00:00.00 alifeinruins And welcome back to episode one fifty nine we're still here with Dr Andrew King Kella and so one of the conversations that has sprouted this episode is like my recent work with professor charles be of underwater science at iu down in the dominican republic and then your episode which I mentioned during the last segment on your. Dissertation work where you were down in Belize every summer working on maya sanotess and like doing underwater archeology and some of the most like rural backwater. No roads trudging through the goddamn tropical forest with like full scuba equipment. 00:36.34 Andrew Yes. 00:38.20 alifeinruins And having to like at times sleep outside like your story of like you got your hammock set up. You're zipped up and then you're hearing like Jaguars across the sinote. It's like what the kind of Indiana Jones Mickey Mouse bullshit have you did you get yourself into that. 00:47.30 Andrew Oh yes. 00:54.75 Andrew Ah, you know I think the term indiana jones Mickey Mouse Bullshit is really a great explanatory term for that. So yeah, you know it was. It was a crazy idea that worked if that makes sense like I I was so fortunate when i. First went to grad school I knew my good friend Lisa Lucero and Lisa has worked in Belize forever and ever and we're just close friends and we worked together really great. She had gotten this new project in the valley of peace area of Belize which is sort of central Belize and we were looking at the map of this place and there were like 25 sanotes in a line. At the top of the Map. So there is one sinote every like picture it like every one notete every like half mile like just in a long row because it had to do with the um there was like a geologic fault there so you have these sootes in a row and I had just already taken scuba anyways and I was just I've always been a water person. Like I'm really good at swimming I was on the swim team I was a lifeguard for a while like all that kind of stuff and I was like Lisa what if I do the sinotess for my master's thesis you know and she's like yeah that'd be great and that next year I'm like Lisa what if I dive of one of the sanotes wouldn't that be cool. And she's like sure and so she and I just planned out this like crazy andrews going diving ah in a note day in the middle of nowhere and and that's what we did the the first. 02:24.74 Andrew Time I ever do a sonote was in I believe it was 9098 it was me and one of the other students actually had her scuba diving certification had just gotten it. Um I only had maybe like 10 dives under my belt at the time or something like that something crazy. But I will say I was very careful. I planned everything out like really slowly and carefully and the dive ultimately worked but the getting there was wild I think it was it was something nuts like. 6 ix miles of walking with ah with a backpack that has all your stuff like a heavy backpack that has like your tent and all your water and all your equipment all your regular archeology stuff and then on top of it. You're carrying your bc and your regulator and your fins and then I remember just. Carrying my tank across my back. You know, Atlas carrying the world style and I remember that the air I breathed out of that tank was from New Mexico we had filled the tanks in New Mexico so I breathed New Mexico air as I dove the sin out days and Belize for the very first time. 03:36.90 alifeinruins I so timeout timeout to talk because my my first question is like where did you fill up the tanks every day. So did you like like truck down a bunch of prefilled tanks from New Mexico 03:44.61 Andrew No, no so this this project grew as the years went by the first year was two tanks. That's it. That's all so we only did 2 dives. Ultimately, we just the so the getting there because we had to like. Get to this out days and sort of map them in the first place you know you? we're in nowhere we're we're taking machetes and just trying to get there and then once you get there. It's like okay, we're going to do a little archeology. We're Goingnna do a little bit of excavation you know and then okay, Andrew's going to dive and then um. 04:04.99 alifeinruins Right. 04:21.89 Andrew What we did me and Anna was her name Anna Osterholt she she was my very great dive buddy and we did 1 initial dive that we planned out to sixty feet we were gonna look at these certain areas we came up and then we had enough air I remember I think I'd used a little more air than her that we switched tanks. And then did a second dive again the second time to like I think less that time thirty feet or something like that so we didn't go down to the bottom of the sinote we didn't even know exactly how deep it was it turned out the sinotte was two hundred and forty feet deep so we we only went to sixty feet 04:53.20 alifeinruins Good. That's crazy so like for for everyone listening like a sonote or these like freshwater pools and and these like limestone environments like Yucatan Belize Costa Rica and like there's. Some in the caribbean too like it's the same lame limestone formations. I forget what they're called in the dominican there' they're sinotess but they calls to call them something different and whatever but they're but they're filled with fresh water and they're like extremely important for many of these. Ah. 05:14.16 Andrew Um, yeah. 05:18.83 Andrew Right? but. 05:28.60 alifeinruins Archeological and even like modern cultures like that's where you get fresh water from in these environments. Um, so like I'm trying to think like a sixty foot dive so you're going through all that air and like less than 30 minutes to get that deep. Yeah. 05:32.31 Andrew Yep. 05:42.55 Andrew Yeah, it was somewhere in there I want to say it was maybe about 30 minutes or so and it was half a tank right? So it's not the whole you know? Um, but yeah, so sootes you know in terms of seeing them in your mind they look like mini lakes. 05:47.32 alifeinruins Right. 05:55.17 alifeinruins Yeah. 05:56.89 Andrew May be like two hundred feet across a bigger one would be like 3 or four hundred feet across would be pretty big and they very indepth the shallowest 1 ever worked in with six feet deep and again the deepest was 240 so and they have sheer sides so even going down sixty feet there's no place to really stand. You're you're just going sort of down the sidewall. 06:00.57 alifeinruins Right. 06:14.97 alifeinruins Right. 06:16.48 Andrew You know of the snugge just sort of looking at stuff looking for stuff. There were little niches little crevices little bits and pieces that stuck out and on one of those little tiny shelves. It was small. It was a picture it like one foot by one foot there was a little broken Maya Poturd so at least there was one so on that very first dive we found one Maya Pot shirt which is more than enough for proof of concept to say hey the ancient maya through artifacts into this sinnote? Yeah yep. 06:47.93 alifeinruins That's bonkers and so like two tank dive you hook whole things and your equipment like that's that's a lot right? Um, six miles into into the tropical forest just to do this too quick like 1 an exploratory like how deep does this go? Oh we can't see the bottom fuck. 06:53.96 Andrew Yep Yep Yeah. Nobody knows Yeah, that's what we can see the bottom that is exactly how. 07:05.88 alifeinruins Ive I could I it's like maybe something's on the edge that we could see because we're not goingnna do the bottom of this it like a 200 like if it's two hundred and forty feet deep you're talking about like you're gonna need like 1 of those 2 tank packs you're gonna have to switch halfway through and it's like a 3 hour long dive with the mandatory safety stop of at least 45 minutes at the point right? like that's. 07:20.50 Andrew Um, yeah, yeah. 07:24.96 alifeinruins That's like a plan that's like a Nat Geo invested project to get to the bottom That's some of a bit. Holy shit. Okay, all right? Yeah, okay explain let's go into it. Okay. 07:29.65 Andrew And that's what we ultimately did ah years years later so all right? So I did that initial dive in 98 or whatever and then every summer after really all the way until 2008 I would do some version of that where I'd like dive a little more or I or I started to find that I could get a ton done with snorkeling because I'm a good swimmer so I could hold my breath I could go down like twenty feet I could I could get a lotted like the initial survey stuff done just snorkeling. It was much easier to move through the jungle didn't have to carry all that crap. But. Um, in god in 2010? Um, basically as the years went by the story sounds pretty damn good right? There's this guy out here working on the Sootes. He's diving nobody even knows really of these sonotes and so Lisa ultimately applied for a national geographic grant. And they gave it to us and we were. We were able to hire a handful of national geographic divers and I got to go dive with them and that was one of the absolute joys of my professional life because those guys were so damn good that like they had nothing to prove. You know what? I mean that they're not. They're not there to not show you something or be secretive. They were like come over here Andrew you know because they knew I wasn't as good as them right? they're they're there to make me better. So I dove with them and then they went to town so they had like they dove with try mix. Um rebreathers. 08:59.90 Andrew All the you know super super stuff and um on one of those dives I remember going down to a hundred feet and staying there and then watching them and they had they had really big lights like all this stuff right? and then watching them go. All the way down further to the bottom of the sanote and we actually found that there was a huge cave at the bottom of the sanote that went in it into the mountain. So I watched them dive down down down in and gone and then I was just floating there at a hundred feet 09:24.87 alifeinruins I got. 09:36.69 Andrew In a maya sinotte and like I had my moment I was like man I'm in the Maya Underworld here I am in shabalba here. It is welcome to Shaalba Andrew Kingkea you know and I just had that moment and then I slowly like went back up. So yeah. As the years went on. We got more people on on the project like very experienced divers that would help help me out work with me. Um, search some of the other sinotes I would kind of do some and they'd sort of do some but it was excellent. Having people of that kind of caliber. It's just awesome to work with. People like that you learn so fast. You know when you work with people like that so that was that was really really thrilling. 10:13.55 alifeinruins Right? Dude that's incredible. But I can kind of like so when I did that this trip with Charles like I only had six open water dives under my belt. You know like I had like the 4 we I did into DR just get certified in the two when we went to sunset ponds out here. Do some work. 10:26.75 Andrew Um, yeah. 10:31.90 Andrew M. 10:33.43 alifeinruins And then but like so but I had 1 of the most some of the I have over a decade's worth of like archeological experience. So I'm down there trying to teach students how to do stuff but like you know I'm floating as I'm writing on my fucking board like I have no control over my buoyancy at that point the students are all trying to help me like just manage my under like scuba stuff. 10:37.30 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 10:45.16 Andrew Right. 10:51.36 alifeinruins I'm trying to teach them how to measure it was like this really funny like reversal of like I am out of my element I can know as much about archeology down here as possible without that extra layer of like I can't help them if I can't not be doing backlips trying to show them how to do simple shit right. 10:57.96 Andrew Yep. 11:03.62 Andrew Yeah what's so what's so funny is in my early days right after I did that initial dive in the sanottes in ninety eight I think it was the next summer I worked with Charlie Beaker too and I was you right? and it was on I totally was and. It was on a shipwreck project. But um, the story was just the same I came down there to the shipwreck project thinking like ah I'll be somewhere in the middle you know like it like I'll be like there'll be other people kind of like me who. Don't have that much diving experience but a decent mind archeology experience but I was wrong I was like I by far had the most archeological experience and by far the least amount of dive experience. So I was like this funny outlier but I brought. As I'm sure you did too a certain skill set that was really really necessary that was really helpful to the project. Yeah. 11:55.40 alifeinruins I right? Yeah now it was I I am kind of bummed because like while I was down there I was working I was still working on my advanced. So like all my dives I was doing checked off like an advanced certification of what we were doing but when we went to the captain kid which I was really excited actually to work on. They're like. Well there's a hundred foot drop here on this reef cliff like this is where you can get your deep dive in so we're just going to take you do that instead of work but I was like but this is a fucking pirate shit like I actually kind of want to work on this. They're like no, we're doing the coral and like the hundred foot cliff was fantastic like that was easily one of those beautiful moments in my life and i'd. 12:17.33 Andrew Um, yeah. 12:20.16 Andrew Yeah. 12:31.59 alifeinruins Was like fuck it. Yeah I don't need to see a pirate ship. This will always be here but that one hundred foot dive fuck it that was incredible. 12:36.62 Andrew I I think you chose wisely because um, a lot of times a lot of times what people don't realize is a shipwreck itself after having been there for like 400 years and been pummeled by the ocean a lot of times doesn't look like much. You know a lot times. Can't even see a lot of times. It's just like oh you see these like rocks in this coral That's the that's the wreck you're like I only see some coral you know so. 12:58.80 alifeinruins After working on like yeah after like we did like 6 different sets and it was all like concreted cannons from like different time periods like that's all as shipwreck was was like okay so I just missed 2 giant mounds of concrete cannons from the 1700 s cool suite. It looks. 13:04.26 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 13:09.70 Andrew Um, yep, no yeah, no the hundred foot wall dive is pretty sweet man I would I would do that. So yeah in terms of. 13:15.34 alifeinruins Little different than the bombards I just saw the other day. So yeah I'll take the hundred foot coral 13:24.91 alifeinruins Ah, apparently the guy that started this like world save the like Manta Ray conservation I forget what? what this organization is but their whole thing is just a Manta Rays allegedly the guy that started this foundation did that same dive and saw manta Ray but it was one of those like. 13:33.13 Andrew Ah. 13:43.30 alifeinruins His camera wasn't working so it couldn't get a photo of it. So it's really like the most like elaborate long con to get someone to prove to people. He saw man around that trip. But apparently that's that's where it happened So okay so I kept looking behind me in the open ocean like maybe this man and Rays come and maybe I'll get to see it but hoping. 13:43.87 Andrew Yeah. 13:53.48 Andrew Ah, yeah, right hoping hoping? Um, oh just you know you? ah you know if you're really into this. 14:01.73 alifeinruins But yeah as you're saying. 14:09.13 Andrew And I think you know this the hard skill set to get is the archeology skill set you know, ah you can get better at diving over time. So and I think Charlie used to say this I think a lot of people would say this. It's like it's easier to turn an archeologist into a diver than the other way around rights. Yeah. 14:11.88 alifeinruins And stuff. 14:22.70 alifeinruins He that's the first thing he fucking said to me when I told him I was interested. He was just like yeah it's easier to turn a diver into it's easier to turn an archeologist into a diver than a diver gen archaeologist like sweet well turn me into a diver then i. 14:28.60 Andrew Yeah, yeah, and yeah I took his advice even long after I'd left and so what I would do is the years rolled by working at the car blanca pools and Belize or whatever. I would take classes to I take like one dive class a year. Even if that where it's like oh I'd get my advanced open water. Oh I'd get my um, ah nitrox certification. Whatever you know I'd go through it and then ultimately about boy at this point about eight years ago I was like. I'm going to get my dive master certification and that's what I got right? and that was a real feeling of accomplishment because dive masters a thing the other ones you can get you know couple weekends, you're good dive master you you got to put in the effort and I was. 15:09.71 alifeinruins That. 15:20.45 Andrew It was the last great academic ish thing I ever did if that makes sense I was like 40 or so when I started doing even like 43 or something um, and ah I was like proud of myself you know and I'm like dude I'm a dive master like this is awesome. Ah, so I recommend sort of year by year. Just if you're into it. You know you just stick with it and take those classes and it and it was It's really helpful. 15:43.41 alifeinruins Right? Yeah and like all the students he has down here like all the undergrads their dive masters and like after we left 3 stayed to get their instructional certificates. So like he has like this mill of like he takes a student from like. 15:55.46 Andrew Oh damn Yeah, he. 16:02.98 alifeinruins Freshman year all the way up gets him completely trained whether it's an archeology biology animal behavior. He has his little groups but he makes sure all of them can teach the dive classes and he has safety officers out there like he has a self-contained system. 16:05.52 Andrew Yeah. 16:15.59 Andrew Um, yeah. 16:15.95 alifeinruins And that's why all the students end up as like this state underwater archeologist somewhere or like they work for Texas a and m or South Carolina where he's making those kids professionals and I was just like I want this so bad. 16:19.97 Andrew Ah, yeah. 16:27.36 Andrew Yeah, he he had that mill the better part of twenty five years ago like when I was on his project all the other students were that you know they were all that. That's why they were like so good at diving all that stuff and I was kind of this weird outsider because yeah I was sort of like having a moment in their fish bowl. You know, um. And it was It was very interesting that was another time when I learned a lot about diving from those guys they were. They were very competent. 16:48.91 alifeinruins And I bet so outside of of the sanotes and the shipwreck you did with with Charles what other kind of underwater archeology have you done in your career. 17:00.53 Andrew Those are really the 2 big ones I mean I'm I'm I'm trying to think I mean the sinotte thing was kind of like all right? you go every year for several years we would we would be doing that and that's kind of the the the 1 they chisel on my tombstone you know here lies Andrew can kello this toote guy. Um. The the shipwreck was actually in Northern California it was the pomona shipwreck which was in in Northern California on Fort Ross Cove and that is some chili dive and my friend like that was um, chili that is a 7 and 7 wetsuit still freezing your ass off like. 17:33.46 alifeinruins Jesus. 17:36.27 Andrew It was so cold I think I want to say the water was like I don't know 48 50 you know somewhere in there and it was like ah was it was brutally cold. That's the main thing I remember from working on the Pomona. It's like I I'm freezing I'm still freezing. You know. 17:39.94 alifeinruins Right. 17:51.35 alifeinruins Dude, we did a freshwater diet in like early April at sunset ponds here and it was same kind of thing but we had the 7 mills on and like well you'll be fine but like your face doesn't have a wood suit on it and like that's what I remember most is like. 17:55.17 Andrew Yeah, yeah. 18:02.34 Andrew No, it doesn't yeah. 18:07.21 alifeinruins Water getting stuck underneath the hood and sitting on my forehead and having the worst fucking ice cream hat I ever had like I was and I was I was just I was miserable I was like I'm gonna fucking leave and they're like you just need to wait three more minutes and they were like treadmill minutes of like waiting to go numb in my forehead. 18:13.15 Andrew It's instant exactly you're just like yeah that's right, That's that's. 18:25.50 alifeinruins To feel comfortable. 18:26.45 Andrew That's so funny because that your interior Monologue is like the rantings of an insane person. You're just like I'm so cold I am so fucking cold I cannot do this anymore I am leaving right now because fuck this place and fuck you and fuck you and fuck them because fuck this you know and then you stay. 18:39.70 alifeinruins And and then you're just sitting there and it's not like gradually get better. It's just like suddenly it's like okay your face is numb and I was like oh sweet this is this is fine. But then you hit that thermoline and just start skin I'm like no fuck that I'm staying above seventeen feet 18:43.61 Andrew Yeah, and then you just but on the inside. Yeah yeah, yeah, it's right now. 18:55.71 alifeinruins Um, only say at seventeen feet not of you going to like splash my toes in there to mix up the water fuck that the cold water can stay down there. 19:01.54 Andrew Because you're ah your body is just screaming like don't do this to me anymore. This is awful and then you're trying to like write something down on like a waterproof paper or something else. Yeah yeah. 19:10.12 alifeinruins With the fucking gloves on and it's just miserable. We went up and they're like let's switch out they like we're going to wait up here because we did like 15 minutes and we still had like at least half a tank left or like. 19:21.58 Andrew No. 19:24.65 alifeinruins We went in with like thirty two hundred psi we came out up after 15 minutes with 1600 so we had about like a thousand to play with and like we'll just be here for 5 minutes and then we can do a second dial'll count for 2 and I was like okay I'll be right back just put in my snorkel and I just like sat blow the water with my dive computer above the surface was like I'm not letting my face thaw. 19:28.90 Andrew Right. 19:40.19 Andrew Um, yeah, right. 19:44.33 alifeinruins Like I'm not doing that 5 minutes again so I'd rather just sit here and just stare at nothing for 5 minutes breathing out of my circle and like just tap me when you're ready for us to go down. They'll put in the respirator and sink. 19:47.93 Andrew That Yeah, it's just torturous man and ah God it brings it all back that that face chill and what you're saying about the ice cream headache. Yeah, it gets. It's like right in the center of the. Forehead You know it is. It's chilly. 20:08.57 alifeinruins And like couple weeks before it' like we used to certify students at at sunset ponds. But it's like doing the mass clear in the water and I was like oh it can't be that fucking battles like no I can do it and he' like Carlton do you respect me as a professional I'm like okay yeah, you're right? It was like 1 of those moments like okay I guess there is something to this if like. 20:16.70 Andrew Um, yeah. 20:26.85 alifeinruins Would rather send students to the dominican republic to certify rather than driving 45 minutes in a pond in April and then once we had that experience like oh no wonder they don't fucking do this anymore. This probably drove students away from the program because this is what they thought this hell was like I couldn't imagine doing a mass clear when all of a sudden now. My. 20:30.50 Andrew Um, yeah. 20:38.20 Andrew Right. 20:45.15 alifeinruins Eyes are now like ° colder than they were a second ago. 20:46.60 Andrew Um, yeah, like it's brutal. It's brutal I I can't take it. Yeah. 20:51.25 alifeinruins Shit you got me out of rant all right? Well we're gonna go. We'll be right back with segment 3 We'll be right back after these messages.