00:00.00 David Howe Welcome back to episode one fifty five not going to do the whole thing again just going to jump into obsidian man you just submitted your pro quo your thesis to proquest so congrats that means he's officially done. He's submitted it to be published or at least like it's on record that it is published. 00:13.20 Jacob Arnzen I'm done done I'm done done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so pay for it. 00:19.38 David Howe And a piece of work that is his copyright. Um, yeah so congrats on that. Yeah yeah, you have to freaking pay for it. Um. 00:27.77 alifeinruins I ah, rich rich would tell me that he'd get like randomly get checks from proquest you get like for like twenty cents or something you like ya someone bought my thesis I don't even think we could afford bubble come on those prices inflation's the hell of a drug. 00:32.90 David Howe Really. 00:34.13 Jacob Arnzen I can get bubble gum for that now now. 00:42.51 David Howe Na not buollicious tell you that maybe big lead che but um, yeah, like I zoomed into your your thesis defense and like at the end it's kind of awkward. You're on Zoom to ask questions but I want do but I can't see whose hands are up. So anyway, what I wanted to ask though was. You're a pretty great example of like you were in grad school for a year and a half then dipped out and did a job immediately which is kind of it's not in the that's a top 1 % thing I think that happens. Um I mean not not exactly but it's good to do and it it doesn't happen often. Um, I wanted to ask how does your thesis if you have any last thoughts on that like how does that contribute to the work you do now or like you know how can you apply that to what you're doing because essentially that's why you went to grad school right. 01:28.60 Jacob Arnzen Right? Yeah was to get my master so I can move up into my career I mean like I think my thesis is um, pretty important to to you know, kind of work I'm doing because when we the kind of work I do is. Ah, basis on like crm. So it's cultural resource management but it's done at the federal level I worked for the forest service before before going to India and my masters for for since 2015 and I started my masters in 2021 so I worked there for close to 7 years and so it was a. You know one of the things that we definitely looked at when I was there. Ah you know we had a lot of cityian sites and um, what really got me thinking was like well how like there's so many sites here. What can we do with this like what kind of research can we do with this and um, and since when I decided I was going to get my masters I really thought about this like What can we do about this like what can we do with this data because we collected so much of it and um, you know I didn't really come up with my thesis topic until I actually got there and talked to my advisor about it and we kind of just sat down and and and looked what what kind of data I had or had available to and then we came up with this this research question and. Um, and so what a lot of the the sites that I incorporated into my into my data set or a lot of them were collected from um like the data was collected by crc or m archeologists and federal archaeologists like even but and like those from the vlm or the forest service. 03:01.16 Jacob Arnzen Or Efficient game like a lot of federal agencies do a lot of recording of sites and um and and sometimes they will also send these artifacts in to get sourced and so that data was crucial to to my thesis because if I just focused on academic. Sites. They usually focus on on particular sites and there's not and and they're usually pretty widespread and I wanted to to have a very large data set to to be able to look at this how this distribution forms across the landscape and so if it so. Really important that I incorporated a lot of COrM archeology into this and so yeah, know like now since I'm on the topic of the forest service like yeah, you know that you know it was very important job for for research, not like um, not just going out there and can you know. Just recording a site calling it. Good. You know this stuff is going to be important someday for somebody and so um, yeah. 04:08.51 alifeinruins Yeah I think that um your research like you were mentioning and the thing where we're that we're talking about all the stuff that the Crm folks the different government agencies contribute to is called the gray literature which is something that not a lot of people have access to um I am currently the gatekeeper. 04:21.00 Jacob Arnzen Are. 04:25.80 alifeinruins For um, the Wyoming version of that stuff. Um, just to make sure that doesn't get into hands that are not yet not yet I'm working on that. Yeah yeah, yeah, um, but it's it those are underutilized. 04:29.27 Jacob Arnzen Um, he does take bribes. 04:35.58 David Howe You're you're a state employee not federal so you can Yeah, what. 04:42.77 alifeinruins Data Sets I think in general and I and a lot of my professors would agree. There's a lot of good data to be had in these gray literature stuff and it's cool that your thesis showed the importance of that and that the work people are doing on the ground is is important. Yeah. 04:56.95 Jacob Arnzen Are. 05:00.95 alifeinruins Would you recommend that people get and portable Xrf if they work in these areas? yeah. 05:02.78 Jacob Arnzen Oh absolutely yeah I I had one I would be using it all the time because like like I was saying when I was working for the forest service like this this one particular force I was working for There was a lot of primarily all the prehistoric sites. Had up sitting in it and um and there's a lot of Obsidian sources in Eastern Oregon I mean there's over 100 of them so it would be it would have been really nice to have that portable x or f ah scanner out there just poop poop. Whoop and just finding out what what? all these pieces are because we can't collect it all and just send it in to get and get tested. Um, um, it's a lot of work to do so so to have that portable portable xrxrf would have been super handy. 05:38.92 David Howe Um, yeah, like. 05:51.33 David Howe To expand on that and I guess for non archeologistologist listening like it's not just about like where did this come from like the the pace of city and like what source just so you can match it in like a database. It's like you want to know if you found something like a. Some points or some flakes way out in Portland you know like where people used to live where that came from and you can see how far people were going from those or not sure obsidian resources to where they were or it's traded or primary or secondary reduction areas or if it was just you know, sharpinging it up with some pressure flaking. 06:21.52 Jacob Arnzen Mr. 06:29.44 David Howe And things. Um, yeah I mean I imagine that's like part of a big part of your thesis too. But um. 06:34.36 alifeinruins Yeah, and it's like and it's like like I mentioned earlier it's something we don't We rarely get information on and we know that people are like trading goods and moving stuff but like we don't have like something as good as Obsidian Obviously other stuff is being trading as part traded as part of this is probably um. 06:38.36 David Howe Yeah. 06:52.12 alifeinruins Obviously humans I'm just kidding. You're finding other brides britons and stuff like that. So it's it's important what are portable xrfs these days. What are they just like a couple thousand dollars 07:05.41 Jacob Arnzen Yeah, there are a couple thousand I think there's definitely more than a couple of thousand. Ah, but I mean it's definitely something. We can't afford on ah on a butt on our budget. But yeah, you know it's hopefully in the future like this stuff. 07:08.16 David Howe And they look like sewing machines like I can't really describe it. 07:20.23 Jacob Arnzen This technology would become more available and I mean like I mean look at tablets you know, but ten years ago where all of us were still using ten or twenty years ago we're still using. Ah ah the trembles a lot of a lot of people I know crm archeologists I know or we we convert you know, moved over to using. 07:32.12 David Howe Are. 07:39.99 Jacob Arnzen Tablets or just even our phones of because they have just as good of of ah satellite Gps receiving as receivers on it now that are just as good as the the ones that were on those tremble devices. So. You know and would be and they were cheaper and more like available. So I think I think in the future I think xf would become like you know we could you could just take a picture with your phone. It was still do like an xrf analysis on it that would that'll be super sick. no no and 08:00.75 David Howe Ah. 08:04.78 alifeinruins Oh that be sweet. 08:07.52 David Howe Yeah, as you know. 08:12.54 alifeinruins Doesn't seem that crazy. 08:15.73 Jacob Arnzen I Think there's even like some phones out there with like lighter camera on it or something like that. So. 08:21.75 David Howe Um, yeah I think so she also want to clarify. It doesn't look like ah a sewing machine. It looks like a a screwdriver or like a power drill next the one I'm thinking of was at the museum and it was like huge. But yeah, the most of them looked like a you know little power drill a dwalt. 08:27.77 Jacob Arnzen Oh like a dwalt Po power drill. Yeah yeah. 08:36.69 alifeinruins Yeah, um, they're not very portable if they're sewing machine size just carry it on your bag. 08:37.74 David Howe Um, yeah, no and not um. 08:40.90 Jacob Arnzen Yeah, they I mean they're still they're still heavy. They're not. They're not light, a piece of equipment they're they're kind of heavy I mean it's definitely something You don't want to have in your backpack all the time and try to hike around in the woods for up a mountain and. 08:49.17 David Howe Ah, yeah, um. 08:56.55 Jacob Arnzen And then just ah Zap a couple pieces of of of obsidian. 08:59.73 David Howe Um, well I Guess yeah, it's funny to think about it too like they look like the little when you're at the self checkout like the little like laser scanner like you could just have your trow on like a compass and just have that and just start zapping Obsidian barcodes in the in the field we can't. 09:08.54 Jacob Arnzen Um. 09:14.86 alifeinruins Peeppe pew. 09:16.63 David Howe Um, why would you need to do that I don't really know just to you know, have better data while you're walking out there but figure that out later. Um, yeah. 09:23.45 alifeinruins Um I have a question so we've talked about this informally on see aieves and on and the barst etc. But I think you're like a you're a big. Opponent of people going into federal offices and doing archeology and crm in general. Um, what would be your likes spiel to someone who is interested in being in the Blm or working for the forest service things like that. 09:58.13 Jacob Arnzen Oh man I got to do my recruitment speech. Ah so I think it's a great opportunity to go into the federal federal sort like a federal agency like especially at the forest services the beam mostly because you yeah mean you get to travel to different places that you probably never. A thought of to go to 2 before um, like many people who have worked at East Oregon they're like oh I'll never put thought eastern oron looks like this or like or and you know parts of Oregon looks like this and and so ah, you know like the forest service in the vlm offers a lot of opportunity for people to to experience this new and new train landscapes and and new cultures so um and it's also very steady work normally when you when you first want to start off and with the federal service like if as a federal agency to as ah like an undergrad you're going to be mostly mostly as seasonal. What we call seasonal employee that is ten thirty nine hours you get ten thirty nine hours to work for this agency and which adds up to six months of employment um you you get to work out there for the summer or in parts of the fall maybe spring. And then you get to go off and do other things during the winter time and a lot of times we will hire you back? Um, and right now we're we're definitely shorthanded on a lot of seasonals. You know there's a lot of agencies that that were offices that were shorthanded on seasonals. 11:29.46 Jacob Arnzen Mostly because like we're you know, like everybody else we're having projects and boosts in projects due to the like the infrastructure Bill. So ah, we're we're need more people and we're getting and we want to get more people and so I highly recommend a lot of people just to just to go to Usa Jobs which is the main place to find. Federal agency jobs is on that website usajob.gov make yourself a profile upload your resume um and apply a federal resume. It's a little bit different than a c regular sir m resume um, just come yeah needs to a little bit be a little bit longer. 11:57.52 David Howe Um, the federal resume. Yeah. 12:03.30 David Howe Good to be longer. Yeah. 12:08.78 Jacob Arnzen Ah, but just make sure to ah read carefully over the the application and try to incorporate some of the terminologies that they use in there because we use a little bit different terminologies like we don't when we say class one 2 or 3 It's not the type of like class one. 12:16.71 David Howe Um, yeah. 12:28.47 Jacob Arnzen But which which is like pedestrian survey or class two which is testing class three is the excavation we we use class one 2 3 in a different different term it means that have we have a different definitions for those. So um, just read carefully over those and try to incorporate into your federal resume. Um, and. 12:29.24 David Howe A. 12:48.22 Jacob Arnzen And don't be disheartened if you don't get into one one location and and also one of my biggest advices is I can ever give to anybody new ah person who wants to get into a seasonal position in in the in the federal agencies is look for places that are. Not typically well-known. Um you know like that's how I got to my job working in Eastern Oregon is I worked in a really small town. Um that I frankly, only been to a couple times when I was just a little kid so ah, but I had a great time and it was a wonderful forest and I made a lot of good friends. There. 13:27.89 Jacob Arnzen Um, and so yeah, definitely just applied for places you never heard of before don't apply for the very popular recreational areas because a lot of other people are going to be competing for that I mean you can still apply for those definitely go for it. You might get it but you want to definitely have a lot of backups. Um, and so. 13:41.33 David Howe Um, and if you take 1 of those jobs too out in the middle of nowhere. Essentially not to say where you're at this middle nowhere. But um and you're near Portland but middle of nowhere Nebraska Idaho Wyoming to some people like who who the hell knows where Warland Wyoming is but. 13:46.63 Jacob Arnzen Right? Yeah, sure. 13:55.45 alifeinruins No one. 13:57.52 David Howe You take that job and you put your time in with the feds like then later on you can you have better chances of and you're already in with it. You can apply somewhere that you you would like to work like Yellowstone I think the statue of liberty in New York is technically a national park. So like you get to do that kind of stuff. 14:12.22 alifeinruins Yeah, yeah, yeah I think it like once you really are in the federal system like things get a lot easier I think you can once you recognize and been hired but it is kind of a journey and there are like and there's some yeah yeah, and. 14:12.81 Jacob Arnzen Yeah, it is yeah it's a national monument. Yeah, ah. 14:16.10 David Howe Yeah. 14:25.99 Jacob Arnzen Yeah, it. 14:26.42 David Howe It is your pay your dues. 14:31.59 alifeinruins And like David said it's not the same sort of resume cv and like Jake mentioned you might get disheartened because there's lots of jobs that you apply for that. You might not get. But if you if you do your time. It's a it seems like a worthwhile endeavor. 14:44.35 David Howe Yeah. 14:46.30 Jacob Arnzen Yeah I mean just keep at it I mean like I said um, we're we're looking for a lot of people. So I mean some places just fill up super quickly. But some places don't and so we are then we then we try again. So if you you don't get into the plate. 14:58.76 David Howe Who. 15:02.15 Jacob Arnzen Place you want first just keep going and try again at a different place and hopefully you get it. But yeah I mean if you love hiking around in the woods or in in sage rush country I mean the forest servicer the blm or great agencies for that. 15:06.92 David Howe And you. 15:15.66 David Howe Yeah, and you get I'm assuming you you've worked with the feds but bunch so you get probably pretty solid and sharing and to get a 4 1 k with the the I almost said the army. That's what I had but with the yeah oh you had a pension him. 15:23.73 Jacob Arnzen Oh yeah, that is a really good federal pit pension. You get really good retirement pension. Yeah yeah, pension. Yeah. 15:29.93 alifeinruins The and the pay and and the pay is also probably much better than you'll get in other places. 15:39.89 Jacob Arnzen Well I mean yeah, ah for most for the most part. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah, and also like just kind of like at another little tidbit about working for the 4 service or the blm is that you're not just working with archeologists. 15:43.96 David Howe Um. 15:44.60 alifeinruins It might take some time. It might take some time to to get into the real good pay ranks. Um. 15:57.40 Jacob Arnzen I Mean it's not just archeologists working in these agencies you're working with a variety of different disciplines from wildlife biologists Fisheries hydrologists geologists, forestry specialists or civil culturalists and um. 16:14.15 David Howe Ah. 16:15.40 Jacob Arnzen And and or range and and range managers too. But and so you get to work in an agency that is not just about archeology. But as about all these other disciplines and you get to meet these people and you get to work with them and you get to make really good friendships with them as Well. It's It's a great opportunity for that. 16:32.46 David Howe Yeah, and what I always like about that too from friends that do federal work. So Everyone's tax dollars. Go to that. So like it's I mean not to say it's like a noble cause in any sense but like you like it. You're you're doing a service to American. I Guess it gets weird because I mean you're working on indigenous land and stuff but like you're you're preserving that essentially and mapping that out and like adding to that heritage a little more and like it has it's work that has to get done and it's tax money. So yeah. 16:53.50 Jacob Arnzen Right? Yeah yeah. 16:59.60 Jacob Arnzen Are. 17:01.84 alifeinruins Yeah, yeah, and they pay off your student loans if you work for them for 10 years straight so yeah so do that? Um, thanks Jake you know so much for coming on and chatting with us. 17:08.69 David Howe Do they. 17:09.26 Jacob Arnzen Um, it's true. Yeah, it's. 17:19.38 alifeinruins Really appreciate it. Um, any recommendations for lit for Obsidian stuff that you can think off the top of your head if not. We can put some stuff in later or what what your character should be um. 17:26.80 David Howe Or customizations for your ship on at port and see if thieves. 17:35.60 Jacob Arnzen Um, ah just just by my thesis and um, no, there's a lot of good books out there for well or just just articles really about upsidian in Oregon um, the ah. 17:39.83 David Howe But by your thees. Ah. 17:39.84 alifeinruins Proquest Jacob Barnes in will. Ah. 17:51.53 David Howe A clash of Kings dance with dragons. 17:53.31 Jacob Arnzen Dan Subber and Cra and Craig Skinner wrote a really good articleacle on class buttes the history of class shoots and so um, let's see what else game of Thrones Dragon glass yeah that 18:01.29 David Howe The winds of winter game of thrones a storm of swords. Yeah, but. 18:06.84 alifeinruins Fuck off. 18:14.59 David Howe Ad dream of spring is the last one all right? We're done anyway. Um, yeah, your thesis are you an amreki or andreki are you with the ah the other guy Lithic guy. 18:19.33 alifeinruins We're not, We're not done with the interview. We're just done with him talking. Ah. 18:23.36 Jacob Arnzen Ah, David's dead i. 18:30.41 Jacob Arnzen Oh which other list this guy. Yeah I'm definitely I drsky I mean yeah, not thought far. Yeah well I mean in Eastern Oreg in Eastern Oregon terms yes it's a hot skip it away. But. 18:32.46 David Howe Book I'll sell you're in Andre Ski cool 18:35.43 alifeinruins Yeah, but what Washington states like hops keeping a jump. Yeah. 18:39.69 David Howe Yeah there I know there's another book people use and they're like a. 18:47.95 alifeinruins Cool. 18:49.61 Jacob Arnzen Ah, yeah David what's the other guy. Okay. 18:50.43 David Howe I Can't remember his name because I'm teaming andreki but there's another lithicx book out there that like I've said I have end address gate. Everyone's like why and they use something else I'm like whoa Um, it might not be by an archaeologist. It might be a vacational list used to archaa. 19:01.81 alifeinruins God What's his name? yeah. 19:03.57 Jacob Arnzen Um, that sent Mike Waters right oh no he was geology geo archeology yeah. 19:10.13 David Howe Ah, remember someone's sitting shitting their pants right now listening to this because they want to say it with that meanme with the kid's veins popping out his head. Um. 19:16.93 Jacob Arnzen Um, ah I can't think of a who it does what was a like the gen pattoire one. No, that's that's french Jean App pattoire 19:18.62 alifeinruins There's the british one. Yeah, there's a british. Yeah, no well all right? Um, well yeah, thank you, we'll put those um links in the show notes. Ah Jacob. 19:26.57 David Howe Shen atoi. 19:36.18 alifeinruins If you had to do this all over again. Would you still choose to live a life studying. 19:48.45 Jacob Arnzen Um, ab so freaking. Luly. 19:49.46 David Howe I thought you'd be 1 of the good ones who said, no, not. But but. 19:55.84 Jacob Arnzen Um, I was thinking like how do I say no in a very funny way. 19:55.88 alifeinruins We're not sad. We're just disappointed. 19:59.54 David Howe Yeah, no, that's cool man and we appreciate you listening to the podcast I remember you telling me, you ended up going to Wyoming because we talked about it enough I mean that was part of your decision. So that means a lot to us and we appreciate you and I got to be good friends with you this summer philn happened every day. It was real fun. 20:07.28 Jacob Arnzen I. 20:18.18 David Howe Working with Obsidian. So yeah, yeah, he dead Jacob was a fire better and naper than me by the way anyone listening um he did do that. Oh do you have any social links. 20:18.21 Jacob Arnzen Oh yeah, was blast. Yeah I brought a bunch of glass Buts with me that was a lot of the city was glass buttes. Ah. 20:23.50 alifeinruins Lies. 20:27.40 alifeinruins And Jacob also liked and reviewed the podcast so you know do that and you might get on there. We're not going to guarantee anything. Yeah. 20:29.38 Jacob Arnzen You'll get there. Or else. 20:36.94 David Howe You want to plug anything you want to plug or I guess you want to peel by your thesis. That's right, Yeah, where can they find your thesis cool. 20:40.90 Jacob Arnzen Oh yeah, yeah or ah, proquest.com 20:44.89 alifeinruins Proquest kept. Yeah like review the podcast rate send us emails yell at David for being a Columbus sympathizer and writing Jane Goodall you know, just keep doing that. 20:49.52 David Howe Yeah, oh my god what do you know about Vasco to gamma though. 20:59.22 Jacob Arnzen Or you yeah or you can just email me at ah our yeah email me and I will send you my resume I will probably be in the show notes I mean my thesis. Yeah, thanks guys? Yeah, ah. 21:07.21 David Howe Cool all right? Well the thanks for coming on. You have died at dysentery. 21:15.60 Jacob Arnzen Ah, reassset sale. 21:16.70 alifeinruins And with that we are out. 21:23.14 David Howe I'm out of town. Oh we're still recording. Um, but yeah, you guys can play. Um Connor don't share way I'll let jacob do it talk like bring up the witty joke 3 2 1 So. 21:23.62 alifeinruins He doesn't have his computer. Yeah yeah art. 21:26.49 Jacob Arnzen Um, oh that's right. 21:43.88 David Howe Ah, um, no like we try to lead it in but I'll do it. Um, Jacob's a fan of the show so he knows what's coming up right now. Conor you got a joke. 21:53.20 alifeinruins What do you call a typo on a gravestone. God Damn it next now we got another one I got another one. Do it again. 21:59.79 David Howe A grave mistake. Ah. 22:02.24 Jacob Arnzen Um, oh okay. 22:09.12 David Howe Um, ah well keep that in because I got it right? Finally all right Connor I heard you have a witty joke. 22:15.93 alifeinruins Did you hear that I got arrested. Yeah I left my car at the bar and took the bus home turns out I was too drunk to drive that too. 22:18.76 Jacob Arnzen Did no. 22:19.20 David Howe Now. 22:29.74 David Howe Um, Wow Topical Yeah, all right guys I'm gonna sign up i' I'm gonna do not come um all right, all right. 22:35.12 Jacob Arnzen Ah, yeah I. 22:37.00 alifeinruins Ah. 22:44.21 Jacob Arnzen Um, please don't ah. 22:46.81 David Howe Obviously Chris Rachel cut that out. But yeah, all right I'll catch you guys later.