00:00.00 David Howe Welcome back to episode one fifty six for life neuros podcast we were your host Conor John and David Howe we are going to not only talk about prehistoric archeology again but get further into the the waeds of it I'm just getting this is interesting for anybody. But what I worked for I'll sname some environmental firms out. Out east or out west and out eastt I'll just say a theum for a bit ah or for a bit in different places. One company I worked for had such a specific like how reduced was the buy face what kind of Biface. What was the what was the the formation. What was the like. Can you identify as it chalcedi as it Cher is ob cityi and is it flint and like then on top of that was like what were it stage reduction is it how heavily retouched like and then also for flakes. It was like how many flakes how many are tertiary how many secondary how much retouch why? Why do you need all that information for like. Like flake etc anything I get better to have it that don't have it especially for dropping the flake back off in the the dirt and not bringing it with you but like just say it was late stage reduction. That's like it. There's not it. It doesn't look like somebody was sitting here flinnapping it looks like somebody like knocked off a few flakes to sharpen it That's what I'll say. And that. 01:16.22 alifeinruins Yeah, and and and what I've like what I've learned from other people in this and the industry and even like in academia is that no one really codes the things the same no one really? well you could and I ah we had a. 01:24.12 David Howe Oh. 01:31.53 alifeinruins The at here at the university of oh Wyoming Casey Dukeman who you know this study where he sent the same debotage same whole lithic collection to a bunch of different analysts and found out that they had vastly different interpretations based on their methods based on their understanding and these are expert. 01:45.00 David Howe I didn't know that was his thing that's cool. 01:49.34 alifeinruins Yeah, Casey Dukeman check it out. Um, we'll probably link it if we can in the the show notes but they had vastly different understandings of this and these are supposed to be people who are experts in the field and should generally agree if our scientific method is correct if we're doing things in a way that is replicable and and good. So it is this kind of thing and I think crm companies are forced to make these deductions on the fly and like they have to come up with like a final guess on what is happening at the site they can't just leave it like. 02:17.45 David Howe O. 02:26.86 alifeinruins I Don't know what's going on here. There's some flakes. There's some cores you know I don't know if it's specifically late stage reduction early reduction I can't really say unless we do like a larger sample. Ah there but they are forced to like kind of make these evaluations because we have to you know, evaluate it for The. National Register of historic places so you have to be like the final have to have the final say right? then right there of how and what is going on is this site and it's kind of and I know a bunch of other Crn people would agree with me that like it's kind of damaging to. Ah, how we understand the past and it's not really accurate or a good way to um, analyze stuff in the field I don't know I think you probably had the same experience working for those environmental companies right. 03:12.44 David Howe Yeah she's like I was flabbergasted when I went out there like being a fucking why not to say like I'm a wyoming archaeologist but like I was trained there in a percesual nature where you do quantify things like a lot and qualify things like that a lot. And like I was shocked at like how much they want you to quantify and like qualify those little things like it's like damn like that's just not an either and like you said it. It's 2 into the weeds and everybody codes it differently so like what somebody calls tertiary is not going to be tertiaries. It's gonna be secondary to somebody else and like. Honestly, just becomes like a circle jerk of like what you believe and like what people think should be the right way and it's just dumb to me like albeit in Wyoming in Colorado and Utah and like anywhere out west where there's a lot more surface finds like that sure it is a little better to be pretty thorough because that's most of the archeology out there. 04:07.11 alifeinruins Yeah, and you can sample sample more and you have you're not just getting like a couple flakes from a shovel test out East or something like that. 04:09.21 David Howe But like. 04:13.80 David Howe Yeah, and out east too when you're doing like so historic archeology. It's like it's like I've seen it too. It's like what kind of brick. It's red brick. But what kind of brick is it wattle daub is it like Clay firered brick is it hardfired brick what era what year like I don't know that shit, especially if I'm like. If you if you went to school for historic archeology and you got a job being historical doing historical archeology crm you're going to know that stuff a lot more. You're going to know a lot more about so like Eastern Ceramics and like calling aware in spanish ceramics and English Ceramics but like I don't coming from out there but I'm also put into that same job sometimes and like. 04:49.70 alifeinruins Yeah, you're. 04:51.18 David Howe I can tell you it's historic ceramic. It's like it's China or it's porcelain like that's I can tell you that but um. 05:00.16 alifeinruins Yeah, you're forced to as like a tech to to kind of be ah ah a master of all or a good. What is it master of none decent at all or whatever I don't you know it's just and I think it comes to the role of. 05:09.47 David Howe Yeah. 05:14.65 alifeinruins You're you're forced to play as a Sierra archaeologist a project director a pi is you you have to make management decisions on the fly as you're going. You're like we have to protect this site. We have to you know this is going to be impacted here so I have to argue this and it has to be protected. Have to have very specific arguments about why this happens I to put 2 shovel tests in I have to figure out that there's deposits, etc. You're kind of doing this within maybe like twenty thirty minutes of what you're given at a site and then you're you're forced to like oh this is exactly what's going on here I I understand it perfectly when we really don't. 05:44.90 David Howe Ah. 05:51.38 alifeinruins We're just sampling and we have like a little understanding. What's going on there like if we really want to get into it and understand what's going on at site we have to do data recovery or more intensive auguring. Um, but we're we're not given those luxuries as Crn Professionals you're kind of forced by clients forced by. 05:55.18 David Howe Um, yeah. 06:09.37 alifeinruins Your own company at time to get things done and to make these quick decisions which I think is you know I think people are good at it and I think all C a lot of C Um R M Archaeologists are really trying hard to protect resources and do good science but they're really only given like these small opportunities and forced. 06:19.25 David Howe Oh. 06:29.80 alifeinruins To do these these non not super scientific, kind of analyses on the fly. 06:32.52 David Howe Right? And in that regard too likere to say like oh this is a p place to see alluvial drainage with subbaul blockage sediment. That's a teno r four on the moncell scale that also is let's say riddled with tertiary flakes. Of a calcedney reddish nature that are also intermixed with Silver Coins from a spanish fort that was nearby in the late 1560 s and I'm just naming things off here that are like made with. But's say el castillo style brick brick molding which comes from cordova and like just shit like that you have to say that kind of stuff because when you write the report trying to tell Walmart not to but bulldoze this land down you want to make it sound good as to why you want to keep it I get it but also. It's a fucking brill wall built by colonists who wouldn't know anything more about that. No like that's like do we keep it or not I'm assuming you're gonna keep it because it's made by fucking white people but well like not you know, out't know how it works at east most of the time. But. 07:40.90 alifeinruins Yeah, 1 prehistoric stuff like there's there's you have to make and it's really interesting because you can make arguments for eligibility and protection kind of in 4 different things. They have the 4 different. Um, what are they called I don't remember that. And Abc and d yeah, yeah, so you can argue I don't know having this ah top my head it's associated with like an important person. Um, it's ah so I think a is a. 07:56.36 David Howe Ah, yeah, they're eligibility requirements. Yeah. 08:06.23 David Howe It's actually taped to the inside of my feel bag. So I can say it the people I can't remember how top my head. But again it's interpretation to people do. But anyway keep going. Yeah. 08:13.64 alifeinruins Person. Yeah a is person place thing. It's important in and in history. Ah, bees isn't it the works of a craftsman or like a very unique style. Yeah. 08:28.30 David Howe Um, style rings a bell yes or like technique. Yeah. 08:32.66 alifeinruins It's like a good representative of this of the style. Um and C is a I think C is associated with historic events I mean they might not be in this order but it's important people important events and important like stylistic and stuff and then there's. 08:48.66 David Howe Ah, like a good representation of that culture. Yeah. 08:51.32 alifeinruins Yeah, exactly and then D is what what most prehistoric stuff is is potential for research or potential to give information about the past and you're not going to very often argue prehistoric sites for a B or C but they just never. 08:58.67 David Howe Um. 09:06.53 David Howe O. 09:10.38 alifeinruins But never happen and they always have to fall under D So it's It's really interest. Yeah, very subjective and I think it's you could argue very easily that it's bias towards historic stuff and giving them more options to to do that? um. 09:11.49 David Howe Right? Very subjective. 09:26.48 David Howe For sure and like that that was a pretty apparent thing with the with Trump's wall which apparently most of it's been built under the current administration which is funny to me, but just all stupid the um it was rerouted. Like the the working of it a lot like the route around historic european cemeteries but it was blasted through native land like native potential archaeological sites but is it a result of the institutions being colonists and racists saying fuck it. It's just a native american site go through it or is it. Kind of just like to people who know nothing about archeology that looks like a pile of dirt with some rocks in it that looks like a building like we need to go around it and like it's hard to for me and you we're sitting here screaming when we see that shit happening because it's like there is potential for research there like especially right there at the border. 10:15.84 alifeinruins Absolutely. 10:19.59 David Howe But like you're ah along the River but I don't know what to tell people sometimes yeah. 10:26.57 alifeinruins It's hard to make that argument when you can't see it as much like you're saying on the landscape like you can European stuff like it's just it's always going to be fundamentally difficult to unless you find this beautiful horizon or if you run into human remains. Like you, you really have you're fighting an uphill battle to protect anything that is pre-contact. Whatever the term is these days I'm I'm probably using the wrong term but whatever ah pre-contact Prehistoric indigenous you know, whatever it is. It's It's really hard to argue. 10:41.29 David Howe Um. 10:57.94 alifeinruins And and you have land managers. Um, but different agencies who will fight against you when you try to call stuff eligible and deserving of protection so you see you as a Cr archaeologist or like put placed in between a bilan or ah like a a federal archeologist and a proponent who wants to build stuff there. 11:03.66 David Howe M. 11:16.10 alifeinruins And you have to try to argue to both of them that you should protect this site so you're fighting in between them and then your proponent wants you to get stuff done and at a certain timeframe and the Blm um person also kind of wants to push it through or the Us forest service whoever it is wants to push it through so you're stuck in this like middle ground where you're. 11:27.94 David Howe Um, yeah, a. 11:36.30 alifeinruins You're trying to protect resources but you're also being pressured by both federal archaeologists and your proponent to get stuff done. 11:45.32 David Howe Yeah, and when I was monitoring this summer this fall I should say in Colorado ah, the bulldozer crew that I was with like you're not so you're not supposed to stand with them all day and talk to them. But you're doing nothing for 8 hours so you end up talking. And like I pretended to be this like conservative Christian Trump guy for three weeks talking to this guy and it was really fun like I had my whole life made up and like he him and I were best friends his opinions on things were wild but like I had it like ah he ended up opening up to me and he was like he sort of crying at 1 point about his like. 12:15.33 alifeinruins Ah. 12:19.49 David Howe Girlfriend that got hurt in a car accident because of his Dui and stuff and I was like this guy has never opened up to somebody's life like I feel bad but like I was there for him just I wasn't it wasn't David it was Chris but like my name was David on my tag. Well like I you know come up with different lives for these people but um because I don't want them to know who I am um anyway. His car. He can't drive because he clearly had a dui um like it was taken away and the guy who was the dozer guy was sorry my hair is like sticking all that of my head. Yeah, the bulldozer guy so the. 12:52.47 alifeinruins Here Got the alfalfa going on here. But. 12:59.35 David Howe This is your tax money here too. There's the dozer guy who runs the bulldozer and that flattens the Pad the flatlands they can build us like a power tower there like a big like you know Tower Transmission line Yeah had a giant like electric pole put that way and you're going to flatten the land. 13:11.43 alifeinruins Transmission Tower yeah. 13:18.58 David Howe I have to watch him to make sure no sights come up or no stains their features or bones. He has a guy who's out there who literally has to stand in front of the dozer and wave and tell the dozer keep coming keep coming even though the dozer can see on the computer in the front of his on the front of his whole thing where he he is. He's paid for this He's paid I think fifteen an hour not great but he's paid a lot for it. Um to to to wave. 13:42.17 alifeinruins And this is because he's constricted yeah because he's constricted to the pad like there's very strict laws of where they can disturb and that's that's part of it is that that guy has to like say hey you're at the edge of the what we've determined is the pad You had to back up and you have to or you know direct them. 13:48.90 David Howe Right. 13:59.30 David Howe Yeah, that that's his job. Yeah, and then there's a guy who goes out there with a a track ho and Samson I'm getting to the weeds of this but the point being he's out there. Do that job that the the spotters there to do his job and I'm out there to look for stuff and occasionally I have a partner or those paleontologists with me too. 14:00.83 alifeinruins As such. 14:18.17 David Howe Um, and at the end of the day we all just like anyway he couldn't drive and the guy the bulldozer guy had got him a job and said come on up to Colorado I'll get you a job this summer get your life straight and he was like cool. He is like a family friend and like he would yell at him and lay him into every day that's kind of funny. Um, but anyway they seem to have ah a history and at the end of the day like I would often I had the truck because I have to have my equipment in there to like monitor stuff and like I need to have my food to my water and stuff and so at the end of the day I would drive them back to their truck which was like maybe a half hour drive from site back to the. The entrance to the balm um property and then another hour drive back to town. Um, and like you're not supposed to necessarily do that. But there's nothing says you can't I don't think at least on this project I was just helping him because I'm not going to make him walk the whole way and at the end of the day like we want to go home. We're doing the same job. We want to make sure this pad gets built. 15:08.37 alifeinruins Yeah. 15:16.78 David Howe And we want to go on to the next one but I'm out there literally all day as an antagonist to them being like hey don't don't go there like stop I need to look and like that annoys me because I know they just want to do their job but at the same time your tax money and my tax money goes to me to do this and to make sure I'm preserving indigenous heritage and ah. 15:32.25 alifeinruins Yeah. 15:36.52 David Howe Bulldozing through something but at a certain point it becomes like you're not preserving indigenous heritage your. 15:46.27 alifeinruins You're impeding progress or you're like you know. 15:46.61 David Howe Yeah, like you're you're just in the way it's kind of like how I feel most of the time and when I feel like that I'm like no I'm doing this for indigenous people. But then also no I'm doing this because it's the law which is for indigenous people and then like. But it's also for environmental reasons so they don't get sued and things that it's a whole thing and I kind of lost track of what I'm trying to say but if I were to say hey there's stuff here. Don't dig I know how much work and you know too from the mapping and all the paperwork side of it. How much work has to happen. How much work has to halt. Millions of dollars in case I find them and I did I found a few burials there were I think oregon trail era like pioneer burials still I had to have them move around and like the whole road had to be moved and like the whole road's already mapped in. It's flagged out. It's been looked at by everybody and like um like I don't know how they missed it. But like I was like they're right here. So like I have to then like all these people like another fucking month out here because we got to move everything reroute everything. But that's the that's the law. That's my job and that's like what we're supposed to do because it's not our land to begin with um. 16:57.33 alifeinruins Yeah, well I I think um to put it in perspective like I don't think that million dollars or whatever it costs them is a drop in drop in the bucket for these huge companies. So yeah and we're and we're not. We're not really impeding progress and I've talked with other people and. 17:04.73 David Howe Now not at all. Well. 17:13.64 alifeinruins You You know we we have to make these stops. It's part of the law. Um, and you can even get in trouble like an Ei which is an environmental inspector can come dock you for not doing your job there. So they're the real bad guys that are the ones who are telling the construction people. Yeah there that so like I don't know if you get paid enough money to be an Ei um. 17:23.77 David Howe Yeah, everybody hates that? yeah. 17:32.18 alifeinruins If you are an e I am sorry because it's it seems like it's just an go Devin Pedigrew we're sorry we're so sorry but it's ah you know I think I think if we put it into perspective that we are just kind of a small drop in the bucket of this money money cow that is. 17:33.21 David Howe Um, Devyn was devyn was my ei um. 17:50.33 alifeinruins These large corporations. Ah, we don't really impede that much but it is a perilous position like you're saying to put yourself in you feel like you're in the way you feel like you're stopping construction when you're really just trying to protect what is in the past and follow the laws that are are governed for a. 18:05.14 David Howe Yeah, and sometimes I'm out there for 8 hours and it's hot and I had sometimes you can't bring the trucks or to hike all the way out to the site with steel toe boots on hiking boots I have the wear steel toe I but guess it's maybe still joehiking boots. But. 18:08.17 alifeinruins For this process. 18:20.75 David Howe Anyway, it's it's hot I'm out there and like I don't want to have to now dig a whole site while I'm out there and like a lot of it frustrates me in that sense too is it's just so fast like you have to just constantly be watching and if you miss it and if you find something. I Have to dig that out and inspect it while he's still bulldoze in the other side of the thing and there's just one of me and like it's just it's so disheartening and frustrating it pays. Well luckily but like I just I understand why no one wants to do it and why they have to pay a lot of money to monitor us because it's. 18:42.26 alifeinruins Yeah. 18:57.10 David Howe It's so seriously like a thankless job. 18:58.61 alifeinruins Yeah, and on that thankless note Wow Well in the segment will be right back.