00:00.00 David Howe Oh hang on welcome back to episode one fifty seven large news podcast welcome back to episode 157 of a life neurons podcast I'm here with Carlton and Connor we're reminiscing about Carlton's or Carlton's renacing not even reminiscing he's telling us the active play by play of what's going on at his school but in the interim we were talking about. Um Carlton's like fascination with where he's at now and that he might possibly want to just become a c person ah but whichre about the taino can you can you tell us about the taino I've I've met a taino. 00:32.64 C_Geezy Yeah, so yeah, what's really attracted me to this project is as I mentioned the first segment like just the general lack of archaeology that's being conducted here and the second is really how. The caribbean is really the American Mediterranean and that there's a lot of interaction going on between like the american southeast. 00:55.49 David Howe I Like that. Like I like that phrase that's cool way to put it. 01:03.20 C_Geezy Yeah there's there's a lot of interaction between the american southeast central America particularly the maya and then also like Northern South america they are all contributing into this melting pot of culture and trade in the caribbean sending from like the Bahamas the keys. Down to the lesser anti ates and the greater antilles and the greater antilles being um you know Cuba dominican haiti and and and so forth and Puerto rico and so there's like this really interesting influx of of cultures and traditions. But the taino were so poorly understood and this is this catchall term for indigenous. People to the caribbean that were all but annihilated by the spanish and so um I got to do a cave dive a couple days or to go where we went to one of these freshwater and basically a cinnote and um, the the sinotte itself. Used to be a dry cave and we know that through the presence of stalagmits and stalactites which only form in a dry cave environment in which water is trickling down leaving the um calcium carbonate behind and creating those you know jaws of a cave. And it's completely flooded, but what's in there. There's fucking hearths in there. There's tinyo pottering there. There's fucking dead sloths in there. Um, and she' able to go around this like really frozen period of time that was just incredible. There's like cave art and rock art. 02:20.42 David Howe Uncle fungi. 02:31.50 C_Geezy That is present both and um through ochre red paint as well as pictographs and pictograms and you know the taino. There's a lot of early documentation of the taino with with the spanish and so but. The majority of taino culture history is just through ceramics and so that's just kind of in the focus or these really you know old school typologies and that's how people have thought about replacement and in in the caribbean. And I've been reading up on the literature and that's changing where it's like no pots aren't fucking people. But it's like this is another one of those geographic localities that suffers from of a huge lack of archeologists and also one of the larger islands which had taino you know is fucking blockaded still embargoed and they don't like to talk to the americans very much. So there's this like general lack of data transference and so that's what's kind of got me is not only like looking at the taino history really the first people interact with western europeans but then also there is this? um. Cultural reawakening and taino across the caribbean where more people are like reconnecting and with their taino identity and that their actual taino remnant populations like in the mountains. So like the tallest Mountain East of the Mississippi is actually here in the dominican republic and so like there are these massive. 03:54.17 David Howe High school. 03:58.18 C_Geezy Mountain ranges here in the country that have preserved taino people in like ways of life that are they're still rather hesitant but as like indigenous archeologists I'm fascinated. No east of the Mississippi. 04:05.67 David Howe In North America oh sorry hang on like even in South america they oh East as I say I say okay, okay. 04:15.19 C_Geezy Yeah, so like the mountain ranges here are part of the Appalachians the Appalachian formation if that makes sense. Yeah. 04:23.22 alifeinruins Um, yeah, so as you're as you're diving into this stuff. Are you finding that? um that this catch all term or I guess at the time of contact where all these groups kind of homogenous and all these different islands or is the the Tainos just a catchall term describe. 04:23.36 David Howe Yeah. 04:40.68 alifeinruins Indigenous Caribbean cultures without recognizing kind of the individuality of the each separate kind of location. 04:46.88 C_Geezy Yeah, so it's definitely the latter even here on hispaniola we know that there's at least 4 major groups but we really don't know the boundaries between these groups or what the difference says a lot of it's once again based on the pottery. But there's just you know, just don't know like that the spanish systematically wiped out these people especially here in the in the Dr. R in Haiti um, like they wanted them gone. Um because they were playing ball. Um, but like. 05:05.63 David Howe Yeah, there's a video. Oh you know you go you go you go. 05:17.60 C_Geezy Puerto Rico there's more known about Puerto rican taino than kind of the rest of them but like a lot of people here and in the Dr in Haiti right? They're mostly they look at their cultural roots primarily and in Haiti. It's going to be more african the enslaved. Ancestry and then tr. They really kind of push that spanish background so there is like a really stark difference between the haitian and dominican populations and a lot of that deals with the colonial roots and the countries being set up. You know, like um, ah. The independent say the dominican republic isn't the data got independence from Spain but when they got independence from Haiti. Yeah. 05:56.30 David Howe Um, that is pretty yeah, there's a a fascinating video couple months ago it's by ancient America's on Youtube great channel he does really good research I think he's an archeologist. Um. 05:58.94 alifeinruins That's wild or you're gonna ask. You're gonna add something David. 06:14.18 David Howe But it's a peopleing of the caribbean and because there's so little evidence of like Potter like anything remaining and the genetics are just literally a melting pot of all the entire world like even indian people that live there like subcontinental inian people like. It's hard to tell where the migrations came from so they're like did they come from Florida to Cuba and then down but some of the genetics point to maybe from Brazil and Colombia up to Puerto rico and then maybe back down and it's like all over the place but like Glen Carlton saying everybody that lives in the greater or the lesser antilles or even parasau. Has like like spanish Dna but they have everything else so that they don't know and like I know a lot of Puerto ri New York that say like I'm taino but I'm like you're you know I can't tell them like you look. You're a pay into me. But yeah, you like. 06:53.79 C_Geezy Um, yeah, the the. 07:03.55 C_Geezy Yeah, so the main narrative is that people came up the lesser until he through South America first and then there's like a western wave coming in from the maya and there's like a lot of iconographic and ceremonial similarity between the spanish contact taino. And the maya like they the sonotes and like a lot of those things are pretty prevalent then there's not much evidence for interaction or peopleling from South America or from the Southern United States like Florida I just don't buy that and people say well you know people only lived in the caribbean for the past five thousand years I'm like that's bullshit. Like people got to possibly mount to verde. But we know people had watercraft to get to the fucking western coasts. You're telling me they just like burnt their boats on land and forgot how to build boats to get to especially at Dan end of the pleistocene where the water levels were lowered like you can fucking damn or see cuba from. Ah, Yucatan so I don't I don't buy that like it's ah it's an incredible possibly? Yes, um, but I think people have been here much longer just the environment here so tropical and acidic. 08:00.77 David Howe Do you think they got to Vera Cruz and burnt their boats there. 08:13.67 C_Geezy And there's also not much of a stone tool industry but I'm not sure if it's because people aren't looking for it because there are like these the cores of these islands are are Metamorphic by nature. They're volcanic so there are those good stone tool materials present in the interiors now the you know the outlineing parts of these islands are these. 08:26.48 alifeinruins Ah. 08:33.16 C_Geezy Limestone Um, ah, pleistocene corals. Um, but. 08:39.71 David Howe Oh. 08:40.40 alifeinruins Yeah, it just seems like I mean if you can see the Bahamas from Florida I feel like you could island hop and see islands the whole way down to anywhere in the antilles like it. It doesn't seem like it's a stretch to say that people have been there for a long time like you said I mean if there're. 08:49.91 C_Geezy Exactly and. 08:58.10 alifeinruins They don't understand like kind of the indigenous culture. How are they going to understand let alone the the prehistoric 10000 year old kind of stuff on air. 09:06.12 David Howe Yeah, um, new south the company used to work for in Georgia got like super lucky and got a contract to dig a ball court in Puerto Rico um, and it like that blew my mind I was talking to my boss about it too who like went down there and like. 09:23.23 David Howe There's just so much mayan and like Yucatan influence in there like not that the mayans were colonizing that area but like that ball courtt culture and like that kind of just like it spread across the caribbean apparently this ball courtt's all over the caribbean which is. 09:36.85 C_Geezy Yeah, no, there's but there's 3 ball courtds within five mile radius of this over I'm at right now. Um. 09:45.10 C_Geezy So I mean yeah, that's all over. 09:49.63 David Howe You you cut out. You said there's 3 ball courts and then what. 09:53.26 C_Geezy Oh sorry so there are three ball courts within a five mile radius of where I am right now like they're all over the dominican in Haiti doing the same kind of hitball game that the mayans were doing at at the time of european contact. So there's definitely I think there's heavy influence coming in from central America. 09:58.50 David Howe Okay. 10:12.66 C_Geezy Here in the great ranlles. Um I just don't know about the lesser antilles or what's going on in the Bahamas and those outlying islands to the northeast that are closeed to Florida but it's it is literally the american mediterranean here. So it is the you know the fucking Mississippi River Delta ends up just north and you have a major. 10:23.35 David Howe M. 10:31.21 C_Geezy Ah, river delta in Venezuela entering out and then you have the Yucatan like people are getting here and there's trade goods coming in all the way from fucking Montana in the great lakes as well as from the fucking andes. So definitely more. 10:44.76 alifeinruins Yeah, it only makes it only makes sense that they were all like they were they were boat folks and and moving around and interacting I mean I think that that only makes sense and and influencing each other and interacting as different cultures and and whatnot. But I mean that I think that would be really cool to kind of trace that interaction and see how it goes but it seems like if they don't have an archeologist on the Island. Um, or you know or anywhere else in there. It's it's hard to make those connections and really study it. 11:14.63 David Howe Yeah. 11:15.17 C_Geezy Well, that and then they also have the treasure hunters which are actually a huge problem here. So like they like the day before we were supposed to leave here the treasure hunter sent a letter to indian university claiming that what we were doing was in violation of a bunch of shit that we were acting without university approval. But then rather having the treasure hunter prove his bullshit. We had to prove he was lying which was because he had no proof and like we're you know we're taking these sites away from them to create protective parks and they're not happy about it and like the the ministry of culture wants to work with archaeologists to protect their. Resources because what they see with with iu we're taking a bunch of materials with this back to Indiana conserving them getting them ready and then bringing back to the drr so they're still getting rather than this fifty fifty split they're used to. They're getting the 100% now granted some then end up walking out later down the road. But. You know the treasure hunters aren't getting a cut so it's like a really weird environment to do this kind of work because it's not just like the random artist like pot or um, arrowhead hunters like it is like these very. Large and financially backed institutions that were fundamentally getting you know you know cutting their bottom line away from them. 12:31.98 David Howe Um, so they made a deal with the the treasure hunters like traders. 12:38.84 C_Geezy Um, what he means. 12:40.25 alifeinruins Yeah, yeah, they he said earlier that they like they do like a fifty fifty split where you know they'll make these contracts with these guys and and give them half the stuff and the government gets half the stuff and the money so it's like it's an embedded part of this. Yeah right. 12:41.00 David Howe Out the mirror. 12:52.40 David Howe Sounds like concha club. That's pretty cool. 12:56.85 C_Geezy Um, yeah, yeah, it's it's not great. So it's been interesting to navigate this environment because I'm like what the fuck and I hear these stories of like at conferences treasure hunters like approaching our members of my team or other archaeology teams from the Carolinas. 13:00.23 alifeinruins Well, that's. 13:14.44 C_Geezy Like trying to start fist fights over it because they're like you were you know we're taking away their profession because like and but they're they're just after the shit they're just after the artifacts whereas we're also not only just preserving these artifacts but also protecting Marine ecosystems. 13:24.38 David Howe Yeah, and. 13:31.36 David Howe It's pretty cool too because like oh sorry you go Conner. 13:32.90 alifeinruins I Just going to say it wouldn't surprise me if those are connected into larger black markets too. So like you really could be starting to mess with like mobs gangs. Yeah as you get like really deeper into this stuff like if you start cutting the bottom line you know it seems a little dangerous. 13:42.88 David Howe Um, kind of love. 13:51.86 C_Geezy And there's ah, there's a lot of the same families here in the caribbean that are in some of the larger East Coast crime syndicates no a lot of italians are here. 14:00.82 David Howe Um, and I saw a thing but I mean they were the first to sail there I guess um I saw like when the spanish where especially when they were pulling stuff out of Sarah Depazzi and in Argentina like. 1 ship that went back to Spain like occasionally had enough money to pay for the entire coffers of the like kingdom of england for an entire year which is why the Queen was like Francis Dre go get that money like go sink those ships so all of that money like Spain was just extorting the fuck out of the new world. And taking all that gold back and silver so like in our country we don't really have a lot of that. So like it's just like clovis points are on the black market I'm hopefully not human bones I'm sure they are but like in the caribbean it's like pretty clear just from like knowing only superficially about it when you're treasure hunting. It's like. Pounds of like silver and doloons and things like that which I'm sure has all been picked clean from the immediate ones you can see but Carlton don't know you know that all about that from school. 15:09.60 C_Geezy Um, yeah I mean like I should you guys that picture of the fucking brick of concreted spanish silver and there's a lot of it that and that's that's the kind of thing that people are looking for these shipwrecks and so like the one that we're working on next week so the students go home tomorrow and then the staff are staying. 15:10.50 David Howe Yet. 15:26.81 C_Geezy So to be much more team. We're gonna do like actually much more active excavations at this mid fifth sixteenth Century Shipwreck um and that's where we found oh I haven't right here? um, know. Get my room went for but you know we were pulled out fucking 50 horseshoes the other day. 15:46.79 David Howe Um, I thought you were just going to pull out an artifact Carlton not only bent over to pull up an artifact but it was dripping wet. What was that. 15:54.90 C_Geezy Yeah, no I have ah I have a I have ah have a gatorate cooler in here full of Salt water that I have a a shitload of horseshoes in um so like and of this. 15:55.19 alifeinruins Is a horseshoe with the fuck. 16:07.70 alifeinruins Ah, the Horse massacre. 16:09.71 C_Geezy This also ties into like the horsestainment society shit I'm also down here looking for you know the earliest horses that got to the Americas and it's it's hard. Um, but we don't know the name of the ship. The treasure hunters got to it. Um, they don't know the name of it but we know it's a mid fifteenth century ship based on some typologies. So um. 16:10.28 David Howe Um. 16:29.33 C_Geezy It had cast iron bombard cannons so they weren't are not cast iron sorry rod iron so those are early caravels. Um, they didn't know how to cast iron they're firing fucking granite cannonballs. The whole thing is Notts. 16:39.37 David Howe Wait Mid fifteenth century being like fourteen hundreds okay I like that. 16:44.61 C_Geezy Sorry mid sixteenth century mid fifteenth on Fifteen hundred s so it's an early ship not quite um, the gallons yet. But we don't know the name of the ship so we don't know there's a couple like a lot of ships went down here like a lot. So um. 17:03.42 C_Geezy It's it's not just like reading a book trying to figure out like okay, what ship is this but we just know generally this ship is from the mid 1500 s we don't know which one but we do know like they they wrecked by hitting a coral reef um, and you can see that they try to drop both of their anchors and then they. Also try to drop their holy shit. Third anchor to really stop them and and they didn't and they hit the reef and you know a fucking ship carried 17 anchors at any given time like there was a rule in the spanish government like you had to have 17 anchors under ship. Um. 17:21.16 alifeinruins A shed. 17:30.20 David Howe Her breaks. 17:34.15 C_Geezy A lot of them were kept in the and the bottom as ballast. But then yeah, you also just needed extra strengthers in case shit happen. Um, so we know the treasure hunters they left their fucking stakes there but we don't think they hit the entire site So next week What we're doing. 17:35.72 David Howe Oh okay. 17:51.74 C_Geezy But tomorrow and in the next couple days is we're going to go start excavating like actual excavations outside of where we know based on how these ships are Oriented. We know where the anchors are we know where the balanced stones and the anchors are but there's a ah. Aft half of the ship that hasn't been found so that's what we're going to try to figure out and that might have the bell on it which will have the name of the ship and maybe some of the more like actual we we can tell what the what this thing was fucking caring. But they're carrying a lot of fucking Horse Shoes I'll tell you that that's something that we find so did they have horses. We don't know. 18:22.28 David Howe Horse massacre. 18:26.16 C_Geezy But um. 18:28.42 alifeinruins That's wild. Um I'm gonna drop all 17 anchors on this segment and ah us right here so we will be right back. 18:33.72 David Howe We got.