00:00.79 Kanye West Welcome back to episode 136 of a letter neurons podcast I am out of the hospital and alive. We are here with Dr Shane Miller and Dr Jesse Tune talking about ah was an ancient apocalypse. Ah Grant Hancock new show on Netflix produced by his son must be nice anyway. I will say before we we get cracking on this. The graphics are awesome on this thing the animations like if you could just animate a cool clovisite that way I would die and then also we may not die. Ah you could the way like the drone shots and the camera footage the cinematography like it's great. So if an archeologist out there has the idea to write a really bestselling book and make a lot of money peddling your you know your grift go ahead and make a cool Netflix show out of it that didn't make any sense probably it's kicking in right now. 00:52.20 connor No, it's like it's like it's like he's got. He's got cosmos like Neil Degrasse Tyson money yeah like where he can like reconstruct. Yeah, it's like. 00:56.67 Kanye West Yeah, Cosmos money but it's all horseshit perfect. 01:02.00 Y_all Queda There are some little interesting tricks if you know gis like what they're doing to get some of that stuff to pop The the Z scale is exaggerated like on a lot of those if you notice like it's like X and Y are. Probably normal scale but they probably have a multiplier on the Z to make the elevations more exaggerated and pop that was something I was noticing on the Surpit Mount one a little bit on the poverty point one but really on the serpent Mount one to make it seem like it jumps out of the. 01:23.37 Kanye West Well yeah. 01:37.34 Y_all Queda Off the ground a little more it makes it pop a little more like I'm not sure how realistic that actually is yeah yeah I mean I've done stuff like that too to try to like make that illustrate it like in conference papers and whatnot. But that's still. 01:38.67 connor Yeah. 01:42.16 Kanye West I Guess it's for aesthetics. But yeah that that it isn't accurate. But. 01:42.28 archpodnet Yeah. 01:52.28 connor Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:54.30 Kanye West Um, no. 01:54.68 Y_all Queda Ah, graphics are great. 01:55.43 archpodnet Yeah, but he sets up serpit mounds like we talked about like he reads off the email from authorities at serpent mounds. He ah. Talks about how archeologists are censoring him because of it. He gets all upset. He's like this is exactly what I'm talking about archaeologists are ridiculing and insulting when you don't agree with their thoughts and then he talks about that's when he first throws in is like I think this site is over 10000 years old and we're all like where's the data and it doesn't show up till later rate explains it. 02:22.34 Kanye West Was well done. 02:23.93 archpodnet Um, and then yeah and then he talks about he does talk about how indigenous people were like sophisticated people that could have done this and like promotes indigenous ability to do that. But then kind of comes back at it to like shame archeologists again like archeologists don't believe indigenous people but they're all gone so you know who knows what indigenous people said it's like wait the fuck a moment. 02:42.42 Kanye West Don't believe in them. 02:43.66 archpodnet Like they they exist still and once again did another quick Google search on like indigenous oral traditions. The serp mounds and a shitload articles popped up so it's like you didn't do your homework dude you're just trying to bring sympathy. He's using it as a mechanism to also hate archaeologists which is like valid. 02:58.44 Kanye West Um, yeah, building is case. 03:02.13 archpodnet Thirty years ago now it's a little different. So. 03:04.69 connor Yeah, and his ah his little companion. This time is ah the neighbor of who owns the land next to um to serpent mounds and is like his ah his expert that he kind of goes to and talks to who is not an archeologist. 03:14.41 Kanye West Serp Mount 03:20.88 archpodnet It just owns the land next door like that's it and like David said he looks like Lindsey Graham and like yeah and he's just kind of there. He's like yeah this is a spiritual place indians definitely build it. No one listens to it like I think it's older like. 03:22.60 connor Um. 03:30.79 Kanye West And sounds like um. 03:40.58 archpodnet He's not an authority in the field and Graham hancocked just like pulled some dude just to so just to reiterate. It's like time out who who are you and why do we care what you have to say and ultimately like anyone with the brain should be like timeout who like the park. The poor park range rep but poverty at poverty point man like got the short end of the stick. For sure in this. 03:59.89 connor Yeah, um, and so and then and in in describing serp mound. He really talks about once again, these alignments of things he says the different coils are pointing in celestial. 04:09.64 Kanye West We know. 04:15.20 connor Ah, strong astronomical kind of locations and it's whatever he kind of has like a whole part where he talks about that. Um, also once again, nitpicking and being just whatever. Um, and the his main point that he his main. Evidence that this thing is 10000 years old specifically like focuses on the head and its location and it's I like my brain can't physically form that argument. 04:44.94 archpodnet Right? But but Jesse you mentioned something in the interim about serpent mounts and. 04:51.80 Jesse Yeah, so whenever anyone's looking at monumental architecture whenever we're looking at these giant you know earthen mounds created across the landscape whether it's North America or elsewhere. They're not a single event. Right? If we look at what people of european descent did on salisbury plain and look at Stonehenge. It's clear that it's been rebuilt and refurbished time and time again people do that to our houses today. We can continually add on and reconstruct them. There's. Really good evidence to show that that's exactly what's happening at serpent mountains as well. There's a really fantastic paper by Edward Herman at all out of the indiana university in Bloomington where they're showing how. 05:40.11 Kanye West So. 05:49.21 Jesse Serpent mound itself has has been reconstructed over time and that there are these quote Unquote Hidden coils of the snake of the serpent that are no longer visible on the surface of the ground but geophysics shows that they're clearly present at. 05:49.94 archpodnet That that's my boss. Ah. 06:08.65 Jesse Different points in the Past. So Then we start down this conversation down this path of you know what these different things point to they've been modified and changed throughout time right? And so I think that's really important to to kind of keep in mind that these are not static things on the landscape right? that culture and people are not. Static and that they're constantly changing and and being recreated right. 06:35.46 Kanye West And I wonder if because he it didn't seem arbitrary the lines he was drawing like like physically from the mouth to the equinox or like the bend of the serpent to like the summer celstice the winter celus or whatever he was pointing to. But then he takes one. He's like if you take the exact center of the coil of the tail and nameim it this way it aims to fucking Zeus' ' balsacck I know what he was talking about. But if you did that with the other versions of the like the mounds that were like under there like if they were probably indiff. Parts like what are those point to he didn't mention that so maybe he just didn't know. 07:15.21 archpodnet Well that brings up but who did. 07:18.00 Y_all Queda Are we not going to collectively laugh at the Zeus' ' balsacck um 07:22.79 Kanye West Um I was trying to think of Orion's belt but I couldn't get the words because it's it's not orion's belt. It's orion's penis is originally what it is. They just say belt. Ah. 07:23.35 Jesse Ah. 07:23.96 connor Ah, so. 07:24.19 Y_all Queda Are. 07:29.90 Jesse Who. 07:30.31 archpodnet Ah, right. 07:35.38 Jesse So. 07:35.71 Y_all Queda Ah, stop. Oh my God but figure. 07:37.28 archpodnet As and sort of what Connor was alluding to is like the crux of of Graham's over 10000 year old argument is that if you he calls it the mouth of the snake. The snake doesn't have a mouth that has a elliptical head and it says if you look at. 07:39.31 Kanye West Are. 07:44.21 connor So. 07:53.75 archpodnet If he doesn't even need point. He doesn't even use 1 of his um animations to actually point use to point where it goes to which was also weird he he was really good at showing lines and angles. But for like his argument on the head. He doesn't actually bring one of those up and he just says this doesn't align with. The summer solstice and he goes and so it's like okay but he doesn't use an animation doesn't it doesn't show it goes into ah some science about how the earth rotates on its axis and how it tilts every now and then. And the last time if you were to take the head now and if it and in order to get it to summer solstice alignment. Um, it would have ah been sorry Jesse just showed Chris make this work. Um. 08:36.36 Kanye West Now. 08:45.63 Kanye West I. 08:46.15 archpodnet Or Rachel sorry I make the make fake make this work the last time it would have been an alignment is at 10 to the last ice age during the younger dryas and like and he doesn't really explain the math behind that he just says like. Yeah, then therefore it must be at least 10000 years old because if everything else is aligned then this would have been aligned but that brings up 2 questions one that that's true then all the other alignments would have been out of place that he talked about in contemporary today like those are based on the alignments today. So the wiggles, the snaketails too. Zeus's ballac those would have been out of alignment so like kind of make messes with it. But then again as Jesse alluded to like it's been changed over time so where did those point to it who knows did has the head changed like we have to read Ed Herman's article on this to figure out where it could have been done but it's like it's a whole, really weird argument that he constructs. 09:19.18 Kanye West Are. 09:38.69 archpodnet That's built on archaeologists are lying to us. We know that at poverty point he mentions how the woodhenge has a bunch of different radiocarbonates once again to Jesse's point that these sites have been um, refreshed over time with new wood poles and everything like that. That's why the radiocarbonates are acting strangely we know this and. He builds this really weird argument through the entire episode that's based on really thin strands of yarn if we're talking about weaving a narrative here on how this all points to his ancient apocalypse and that's when he gets to so if it's 10000 years old you know this is like at the the damn near border of the of the. Last glacial maximum then he goes into like it's a snake you know else who believes in snakes the iroquois who talk about the great horn serpent that and it just bonkers. 10:23.50 Kanye West Well then he shows the wall from game of throne saying like it would be like this is what it looked like at the last ice age but he didn't remove the trees from the animation either. So it's like just the weird Jux position. But it aligns with the younger dryest ten thousand years ago whenever 10:36.19 Y_all Queda Um, yeah. 10:42.31 Kanye West Ah, Ted twelve thousand years ago because he's selling books about the younger dryas and how archaeologists are wrong about it and it just like I was like oh my god anyway, shame. 10:48.94 archpodnet Well it. 10:48.96 connor was wild. it was wild he showed like the J J Abrams wall and then he showed like or no I mean and like the wall and then he showed like J J Abrams like apocalypse happening you know like book and there's like a view in your boom like the under dresses like this since yeah. 10:58.31 Y_all Queda Um, yeah. 11:01.63 archpodnet Yeah, like meteors. 11:04.60 Kanye West Um, ah oh Michael Bank who 11:07.90 connor Yeah. 11:07.32 Y_all Queda Um, I was waiting for the Macedon Transformer 11:08.86 Kanye West So now. 11:11.73 archpodnet You know that was that was the what black power ranger back in the day and mighty morphin that was the yeah but it it ah through this whole episode especially got to that it made me think of his book when we're talking about selling books. 11:15.45 Y_all Queda Um, yeah, yeah, ah. 11:23.47 archpodnet In America before he does this same shit and specifically when talking about a lost civilization which points to Atlantis he compares the pawnee nation specifically our star knowledge to egyptian star coltz and uses that as evidence for a long lost Atlantean civilization that pawne and egyptians came from the same place. 11:42.84 Kanye West Um, it's almost like you guys are looking at the same stars. 11:47.51 Y_all Queda Are oh my god. 11:49.50 archpodnet Ah, it's just but ah. 11:54.00 archpodnet It was was wild. Yeah I don't know, but but but the great horn serp is like a ubiquitous ah story in many American Indian Traditions especially east of the Mississippi and also in the great plains we have ours too. So it was a really weird like here's this evidence here's this indigenous oral tradition from the iroquois who aren't necessarily ancestral to Ohio that talk about a claticismic event that what? ah it was this really weird like this is a serpent mound guess who has a ah. A tale about serpents. It was like really while he's wearing snake gardeners like the whole thing was just like well and then but well this was the part where he's like on a log at night with his journal with his post notes. 12:33.31 Kanye West Um, in a lawn like I think got got lawboed field. 12:44.80 archpodnet And when he's showing the great horn serpit on the next page next to it is thepi is the is a recreation of a spiro gorget which has the the hand with the eye feature with 2 rattlesnakes wrapped around each other like it was just like he never mentioned spiro at any point like it was just this weird. 12:45.10 Kanye West Um. 13:01.87 archpodnet Google he must have just googled like snake artifacts because that's what will pop up is that that figure that. 13:07.30 Kanye West Um, well saramon identified that aorn was the true heir of is illdory because he had a ring with two snakes on it so he didn't put that in that that's true shut. 13:12.87 archpodnet You got to be careful man archaeo Duna Dan if we're wrong, he'll come after us. Oh yeah. 13:17.40 Y_all Queda Oh my God so. 13:18.78 Jesse I mean let's be honest here I mean this type of cherry picking of cosmologies and and symbols right? I mean all of this any 2 points are going to make a line right? I mean. 13:25.36 Kanye West Married she does here. 13:36.10 Jesse Vood on religions coming out of ultimately West Africa turns out a great serpent is really damn important to them too and does he include that does he include serpent gods and any eastern philosophies. No like. It's just cherry picking random shit to make some compelling and interesting I should say um book sales or or Netflix show right? I mean yeah, that's why ultimately we we can't we as a scientist we as archeologists we as. 14:00.65 Kanye West Um, right. 14:05.60 Y_all Queda So. 14:12.92 Jesse Logical rational thinking humans. You know it's a silly waste of our time to quote unquote debate these ideas and these people directly 1 on 1 right? I mean we're we're talking about 2 different things. Um, so. 14:31.68 archpodnet You know else has a giant serpent Imagery Glitch Mob Album Cover Band camp. 14:32.39 Jesse I don't I don't know Oh no. 14:38.56 Y_all Queda Very good, Very good, Very Good. So My my question like here's just like a ah hypothetical that I want anybody like listening to this just to just stop and think about is like that like segment where he's talking about the head pointing at this. Particular direction and the last time that it faced that direction was 12800 which is the onset of the younger dryas ask yourself who's checking his math right. 15:13.79 Kanye West Randall Carlson 15:14.83 Y_all Queda Peer Any peer reviewed article like you've got somebody poor out of like that's kind of you got like at least 3 peer reviewers who are experts looking this over to make sure that you didn't just do dumb math and just there's there's no data here. Like and I'm guaranteeing his books.. There's no,, There's no rigorous justification to back that Up. It's just something that he just sets and it's just like I wish people would have the same skepticism about him making those statements as he's. Inflicting upon the archeological community with his own skepticism towards us and it's like there's how is he? how is he able to like point in our direction without getting the same shit going back at him. From the people who are skeptical of everything. Supposedly it's still. It's It's a weird Judo move. 16:09.33 Kanye West My. 16:12.28 Jesse Um, it's it. It is weird. But then again, it's not we see this playing out in other parts of our lives today, especially with. Political campaigns starting in 2016 right? Where you yell and scream about you know the lack of professionalism and background training that you know the quote unquote experts have. And so these outsiders you know gain and garner all of this attention and become you know these. These people talking about how the rest of you know the professionals don't know what they're talking about right? I mean we we see this in in so many different realms of our lives these days this idea of conspiracy theories where you know the the experts the man. The people don't know what they're talking about so listen to the outsiders who are skeptical of that. 17:11.60 Kanye West Um, the rogues. 17:13.96 Jesse We saw how that played out in American politics right? and this is basically the same thing with this level of conspiracy theory that that's what this comes down to right? It's conspiracy theories. 17:22.78 Kanye West Yeah. 17:23.93 connor I think so there's actually like a weird Tick Tock trend going on right now where there's so ideas is that someone will run up to someone and like say play hit them and like tag you're it and then run away and then as soon as they start chasing him they're like hey stop I don't want to play this game. Ah why are you. Hacking me like it's like they they throw shade at us and then do not and then as soon as we start throwing shade or data against them back at them. They're like oh I don't want to play this game. You're just mainstream archeologists. You're just trying to hide from me and be attacking me etc so we. Engage in this dialogue but they don't want to play. 18:01.90 Jesse Um, yeah, eat. 18:02.69 archpodnet Well really seems like he wrote his first book archaeologists didn't take it so well and he spent like the last three decades in a fucking tantrum and like using it as justification like because he didn't do the proper scholastic research the first time around. He's like clearly had an interest in this and wanted to dip his toes in. 18:13.39 Kanye West Um. 18:22.50 archpodnet Had some crazy theories and the archaeological community was like no you know you didn't go through peer review here's the risk reason list of reasons why you're wrong and he's made like 12 books since then decrying archeologists for being narrowheaded narrowminded and it's like you're not like. The game sucks. But like there's rules for why we have peer reviewed because you need experts to review and make sure you did things right? There are pros to cons to that. But like the biggest pro and what outweighs all of the you know revere to shitty comments like I see you built a car have you thought about using a horse type of shit you know, um. 18:43.10 Kanye West Right. 18:59.82 archpodnet Is the fact that I'm glad I got someone to giggle. Um, ah you know it's like it builds science or you have to make sure your ducks are in a row to to to put this kind of data to make it available and and part of what we're seeing I think. 19:00.86 Y_all Queda Um, yeah. 19:12.60 Y_all Queda Um. 19:17.86 archpodnet As to as to Jesse's comment is the lack of science communication that's occurred in archeology for the past mostly since it's the inception of its field. Um the paywalls that a lot of our scholastic research is behind in the academic language that is just not nearly accessible to people outside of the discipline. And here's a guy who is a trained journalist who knows how to write to people how to spin a compelling argument that's easily digestible because our method of hypothesis testing and building arguments is different than how we've talked about before how a lawyer builds their argument or how other people um process of um. 19:51.10 Kanye West Ah. 19:53.94 archpodnet Critical thinking plays. So. It's like we're kind of knows how to play the field and we're in a different game that is kind of like more exclusive and we're seeing you know he's able to however the hell his son became a Netflix producer and I imagine that's how he got a Netflix show out of this. We're kind of seeing. You know, really we're we're reaping the what archaeologists have unfortunately the the bad crops of not being good science communicators but that kind of leads to this other thing that that Jesse has mentioned is like you know what? what does this say to a nation that. Digest what Netflix is pitching where there is this entertainment rather than science that a lot of people are are watching because this this show has been rated recently. It's been out for like almost a month and it's been in the top 10 I think right now it's it's both in the us and the Uk as the number 2 show right now. 20:31.24 Kanye West Me. 20:47.49 Kanye West Wow. Ah. 20:47.57 archpodnet It's being watched by people like and like I've had and I'm sure you guys have too like I've had numerous people who I haven't talked to in years have reached out to me asking like what are your thoughts on Graham Hancock 20:58.13 Jesse So Carlton that makes me think of of a couple of things and I don't want to talk to you for right now. I want to talk to everyone else. That's listening specifically to well to a couple of groups right? to fellow, professional archeologists. And to specifically non archeologist right? Anyone that's listening if you want to talk to an archeologist. We want to talk to you call us shoot us an email Carlton mentioned paywalls and. I could rant for a long time about science of any field being hidden behind paywalls if you want to read something that a professional archaeologist wrote in a journal just look at their name and Google us we're not hard to find Google us and shoot us an email and we will more than. Happily send you. The thing you want to read and 10 other things that you didn't even know existed and we'll tell you about it over the phone or in the you know a lot right? Please reach out to us also professional archaeologist I challenge. 21:58.43 Kanye West Um, a lot. Um. 22:11.46 Jesse All of us every time you write something. We write something for an academic audience whether it is a book a book chapter a peer reviewed journal article write a companion piece that's tailored to a public audience that is less jargony. And try to publish that somewhere that reaches an audience. That's not professional. Archeologists. We need to do a better job of communicating this information right? like Carlton said a lot of this is on us. Um I challenge all of us to do that. Every time we publish something in an academic setting write a companion piece for a non academic audience and let's see what happens. 22:55.84 Kanye West Right? If you can't fit your dissertation topic into a 1200 character Instagram post like you shouldn't be writing it. That's what I say that most students like it needs to be easy to that digest. 23:06.93 Jesse Um, yeah, yeah. 23:13.72 Kanye West Um, quick and easy. Um, ah. 23:14.90 archpodnet Sapiens blogs are a thousand words and those are quick and easy and not behind a paywall. 23:19.54 Y_all Queda Yeah, if you want to contact me and talk to me about archeology. You can contact Derek Anderson at eta point that a best state that you you? oh. 23:19.74 Jesse Um, yeah. 23:33.11 Jesse Um. 23:33.53 connor I I think all our legal counsel if you have any legal questions to go to Derek Anderson as well. So just all all all all all the communication wants go to him. So. 23:36.21 Kanye West Um, we gotta get on to up. 23:37.61 Y_all Queda Um, yeah. 23:41.43 Kanye West Um, so I know we're running law on time but Jesse brought up a a good point earlier about Netflix has a habit of pushing entertainment over facts and science. Um. I won't iterate it again. But I did film that pilot with that company and it was just like okay like I see what you guys are doing I didn't like it and then I watched dommer recently the the new dommer biopic and like it was compelling I really enjoyed it like it was good entertainment but I looked up. You know what's true about this What's not and apparently they really played up the racism aspect which was like done up because of the times um a lot of it was faked a lot of things in there didn't actually happen. Um, and of course they made dommer look to be like a tragic hero kind of thing but like a Tony Soprano which is. Obviously problematic but I looked that up and my cousin was like why do you ruin these documentaries for yourself and I was like because whenever I watch an archeology documentary There's always 70 % bullshit in it. So like what other documentaries science wise or like murder mystery wise am I getting fed bullshit or fact and like. I think it's a great point Jesse like Netflix isn't going to put out good content. Unfortunately, so it's like I don't know 1 show on there. That's like great for facts. 24:58.69 Jesse Um, so that they they are putting out Fantastic content I Love Netflix but not for science I Love it. 25:06.50 archpodnet I I'm a slut for the crown. 25:10.65 connor Oh my god. 25:10.75 Jesse But they're putting out great entertainment on food. But. 25:13.14 archpodnet It It must be the fratness I mean like I Just love the fucking Royal Drama that's in the crowd I'm like oh yes, give it to me I know this I. 25:14.60 Kanye West But. 25:23.66 Y_all Queda I Have no words. 25:26.29 Kanye West Um, ah they vox explained is a great show on Netflix it really good science. Really good like political stuff. Really good. Stuff, but it's run by a very very like I would say left-leaning news company. You see you're getting like a kind of bias when you learn what they're doing so it's like how much am I getting spoon-fed things you know and like they're not going to put too much rightleaing stuff on there I guess but that's for Ben Shapiro's network network. But. 25:52.36 connor Yeah, so. 25:52.87 Y_all Queda I wish I wish a new show like the Zach Ephron show where he's like running around doing like the alternative like you know, like the the climate conscious kind of food and environmental stuff that like. 25:54.45 Kanye West Um, yeah, ah. 26:11.84 Y_all Queda Ah I wish they'd do something like that for archaeology we need like a Zach Ephron for archaeology just to like cruise around not like time team America like I'm fucking like just it's like engaging good content. That's fun. It's like watching Zac Ephron go to a geothermal facility on Iceland. 26:16.86 connor Um. 26:18.32 Kanye West That's Connor. But. 26:30.80 Y_all Queda And like have people explain how that works and like and it's aesthetically beautiful. It's entertaining and instead archeology gets gramcock. 26:39.28 connor And and y'all y'all have been grahamcock today. Um. 26:39.50 Kanye West Um, and on that note, her. 26:40.17 Jesse No. 26:45.96 Kanye West The cameras right? there. 26:45.99 archpodnet We we've all been Graham Crocked ah yes deaths. Um, and on that note, we'll put. We're going to drum up with a bunch of links and sources. We'll put those in the episode description down below. As well as Shane and Jesse's contact information if you've listened to the show for a while you know these 2 um, so we'll have their emails down below and they're associated social media that they allow to be available to all you goons that ravetously follow us Caleb Welch is already set. We know that? um. 27:16.69 Y_all Queda What what was. 27:18.87 archpodnet Follows us ah follows us already. Ah and I guess yeah, same old same old stuff if you're following on the listening to us on the all showed seed. Please stop subscribe to our show. You've heard me rant about this, you need to subscribe to our show for us to get sponsors and advertiser to help grow our brand. Um. 27:38.67 Kanye West Ah, please remember to rate and review the podcast rating really helps reviewing the podcast are giving us review really helps and I also would like to say I don't think the 4 of or 5 of us wait I could get 1 2 3 5 of us. What. 27:39.70 archpodnet Oh. 27:55.48 Kanye West Wouldn't shame you for watching this show like go ahead and watch hancock show like it's great rate and review that show but also rate and review ours like I Just want you to be skeptical when you watch it and you should be skeptical if you listen ours too because we have our own opinions. But. 28:01.80 Y_all Queda Click. 28:03.40 archpodnet Yeah, yeah, yeah, go go dislike that show. Yeah, go follow it watch it dislike it. That's that's the been the call to action I've seen online is like just dislike the show Tell Netflix This is not okay, um. 28:18.78 Kanye West I Think about that. 28:22.29 connor Think we're not going to ask you they there there ruins people we know it I think we're out. 28:22.97 archpodnet Shane and Jesse we've asked you this question a number of times Connor take it away. 28:30.93 archpodnet Fair enough, we're out.