00:00.66 alifeinruins So Chris Rachel in that last recording I made a statement that some people should be shot. Can you please get rid of that because that we just can't have that out in the universe. Thank you? Um and welcome back to episode one sixty we're still here talking about the galet are all article. 00:07.39 David Howe Um, yeah, brain. 00:18.22 alifeinruins It's not that like they have an interesting question like that or we are We absolutely get injuries in the in the present when we're replicating stone tool industries. What are those. 00:23.36 John Connor Definitely. 00:35.66 alifeinruins Injuries like in the past is a fantastic question. There's other ways like I'm a segment you can probably do bio archeological evidence to like look for these kinds of injuries in the past in some of these populations that would give us a really good answer the data collection. 00:38.38 David Howe Yeah, yeah. 00:53.60 alifeinruins That's where I get that's where this thing gets wonky where it there. There's a clear fun question behind this that they're trying to answer but it doesn't seem like they're answering it. They have all this data and it seems like they don't know what to do with it I think as the is it one like there. 01:06.23 David Howe Yeah, looking at this table right here table 5 again like it says stitches then stitches and fingers stitches and hands if these were written in answers in a survey I bet someone just said I had to get stitches and didn't specify. 01:06.26 John Connor Exactly. 01:26.21 David Howe But someone then said 9 people said I had stitches in my fingers like so maybe that's like how do you just wrangle all that data you know. 01:31.81 alifeinruins Right? And then cut tendon in fingers like I'd like to see if so I I mean maybe this is in the raw data supplemental data where there's like an explanation I like to know how they got these injuries like minor cuts to rear end. Did you sit on flakes like were you not paying attention like there's some of these that are like actually industry related injuries and then there's just like fucking around and finding out injuries where they're not paying attention, especially like I want to see who of the self reports are injuring themselves. Like is this are we getting most of this data of the injuries are these coming from the novices and intermediates. That's what I want to know and that's from I'm having a hard time saying what's the Relevance. No. 02:17.29 David Howe Is that not a table I just love that testicles on this very fun graphic of figure 1 of just a a pride colored human. What. 02:19.18 John Connor Now. 02:32.23 John Connor Um, um. 02:37.18 David Howe Like the Vitruvian body like at testicles point 29% 02:40.17 alifeinruins It looks like that Jungle Frog you know that used to on the cover of the Nat Geo Magazine know I'm talking about. 02:46.72 David Howe It did um, no injuries to vagina. 02:47.40 John Connor Yeah, okay I'm David the the male dominated survey so you know, um David you had a story. They said you you at least hinted to in the last segment. 02:53.79 alifeinruins Now. 02:55.17 David Howe I mean I'm just saying um you. 03:01.95 David Howe Yeah, this guy that was teaching me some stuff at flint ridge said like someone asked him you ever like racked yourself and he said oh yeah, he said the worst pain he's ever been in. He was doing ah a napping demonstration for like 20 to 30 people is a large crowd. And he said a woman like sat down right in front of him and didn't have any like I guess underwear is the proper term under a skirt that she was wearing and he was distracted by it because like it was right in front of him and he took a huge swing with a moose billet. And it hit him right in the fucking balls and he said that he fell over so hard he was like wincing in pain in front of like 30 people trying to do this demonstration and he said like never again and I was like how'd you recover and he said it took like days. Ah. So I could see how testicle happens I've hit myself in the nuts before um, just on accident by kind of not paying attention but also like things like slip I guess is how it happens like I I'm holding onto something and then it slips and it like just forces itself right? there I don't know or like. 04:10.93 John Connor Yeah time out, Do we want to tell that story without you tell him about guy looking up a girl skirt. Yeah, but you could just say looking at he got distracted by a girl. 04:13.54 David Howe Sitting on a bucket and. 04:19.79 David Howe I Mean that's the the impetus of how he got hurt. 04:25.22 alifeinruins Just practice. Oh. 04:28.42 John Connor Yeah, not looking straight up her skirt is my is my only like yeah ah no I mean okay sorry I just wanted to make sure. 04:31.18 David Howe Who okay I figured that was the key reason why? yes like I can do that again. Ah, Rachel Chris ill I'll try to phrase this so you can just patch it in. Um, he was sitting in front of like 20 to 30 people. And like somebody came and sat down right in front of him in for of reason like he was distracted by them and he just racked himself really hard with the moose billet into the nuts. Yeah. 05:01.62 alifeinruins Yeah, um, yeah, it's just it's just these tables like I don't some like of course like I like figure one napringral locations and frequencies. It's like. 05:16.54 alifeinruins Right? This is predominantly a digit like you're using your hands to make stone tools. Of course you're gonna see more injuries once again I would like to see this figure replicated by skill level. 05:21.98 John Connor Yeah. 05:28.69 John Connor Skill level. Yeah. 05:32.19 alifeinruins Like that's the whole purpose of this right is like how are we teaching our children which they talk about in the discussion. It's like but you've taken all this data some of which you're not necessarily like like characterizing what these levels are like I want to know because of course right? We know like. When I was a kid and learn how to ride a bike you start with training Wheels. You take those off and you crash like I crashed a couple times forgot the hang of it haven't crashed my bike just generally bike riding since right like I totally get while you're learning to flintnap you're gonna have injuries that. 06:07.60 John Connor For sure. 06:07.98 David Howe Um, yeah. 06:09.73 alifeinruins Makes sense and that's what I would have liked to see from this is like let's how do we divide this data by expertise and also by frequency like what do all the grad students look like what do all the like industrial flinappers. What do their injuries look like or how long ago those were like. Taking all these different injuries throwing them into the same pot and saying like here's the results. It's like okay, what if this like the the person that split their thumb open what if that's one of the industry guys. But that happened thirty years ago like that that kind of matters like when did you get these injuries at what skill proficiency did you get them that's going to be a much more meaningful argument to talk about human behavior as it relates to stone tool production than what they've presented here and that's kind of my issue with this article like conceptually this is a great article. 06:43.28 David Howe Yeah. 07:01.95 alifeinruins Does it belong in american antiquity like 1 of our top tier journals I'm on the fence about that like this I am not sure if it belongs in american antiquity because it comes off as not totally baked like this is maybe like an overeasy egg. 07:18.49 John Connor Yeah. 07:20.35 alifeinruins Like some people like it but some people need a little bit more like consistency in this because I don't know what to do with this data to me. This is very much This isn't answering anything and that's what I have a problem with because they don't take this data meaningfully and apply it and they don't look at. 07:26.43 John Connor Yeah. 07:40.40 alifeinruins Archeological investigations. It's very much experimental. So maybe this could have gone in like the journal of archeological practice. 07:46.27 John Connor Or science or a journal of likeological science. 07:47.21 David Howe Maybe but ah something I was just thinking of yeah JS sort of um like it's kind of a framework though since like no one has done this before excuse me hang on. It's kind of a framework though because like no one's done this before. 07:48.83 alifeinruins Nature. 08:04.33 David Howe And the sense that like if you were to write a paper about like you know how many ostelopis or Homo Habilus or Homo Erectti have lacerations or cuts to their you know finger bones or whatever. Um, you can then say like well according to modern nappers of these surveyed X percent head. Injuries to their finger bone. So therefore we could expect to see that much in Homo Erectus or more. So Now there's an official American antiquity thing to reference and sight would be my own. Yes. 08:31.66 alifeinruins But I wouldn't even cite this if I did that because like any sort of archeological data I'm going to get at this I'm be able to tell gender I'm to be able to tell age sorry I'm going to generally be able to tell biological sex I'll be able to tell age and use those as references for how often they're doing this behavior like this like. This is that's just such a weird table production of as we've discussed and and like I totally understand what you're coming from but like you don't fuck around at american antiquity. It's not you don't do like conceptual low-hanging fruit stuff with even out with even without. Results that are meaningful. That's that's the issue with it that I that I find it's like we surveyed it's basically we surveyed 163 people. This is what they said and here's some cool figures and charts. 09:10.49 John Connor Yeah. 09:22.10 John Connor Yeah I do think this data needs to be out in the world and and accessible to people but I don't I think the medium and of in terms of American antiquity like this hard hitting Journal that's supposed to talk about the cutting edge of like no pun intended of um. 09:39.71 John Connor Of science and what we're learning in archeology this doesn't this doesn't fit that mold me like I want this data out there I want to be able to look at it and maybe quantify it in my own sort of way but as it is right now. It is not something that I would use and there are theoretical implications as you kind of mentioned Carlton. Are are not substantiated during this It's ah it is an absolute stretch to say what they're learning from this dataset is that we are. We had to people in the past had to like significantly change their habits around flitnapping because they would die which is which is part of their kind of conclusion is. Ah, part of this. 10:15.29 alifeinruins Okay, okay so I'm looking at something now I open up supplemental information so they have this information of how long you've been napping for what age. Did you start napping for what level? do you consider yourself so there we go so they have self-reported information. 10:15.61 David Howe Yeah I agree. 10:33.65 alifeinruins How many times a week do you nat? How long do you nap processions like there's data is available that they could have used which yeah, it's there. So it's like I guess what do we I guess we could write a better fucking article with this that sorry we the 3 of us could. 10:41.32 David Howe I mean I guess it's there. But yeah. 10:52.00 alifeinruins Write a ah more poignant piece about this this article based on their data like everything we've just complained about I just complained about I I guess I could go to this and like this is what this data means when you'd look at it this this way. 11:11.12 John Connor Yeah. 11:11.94 alifeinruins See hold that how often do you currently end yourself very rarely. Only once did I require stitches when I use steel knives then I cut myself. That's the expert. 11:14.10 David Howe Ah up. 11:23.26 John Connor That Yeah, that's that's that's interesting. 11:28.30 alifeinruins And this person same person I definitely cut myself more out I was learning to nat. But at the same time. It was not the custom to teach people with gloves. So like there's some and then usually respondents are like yes I've hurt myself. No of course. Yes, but mostly quarying So like there's there's additional data here that needs to be sussed out that isn't Present. And these tables and graphs. 11:50.69 David Howe Um, something we talked about this summer it was me todderllard me and Spencer I don't remember who was that labrell. Um my than Jacob actually just sitting around napping. And like we kind of just all agreed that people especially based on the flakes you find at clovis sites and are there cake sites like they were very efficient at busting off the proper and like largest flakes possible to get. This like utilize as much as possible. Not just have a bunch of debotage on the floor. Um, so like that being said people every day men and women and private children as well had to know how to nap because it's a fundamental survival skill for them to make any tool and it's something you just get really efficient at whereas today. Modern neppers. 12:29.29 John Connor For sure. 12:37.30 David Howe Have so much extra stone to mess with that. We have the time to like fuck up and we try to make it look artsy whereas for them. It's life. You know. 12:47.32 John Connor Yeah, absolutely and and so this if they would apply this data to modern nappers in a like. Ah if we go to elementary schools should we teach flint napping to elementary kids. Maybe that's no, maybe that's where this is applicable but applying it to the past at this point is like that's just. 2 different data sets like you're saying like having to survive and do this every single day is different than doing this for pleasure with buddies and drinking beer. You know that is that is 2 different types of people in 2 different locations. There's just there's so many variables in that that I don't think they're really. 13:04.73 David Howe Yeah. 13:13.64 David Howe Right. 13:23.88 John Connor This is not applicable to the archaeological record as we as we understand it. 13:26.61 alifeinruins Yeah, that's that's my issue with it like it's a cool survey. There's better ways. This data could have been handled more meaningful ways and apply it to their archeological record but it's just not there and the way they talk about there could have been fatal injuries. It's like yeah. 13:26.83 David Howe M. 13:46.44 alifeinruins And people in the past did have medicine like these aren't you know primitive dumbass people that just let things get infected like we've seen this throughout the archaeological record of of group care. Basic medicinal practices knowledge about the local landscape and also like this isn't the only way people are going to hurt themselves. Like there are plenty of practices in the past from like hunting gathering exploring new landscapes that they can get hurt like this is menial compared compared now if there's an argument in here that they talk about you know like maybe this would have delayed learning for children. It's like right? as Connor mentioned. But where's the discussion in that on the modern ethnographic like there's so much data that could come in with a simple search on Google to support like well the saw bushman this is when they teach their children. How to flinap. That's what this is missing which is fine but this is american antiquity and that's like. Ah, this is weird for american antiquity where it's like there's so much missing from this to make it meaningful this this this shouldn't have gone in american antiquity. 14:46.62 John Connor Yeah. 14:54.94 alifeinruins Maybe they were hurting for articles because I was just looking like they submitted it November revised it in February to got published in March so maybe we just missed a window where we could just thrown anything we wanted on american intick when you got it in David we could have got you published real fucking quick. 15:04.74 John Connor Yeah. 15:06.86 David Howe Yeah, but so here's the thing like it. It takes a lot of work and effort to do that and I have zero of that So like props to them for getting it published but also it it is a little like odd of a. Thing to see in American antiquity. Maybe we just haven't seen others before like maybe there's an article about like what glue like dries the fastest on on pottery or something but ah yeah, it. Ah, the funniest thing to me though and this is just an American antiquity thing but the sheer amount of citations that are in every sentence. Ah, which makes it really hard for like non-academics to read any journal but like yeah, kind of to the point of that like. 15:48.94 alifeinruins But how many of them are modern. 15:56.64 David Howe All of this like so many citations to make these statements based on like arbitrary data given by like old men. 16:05.87 alifeinruins There's there's not a single citation for 2022 there's 2 citations for 2021 like 6 citations for 2020 and it's mostly Aaron citing himself so they're not even citing like really current Lithic manufacturer fucking literature. 16:22.70 John Connor Yeah, and I'm going to be the Devil's advocate and say maybe that's that's the novelty of this paper is that there's there's nothing that's been talked about it. So I think there is like a ah beauty to the novelty of it I think the execution. Ah. 16:27.39 David Howe Um. 16:31.65 alifeinruins Of Aaron you're just citing himself like even all the 2019 citations are mostly Aaron and his buddies. 16:37.65 David Howe Well, it's it's gala who wrote the paper. So I mean it's makes sense to cite somebody because you don't want to plagiarize stuff that's already been said by that guy by Aaron but you know. 16:47.41 alifeinruins But Aaron is his mentor Aaron's his advisor and like we've interviewed people on this podcast that have published on stone tool production within the past couple years like there's this did. That's what this is like flagging to me is like this isn't someone. 16:47.52 John Connor Yeah. 16:52.52 David Howe Well to Devil's advocate I. 17:04.97 alifeinruins Like there's there's recent literature on this like on handedness like we had lana on who's published and all of her friends that have talked about stone tool production as it comes to handedness none of that's here none of the archeological work is in here like it's it's it's it's met and Aaron's team just throwing out more stuff citing themselves and it's just like but there's there's so like this could have been such a great paper. 17:28.55 John Connor Yeah, unp principle I would I would agree they mean it's the it's the execution that we we find lacking I Think on that note, we'll take a break and we'll come back and maybe talk about something different who knows will be re backc.