00:00.00 alifeinruins Welcome back to episode welcome back to episode one. Oh god my brain David go. 00:00.00 Josh Welcome back home. So. 00:05.85 David Howe Ah, welcome back to episode one fifty eight of a life podcast. We here with Josh Heron ah and last time we just kind of talked about the military and and job. But I'd love to know when you got to Georgia Southern what was your undergrad experience like and like you know, research wise and kind of stuff are you doing. 00:24.17 Josh So when I finally you know got my collective crap together. Um I volunteered in the lab quite a bit and it led me to connect with with who I consider to be my mentor now. Dr Jared Wood um he's an archeologist at Georgia Southern ah and I I just kind of tried to you know, stick to him like glue because I could he's one of those guys that just knows everything like he's he's so smart that he I guess got bored in archaeology and co-authored a paper with a biologist at Georgia Southern about an invasive gecko species. Yeah, you know what? I mean like he's one of those. He just knows literally everything there is to know and um I was lucky enough to to be able to work under him and learn under him and the other greats at George Southern really really dedicated staff there which is. 00:59.39 alifeinruins Oh my god. 01:18.80 Josh Awesome to see they truly care about this it' this it's a small ah it's a small department there's more students but it's a small department and they're able to individually get with the students and you don't really get to know them? Um I ended up violent I ended up doing the field school. On the site that actually ended up being my thesis site and we me Dr Wood and another student his name was val we volunteered and put in the research on some of the stuff and ended up being able to co-author a paper with Dr Wood on it and present it at the george archaeological society. 01:52.89 David Howe Ah. 01:53.20 Josh And excuse me being ah a nontraditional student. You know when I finally graduated like fourteen years later um I went to Dr Wood and the faculty and I was just like you know hey I own a house here I'm in my 30 s. 02:08.48 Josh Um, just got divorced I think it would be too hard to go somewhere else for grad school. Would you guys let me come here turns out as much as I liked him and you know was trying to learn from him I had taken like 1 of Dr Wood's courses so it worked out to where I was like you know, not relearning the same stuff which is you know why they want you to go their schools. 02:24.48 David Howe Um, yeah. 02:28.38 Josh So I was lucky enough to get to do that and start grad school there at Georgia Southern Very cool. 02:33.39 alifeinruins So very cool. Um, what site did you work on as part of your field school. 02:38.43 Josh Ah, it was. It's a site on private property in scribbin County Georgia the landowner is a super awesome guy. Um, he he wants it to forget what it's called but basically become a protected area. You know. When when he passes I guess you know it won't get sold and chopped up and and all that stuff. So he's been in contact with tons of people and um, it's like six hundred something acres is huge site. 02:54.34 David Howe O. 02:58.60 alifeinruins Yeah, okay Josha What site did you do your field school on. 03:43.92 David Howe Yeah. 03:44.50 alifeinruins That's that's awesome. Did you guys focus on both of them or did you. 04:00.66 David Howe Um, what's it like digging like a mixed context kind of site like that. 04:11.21 David Howe Okay, wow. 04:12.78 alifeinruins Oh shit. 04:22.75 David Howe Yeah, damn um, is it cut. Oh you, you go. 04:24.53 alifeinruins So I also can say so you did you do your thesis specifically on the historics and and or did did you do some other sort of research or. 04:29.70 Josh So this was a site. It was private land in Sccrivin County Georgia something like six hundred acres um the landowner was was an acquaintance of Dr Woods that he'd spoken to over the years and wanted the land to revert into I forget what it's called like a like a. 04:46.38 alifeinruins Contest his views. 04:48.16 Josh Managed area by the Dnr or something you know where it wouldn't be chopped up and sold. Um, there's several several occupation possible occupation sites on the land. So you know it's it's right near a confluence of streams. Um I'm not going to go into super deep detail since it is private land. But. It's it's a really great site and there's prehistoric and historic components. 05:15.18 Josh Well initially we I don't know what they've done so far you know after I've left but it was the the historic component was what was really focused. 05:20.69 alifeinruins So ah, for those who are not of us who are not like ah familiar with that. What is stance out and what kind of theory does he have that you were kind of hoping to contest or do. 05:33.29 Josh Um, I'll tell you this I have enough chert to do 8 or 9 theses on that on that site. So and maybe like a total of like 200 historic artifacts. So pretty pretty challenging. 06:04.35 Josh So I was I was mainly focused on trying to prove stand south wrong which is a lofty goal. Um it well not I won't say prove him wrong I long story. Yeah yeah, well I mean Stan South and said him himself said. 06:15.20 David Howe Yes, a lot of it. 06:18.10 alifeinruins Ah, fuck. 06:20.54 Josh My sample size is small, Please go out and try to prove me wrong. We need more sites to make my theories correct. Um and I don't know if it's fortunately or unfortunately I did all you know I did everything but the metal detection and then I was like oh my God I'm going to prove Stan South Wrong This isn't even close to any of this site. Ah. Site types did the metal detection. It fits squarely in the frontier Pattern So Stand South Winds Again. So. 06:49.90 alifeinruins So and is this an absence of like any sort of structure or anything like that. This is just like focusing squarely on where people through all their stuff. 06:57.68 Josh Stan South was he focused primarily on colonial site formation processes. Um, mainly with with the use of refuse disposal. Um, he got it. He got it so down Pat oh my god can't I can't believe you asked me this if Dr Wood listens to this podcast and I'm wrong I'll never hear the end of it. Um, but he be mainly focused on the the refuse disposal. Um, he was able to come up with the Brunswick pattern which was basically saying hey this is a british colonial site based on the refuse disposal. He could even tell you where the front and back doors of a building were based on the refuse disposal. 07:20.20 alifeinruins So we don't talk about historic archeology much on here. Um, just because we haven't done a ton of it. Oh do you? What would? Yeah, what would you? What would you tell someone who is wanting to study historic archeology like how would you get them excited about this. 07:25.68 David Howe Here. Go off. 07:32.74 Josh Um, he also focused a lot on ceramics getting the mean ceramic date which is annoying because I initially thought that archeology had no math I'm really bad at math. Turns out, it's like all math. So so I was bamboozled from from a gick go. But yeah, basically it fell into 2 site types the carolina pattern which was a more domestic site and the frontier pattern and he did this through his artifact groups and the percentages that were present in the refuse disposal. So the carolina pattern focused a lot more on like. 08:06.50 David Howe Oh. 08:08.54 Josh Kitchen stuff and ceramics and the frontier pattern to focus more on things like nails and and outdoorsy I'm using finger quotes here kind of stuff. 08:20.62 Josh Yeah, where we are. So yeah I mean there there are often structures but there were 0 structures where I was and I was still able to fit it squarely into the into the frontier pattern bait but just based on the dispo the refuse disposal. 08:31.65 David Howe Yeah, ah. 08:38.76 Josh I Mean that may have changed with further work done out of there but when I was you know when I stopped it was. That's what my data showed me. 08:43.48 alifeinruins What what is what a sentence. But. 08:48.87 David Howe Ah I don't know why that made me laugh. 08:51.40 Josh You. 09:00.43 David Howe It's just Naep really nick nut. 09:00.81 Josh So I didn't even know that I wanted to do historical archeology whenever we were doing this paper as an undergrad I initially was like hey I want to do the prehistoric stuff and Dr will was like no big dog. You're gonna do the historic stuff. So turns out I loved it. Um, the ceramics are wild. 09:01.84 alifeinruins Talking about sexy archeology and lead balls. 09:08.74 David Howe Yeah, my bad I'm canceled. 09:10.41 alifeinruins Oh. 09:15.77 David Howe Oh you might? yeah my apologies. 09:20.49 Josh I have a favorite ceramic. It's mocaware mokleware is made well, it's characterized by its brown denritic patterns. Um, those patterns come from a mixture of urine and tobacco juice. So yeah, so ah, a I wonder who thought. I'm gonna pee on this and spit on it and see what happens and then Matt's market it but I always out. There's a piece in a collection at um, the augusta lab David did is a a true mowa and I'll pass it around kind of talk about it and be like hey guys guess how that's made it's maybe peepe and they're all like oh I touched it. 09:47.81 David Howe Yeah. 09:49.73 alifeinruins Yeah, as I feel like yeah as is tradition with ah with grad school and all that stuff. Um, but that's cool to be exposed to that because I think what I think of in terms of historic archeology is kind of these random. 09:58.36 Josh But um, the the thing I would say is you know there's a lot of what what Dr Mcnutt might well another one of my mentors call sexy archeology. Um, ah. 10:05.44 alifeinruins Can scatters maybe later stuff but there there are pieces of information and really cool things. You can kind of study and things you can trace back to certain Manufacturers or you know or talk about creation with getting peed on and spit on you know, that's. 10:14.42 Josh Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot to a lot to unpack there. So but yeah you, you know it's stuff like lead balls lead shot. Um I didn't find any but muskets pistols stuff like that. 10:23.60 alifeinruins That stuff is super interesting. 10:24.93 David Howe Yeah, um I was like fascinated when I took a historic archeology class that like you can tell the period of time based on like how they laid the bricks I was like Wow This is really something I'm meeting tested on right now but like cool and and it's kind of fascinating how they could. 10:30.89 Josh Yes, they're they're all eventually gonna hear this so I Dr Mcnut is ah is a conflict archeologist which is some of the most awesome historic archeology ever? Um, yeah yeah. 10:44.74 David Howe But you have documents you can do all that. 10:48.99 Josh He did he I know he did his doctor at it at glasgow university or is it university in the uk I don't know. But yeah, yeah, between between him Dr. Wood and Dr Drs Altman and Compton I had a pretty sweet team of mentors at George Southern I'm 10:54.22 David Howe Yeah, can you elaborate on on what that's like actually because I besides archives I have from the vcp I have no like experience with like historic documents doing archeology. 11:07.27 Josh I Mean don't get me wrong I was beaten down and and broken but I would be the archaeologist I am without him so type 2 fun. Yeah. Yeah. 11:38.88 David Howe Yeah. 11:44.84 alifeinruins Same. 11:46.70 David Howe Rightfully so. 11:51.00 Josh Ah, yeah. 12:01.96 Josh Yeah. 12:04.12 David Howe Yeah. 12:08.35 alifeinruins That's I mean that's super cool I don't we don't get like least out here in the west like we do a lot with plat maps in terms of like mining and Glos and stuff like that. But that documentary evidence those letters and stuff is that like really interesting to read and kind of. 12:15.18 Josh Yeah, documentary evidence definitely is a great part of historical archeology. It makes things a lot easier. 12:25.65 alifeinruins See what people are talking about in their day-to-day lives. 12:34.65 Josh So there. There are things called you know plat maps that are basically like I may think hey there's a site here. There's no structures I don't nobody knows about it or whatever and I go check in the county's ah gosh what did like think like the tax office or something. And here's a plat map showing a building that was built in 17 to well not in Georgia 1757 and now I can go look and be like I have this Platin Map oh it shows a giant oak look There's a giant oak now I have a much better concept of where I'm probably gonna start working the Georgia um god what is it. 12:51.98 David Howe Ah I remember Georgia was it a penal colony I hear that a lot but I never remember if that was okay. 13:02.57 David Howe Do it. 13:10.12 Josh I've I've purged a lot of thesis stuff out of my head. there's ah there's um a whole book like 26 volumes of letters from the trustees of of the georgia colony you know back to England to to random officials and stuff that trace orders for. 13:14.18 David Howe Progressive. 13:27.81 Josh Millstones and supplies and hey we're going to build a town here and and that kind of stuff so it's very helpful. 13:30.37 David Howe Yeah. 13:44.52 David Howe Oh. 13:47.40 Josh Yeah, like really interesting. 13:49.20 David Howe Oh. 13:51.97 alifeinruins What was was Florida in spanish hands at that point is that why was kind of kind of on the edge of that. Okay, um. 13:53.44 Josh It is very interesting and I just remember that is the colonial records of Georgia and it's available online to read for anybody who's interested in it Georgia had a a short and tumultuous life as a colony before you know freedom with all caps. 14:01.60 David Howe Yeah St Augustine's like right south of Georgia pretty much. Um, yeah, but. 14:12.50 Josh Um, so it's it's pretty. It's pretty cool to read what was happening in that short period. 14:14.66 David Howe To go to st austine my parents just visited it. My dad was telling me like well one he said it was very disappointing like the archeology there because it was just all for kids. Um, but if anyone works at St Augustine it's listening to this podcast I'm sorry I guess but um. 14:22.74 Josh No so that that's an urban myth I'm gonna try to stay out of the weeds because I could talk about this for hours. Ogle Thorpe wanted a colony that was different from the Carolina Plantation style economy where all the wealth was concentrated in plantation owners he wanted a colony that. 14:31.40 David Howe He also was telling me like because when the spanish got here. It was like like they had just kicked the muslims out of Spain. So like it was like medieval architecture and he was saying that St Augustine is technically like the oldest medieval architecture in the Americas because it is the only medieval architecture. 14:41.63 Josh Yeah, progressive colony. Um slavery was outlawed in Georgia initially slavery was not legal in Georgia until 1751 that's when Georgia went from a trustee colony to a royal colony and they were like hey man South Carolina and North Carolina are just making tons of money we gotta do something else bro. So. 14:50.75 David Howe Like that those kinds of forts and I was like that is interesting and think about that. Yeah. 15:00.15 Josh It was initially ogle and Oglethorpe actually caused it himself by defeating spanish the battle of bloody marsh because it ended up taking away the threat that if they brought in slaves they would defect to the spanish for freedom and fight against Georgia so oglethorpe accidentally screwed himself. He played himself. 15:05.68 David Howe Yeah, so sorry, um, hang on was my next question with that. Um, which ogle thorpe the colony and then okay so. After the war what kind of went on like in Georgia like the revolutionary war this plantation economy. 15:18.81 Josh But. Spanish Yeah on the edge of that. Yeah. 15:29.28 David Howe Okay. 15:32.15 Josh Yep, it's only a couple hours from where I grew up. It was a a typical poor people vacation spot when I was a poor kid so I've been at St Augustine a few times. Yeah, yeah. 15:35.69 David Howe You find. 15:48.30 David Howe Ah. 15:51.76 Josh Um, yeah. 15:56.47 David Howe Gotcha okay okay, cool Georgia is pretty like forested for sure like I was I was surprised by that when I got there. 16:07.30 Josh E. 16:10.30 alifeinruins I Oh me too when you when I like visited you out there I was like what I thought it was just like you know peach yeah plantations and like no no sort of like um to topography or anything but where you were yeah. 16:12.30 David Howe Yeah farms. Yeah. 16:18.55 Josh Yeah, it it was like mid sixteenth century when St Augustine was founded so it's pretty old that's and that's another thing people don't think about about historical archeology is how old some of the stuff truly is in in the Us. 16:23.17 David Howe It was like a ah Pine Jungle like yeah yeah, ah. 16:27.75 alifeinruins Yeah, like a gust is wild and you're right near South Carolina and all that stuff. So it's cool I mean it's a really cool and landscape would recommend I wouldn't recommend living there but you know visiting, especially. 16:32.38 David Howe Yeah. 16:39.31 David Howe No. 16:48.62 Josh Um, it gravitated that way. 1 of the big things in the south was timber. Ah there are many records in the colonial record sorry I didn't mean to say the same word twice. There were many examples of. 16:58.66 David Howe The beaches are pretty too. Yeah, yeah I I agree with that it was hot. 17:06.34 alifeinruins Well didn't like almost like every film filmed in Georgia or there's like a large majority of films. 17:06.92 Josh Tall straight huge timber in the colonial records of George Andt was sent back to Britain initially as you know ship stuff. Um I caught my expertise and I'm using finger quotes at expertise kind of ends at the revolution. So. 17:23.47 Josh We just went wild I think there was a lot of whiskey. 17:34.20 David Howe Okay, yeah, cool because I know most of the Marvel Green screen stuff is done in Georgia which are Atlanta thought that was neat. Um, yeah, well anyway, um, we definitely want to ask you about your? ah. 17:34.68 Josh Um, yeah. 17:36.72 alifeinruins Ah. 17:48.94 David Howe Your thesis and your master's work and then how you got to the Vcp. So let's wrap this up and we'll come back in the next segment. 17:51.13 Josh Oh yeah, the pine barons. Yeah. 18:05.55 Josh Right? living there. But yeah, no, we got. We got a lot of stuff like you know we got the coast. We got the coastal plane. We got the piedmat area where there's mount me and ah well Nate forced me to climb a mountain in North Georgia a couple weekends ago was pretty miserable. Ah, so there you know there's the appalation trail starts here. It's a very we got a we got a little bit of everything in Georgia. Um, but yeah, but everywhere everywhere. It's hot. So yeah. 18:41.50 Josh There's a yeah, there's a huge film industry in Georgia and Atlanta um, you know fors gu was filmed in Savannah or parts of it was filmed in Savannah ah my friend that I worked with in the bars back in the day James be turp and he was he works in a I don't know what do you call it. Atlanta Wood but anyway he he does films. So. A. 19:20.66 Josh Okay.