious and a very very good law. Yeah, we've check out other episodes on then yeah. 15:49.30 David Howe To shift the comvo. Ah we mentioned just going back to the symbolic culture in the caves with the leady and that's that's pretty big because symbolic culture doesn't really boom until like fifty thousand years ago with humans forty thousand years ago um so like. 15:49.47 alifeinruins Ah, but is very soon. 16:06.38 Captain Sad Um. 16:07.37 David Howe And we always argue like are those neanderthal dots is that is that culture is that not um, now no, Leady's like the hashtag and stuff in the walls over there and they like Hashtag said. 16:10.42 alifeinruins Oh that whole thing. Speaking of those dots I texted Emily Van Alts the other day about a recent paper that came out about how those like what's his faces red dots shit what's his Dave the Bernie Bernie Bernie Fred Dots that's the main thing I talked about. 16:27.66 David Howe Bernie. 16:28.83 Captain Sad Bernie. 16:34.90 alifeinruins There's those early cave paintings with the abstract marks and stuff are an early form of writing and I sent it to Emily and she had things to say and I invited her on the podcast to talk about it so she wants to come on and talk about this rock art research because apparently rock art research is like the wild west if you could say whatever the fuck you want? um. But to that like symbolic what is symbolic culture. Yeah. 16:54.43 Captain Sad I might be a might be a question for another podcast boys. 16:54.50 David Howe Culture that like I think yeah I think it's just something like you can define as like culture like you're like you can see it being symbolic in some way I know it's a not answer. But. 17:01.96 alifeinruins I I just wanted a definition. Yeah, just a definition symbolbolic culture or noma material culture is the ability to learn and transmit behavioral traditions from 1 generation to the next by the invention of things that exist entirely in the symbolic. And didn't fucking answer that. Yeah, however, some evidence and interertal origin of symbolic culture of emerged so okay, cool. So yeah, oh so it's like Kate like symbolic culture also represents cave paintings drawings and. 17:20.50 Captain Sad Yeah, that's a very modern like social social construct kind of thing. But. 17:22.80 David Howe What can you do. 17:37.85 Captain Sad Things like that all right, we'll we'll revisit that on ah another episode. Thanks you y'all for? yeah, thanks for listening. 17:38.75 alifeinruins Art cool that I had fun. This was a cool. This was a cool paper because this came out and we were like how do we talk about this like well we could talk about death I Really wish I'd taken a class on death like that's at boulder. There's like the archeology of death or something. It's like the most. 17:51.76 Captain Sad Same. 17:58.27 David Howe Well also people could just attend the times we hang out together. 17:58.62 alifeinruins Enrolled course. 18:07.67 David Howe Anyway, on that note. Ah, thank you listening? Ah if you have any questions about the and or the noley burials and stuff I would ah suggest you watch Zeke Darwin or at sciences real on Tiktok. He know he knows his stuff really well my friend isaac or our friend isaac I should say. 18:08.82 Captain Sad On that note yet. 18:10.20 alifeinruins V. 18:24.70 alifeinruins I Know is it. 18:26.63 David Howe Ah, keep your eyes out. Um I don't know if he ever runs up said um, will hello it stefan Meload Dot Com man. 18:29.29 Captain Sad Yeah, he came on. Oh no, yeah you I don't think you were um was gonna say also Email Stan Stefan Milo tell him he was on the podcast. Yeah, get. 18:37.96 alifeinruins Yeah, tell him we really I really liked your guest appearance on episode one six 1 of life and ruins b c cs in that emails who doesn't know just so please we'll send you a sticker well end it. We'll reach out to individually and make sure you get that mailing address for that sticker because and we but this is gonna be good. This is gonna be good. All right? Um, with that. 18:58.62 David Howe Ah, rate and review the podcast. You know how to do it. Ah, and yeah with that we're out. 19:02.28 alifeinruins We are out and if you made it this far Connor what is your joke for us today. Oh god. 19:10.50 Captain Sad We might have to cut this one but it's funny I just found out the grim Reaper is pansexual Turns out death turns out death comes for us all. 19:13.52 David Howe Is it though I was gonna ask 1 too. 19:21.10 David Howe I. Wow! All right I got one. We came up with the last night Carlton did you know that Nikolai Tesla had a brother. Let's. 19:32.50 Captain Sad Ah, she recorded another one. 19:35.42 alifeinruins Um. 19:42.00 alifeinruins Now. 19:45.69 David Howe Because he had a transistor. 19:49.47 alifeinruins Definitely can't do the last. We could do the first joke we can absolutely do the first joke. 19:51.58 David Howe Ah, it arguably not as worse as the first out of in don't know if any of those are good. Um. 19:52.22 Captain Sad Oh what's what's the favorite type of bread in Alabama in bread. Yep. 19:57.58 alifeinruins In dread. Could do can keep the rose. Yeah yep, Awesome! Okay, everyone. We are truly out. 20:05.71 Captain Sad But first one we can keep Chris keep the first one cut the sag 1 please cut the seg 1 please cut the second one. 20:13.33 David Howe And to work on that.