00:00.00 connor Welcome back to a live in ruins podcast episode one one one I know that you want it to be the dirt podcast but you're stuck at a life in ruins keep listening to us. Um, so we wanted to a lot of what like prompted this. Discussion um, starting with David Anderson and you know ultimately finishing here with Evan is that Carlton went down to Mexico you know did the tourist thing did the Cancun thing you swam with turtles that you know he really experienced like. 00:30.68 archpodnet I Did the Cartel thing Apparently after getting shot at the airport. 01:16.14 connor Least the diversity of like experiences you can get in the yuketan peninsula at least at least partly some of them. You know, mostly tourists and whatnot. But yeah, part of that we just wanted to have this discussion because your experience there was interesting as coming from an academic viewpoint and. Seeing some of these just the way that that people talk about qi chen on the ground like physically there so Carlton do you mind recapping what you Ah what you experienced there? yeah. 01:45.42 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely so I've never done like the tourism bus thing ever and I've never done that but since we were in Cancun for plaid Del Carmen for um, for a week. We'd figured. We'd get out of the resort to go see. Some of these sites so we booked this tour that would visit cheen itself first then it went to the soote where we could swim followed by this maya artesianal workshop workshop air quotes. And where you can also get like local tacos and stuff is like our launch is part of the deal. They were delicious and then we've finished rounded out the trip at a colonial city I forget the name of it but it has a lot of spanish influence. Really cool place. Um, of course me and my partner um at the time. Wanted to go visit quch che because it's a wonder of the world. It has huge significance in our field. We're not myatologists we wanted to see it because we've heard so much about it on the bus right? There was about none from playa to get there on the bus. We had a tour guide. Who is like trying to explain things about the site. Um, and that already kind of set me like what's going on here because he was talking about like Talosh collins and some these groups that were later talking about how the mayat was like really really really really loose with dates of qi chen. And the maya which was already like wait a second he kept conflating like well chee chi eat says like None or something years old and so he kept using like the maya and q chin interchangeably which was already kind of weird. Um, we get to the site. I'm like really excited to learn about the archeology because I'm an idiot but we weren't really talking about the archeology. We would do like this tour around where he would like bring us to a building and we wouldn't know about the age of the building the phases of construction. It was like this building is the observatory. And to be like mayans used to make these like he held up. Basically this like glass um obsidian lens that was polished and be like and you know mayans were so good that they developed these and they could look at the sun and I'm like you can't make polished fucking obsidian like that's impossible without water. Like there's no way they napped this and I'm already like what's going on. He knew a lot about astrology and um I don't say things like the maya weren't military mil militaristic like they didn't have armies. But then we went buy a barrackslater. He's like this is where all the soldiers lived and I was like wait I thought you said they weren't militaristic. 07:20.28 archpodnet You know so I didn't learn about when these things were excavated what they found it was like a tour of these buildings and like I had no context to them. There were no plaques around chi chiniza either. There were no like signs walkways they had maps but they were like gone like I think I took a photo and sent it to the boys and I was like. Don't know where I am um and it was just dated and kind of like what was being presented there but what was heavily present is on all the walkways were so you know stands selling chinese crap like everywhere. Um and the tour guide nice dude. Um, but he would. None thing I think I brought up in last episode like my partner I got frustrated and I didn't want to ask him any questions like this is I'm not getting what I'm here for I was like in a sour mood but my partner was just like I'm just going to see what kind of shit comes out of his mouth. So she's like how did they carve the stones and he's like. They used to take rope and glue obsidian and then they would like saw stones and make them perfect and I'm like what the fuck um, just she was just and and I was bugging. Her was like why are you asking these because I was in that tone like why are you asking these questions. You know they're not true and she's like I know I just want to see what he's said. It's like this is amazing. That is just coming up with this and so. 09:48.82 connor She's just pushing those buttons. She's just like. 09:44.72 archpodnet Um, when we get to I think one of the pyramid the the grand pyramid. You know the the citadel and he's talking about rulers and someone asked about like you know what about sacrifices. And it's like oh the maya didn't sacrifice anyone that's a myth the worst they would do is they'd go capture. Someone's Queen bring her back humiliator and then like let her go and we were like what interesting but what a why is there are barracks here is like well they didn't have soldiers but that's the barracks where the soldiers lived and I was like okay. And then I think last time I mentioned the ball court that Dr Anderson said he wasn't necessarily right, but it wasn't necessarily wrong that maybe that ball court was more ceremonial. We actually don't know what the hell the hoops are for in that context that made sense but he's at the times like oh this wasn't a ball courtt period. We didn't do know the mayas didn't play ball. They didn't know what balls were. And it was just like this crazy I mean the None thing we did. We went in there and we yelled tequila at the wall to hear it you know echo like that was the purpose of us going in that space not to learn about the maya ball game or anything so I didn't get that I was in a bus full of a bunch of american tourists from America who have no archeological background. I went as an archeologist on ah on a green go tour right? like I should have known better. It was my none time doing it? Um, but in contrast to that we went to tooom the next day and that tour guide. Was phenomenal like we told him we were archeologists and like he was like oh what do you guys? want to know and we would like actually have really good dialogue with him and he'd be looking up sources with us and we'd be going through things and he like really geared that experience for us now. Tulum was a None person. Minivan. With a wedding party and then you know Chi Chi Eatsa was like a tour bus with like 50 people like the different experiences. Um, but. 13:59.90 connor You could you say one's a bat bachelor at party and the other was ah you know like a real vacation. So I'm trying to think of like an appropriate. 13:41.80 archpodnet I guess so yeah, it was it. It was they were just very different experiences. But what I what I had kept left wanting was like what really got to me is like move aside the fact they didn't talk about the archeology. It was some of the facts air quotes that he'd bring up and I was like where is this coming from and why is this? How is this allowed because these folks are supposed to be vetted. They're part of a company. They're all private contractors. What's the process like for getting a tour guide and because. Does that mean they're all variable does it just depend on the tour guide that you got because when the none guy going to Che Chi I kept answering all of his questions. He's like what are the 4 domestic kits and I was like beans corn squash and you know and he's like how do you know that I was like I'm an archeologist and he's like stop answering questions. You're done and I was like huh that's interesting. Um, you know like so I was like this is okay so does it just depend like maybe I should have done like a test and like gone on that tour every day and like graded the tour guides but like it's not my heritage and it's not my country. Um, and. 08:07.30 Evan Me. 16:09.38 archpodnet To be fair I've gone through plenty of museums and sites where a docent is talking out of their ass like it's not just specific to quch chi. But I put qi chin on a pedestal because it's a Unesco World Heritage Site you know it's a wonder of the world. So my expectations for the information that I was. Paying to receive was much higher than going to you know Gettysburg. 09:20.22 Evan Yeah, and and I'm going to tell you that was that I don't know where the guide got that information and I'm just going to be honest I've heard pretty much everything but Obsidian saws. That's a new one on me. That's ah. None of all, not a lot of Obsidian yeah, in yucatad right now volcanoes not around so you would have had to import something like that just to so you well anyway, you had a bad tour you know and and again no offense to the guy. Ah, because. 18:12.10 connor Um. 10:31.62 Evan I think kind of the primary lesson. None of the things I learned early on and I have a few friends who are guides at Chichen. Um, so I'm just going to give you my cynical view and the purpose of a guide is not to educate you about chichen the purpose of a guide is to get tips. Will go with our salary. So what most of the guides who are very experienced is that they are not only knowledgeable but they are also great. Storytellers. They're very imaginative in what they say and they're also not going to offend anyone. That's part of the key. Ah there's an interesting anthropologist by the name of ah Ketzil Kotan Yata who would be a good guy to have on this program because he's done a lot of work at chichen and but he also created a framework and I really kind of buy into it and that is that guides. Ah, are presenting a reality of chichen that is I mean there's reality reality right? Which is what actually happened at chichen who were the toltecs. What were the periods of occupation and I got to be honest, those answers are. Somewhat ephemeral after 100 years of study we really still don't know a lot of the answers to some of the basic questions at chichen and and some of some of my book goes into why we don't have those answers and in some of those respect some of those just respectfully are mistakes done by archaeologists. Because they weren't asking the questions or they weren't testing a hypothesis to see if if they could answer you know who the toltecs were as an example were they actually a people and it goes on and on but there are things we do know and obsidian blades we know were not used. To saw blocks at chichin because guess what there are quarries all over chichen and you can see how how they did it? Um, so that's pretty good and and stonework has been going on in Yucatan since time immemorial and goes on today. So none of this is a mystery. Ah, now there's a very interesting thing going on with guides right now and unfortunately you came right at the absolute worst time I'm sorry to say so the guide profession if you go back to when the Carnegie rebuilt and consolidated. Many of those structures along with the mexican government beginning in the mid 20 s and then going all the way up till the mid 40 s and the mexican government has continued that work on up until even today. Ah so in those early days you had individuals who. 16:08.88 Evan A very small number of individuals because tourists were few and they really knew their stuff because they were interacting with the archaeologists. Not only with the Carnegie institution but which did the temple of warriors and but also the mexican government which did the ball court and did the the giant pyramid the very famous pyramid. The temple of. Con so they they were getting information right from the horse's mouth so to speak. But at that time even the horse's mouth was very, ah, let's put it fanciful if you go back to kind of the king of chichen during those early consolidation days of the Carnegie that would be sylvanus Morley and if you go back and read what he wrote in national geographic. For example, it was very fanciful material and he put the maya up on this imaginary pedestal as far as being this superior group of. Ah, the superior culture and now we know today that they were. They had certainly things that made them superior but they were just as warlike they sacrificed. They did engaged a lot of in the behaviors and the actions for which the the aztecs and popular culture are criticized today. So um, the so the guides would kind of take that morally perspective and for many years that was kind of what was done at chichen and so I've read numerous accounts of what guides said and I would say a good chunk of it was. You know as accurate as we knew at the time and a good chunk of it was a romantic story. You know you're one of the examples is who was sacrificed in the sinote sagratto and believe you me, it's a better story if it's a young Maiden. Versus its boys a large number of of young boys were sacrificed in there as well as so women and other people. So I but all the thing is is that these stories have kind of persisted and this has become its own mythology at chichen now the the. Gentleman that you got doesn't know any of this. He didn't know it. He didn't know what was true. He didn't know what was what's the current belief. He didn't know what the popular belief is he didn't know it sounds like he didn't know anything and again no criticism to him because he if he got good tips that worked. But 1 of the problems that they're having right now is that guides you know came out of a tradition from the 20 s and thirty s and it was a small group and they formed a union and they worked very closely and it was pretty much with the barbachano organization that owned ah the ah mayaland hotel. 21:40.22 Evan Which is right in the chichen archeological zone as is they also owned the hacienda chichen after the the Carnegie left and turned that into a hotel so you had this group of guides very dedicated people who were giving continuous tours. And knew their stuff and each one had their own way of telling the story but nonetheless it was it was kind of the popular view of what was going on at chichen the belief of chichen all right. That went all the way up until and then these jobs passed from father to son and it it. And and if you had None sons sometimes it expanded and more and more people became guides well in the 1990 s the mexican government wanted to kind of break up this ah nepotism that was going on and expand the opportunity to other people. And so what they did was they kind of had a cattle call for guides. But there was a pretty rigorous exam that you had to have to be able to qualify and get licenses for a guide. Fantastic a friend of mine was trying out for it when I was down there at one point and i. And I helped him I read the sample questions and it was pretty good I'm just saying it was it was it was pretty good you you had to know kind of know your stuff some of the stuff I I go well this is just flat out wrong, but you know and it wasn't keeping up with the new archeology that was going on. Okay. Not a problem so as some friends of mine became guides at that point and so then they started guiding at chichen those are the guides that are inside the archaeological zone now you have guides who come in from tourism groups like ah the you know the None Carlton that you had ah and they work for the resorts but they are still licensed by Ena and and ena is the federal authority that oversees archaeological ruins and the patrimony of Mexico. So they still have to be licensed. They have to take the exam until recently and somebody figured out now this has been in the news is it true or not nobody's confirmed this but I I believe it so I'm just going to tell you ah somebody discovered that hey somebody. Being a guide's a good chunk. It's a great way to make a living and most of my friends who are guides these are exceptional positions to have in. Ah Yucatan where there's a lot of people who are struggling so whoever this person is and supposedly they have a connection to the president of Mexico. 27:10.58 Evan They arranged for what we would call in the United States Diploma Mills so you could buy credentials to be a guide for fifty Thousand Pesos that's the story now did you have to take a test did you have to go to a school did you have to learn anything. Ah, you know, according to these news accounts. You don't you just pay the fifty Thousand Pesos which today is what is that $2500. That's not a small chunk of change you pay $2500 you get to call yourself a guide now where most of these a lot of these people have now turned up. At Chichen is outside the archaeological zone outside the ticket booth and there was a a pretty popular podcast by a young podcaster who hired one of these guides and had an so experience very similar to the one you had except some of the answers were even crazier. As far as what was going on and the lack of knowledge. So and they're also offering cut rate tours. So ah, the other thing is is that the accusation is that some of these tour companies to save money have been ah hiring these people. Ah. And that so the quality of guide that you're getting There's a very good chance. It's not very good now. The concern that I have is the None identical to yours is that this is a world heritage site this site is very important to Mexico. And very important to the state of Yucatan and why you wouldn't have top quality guides I don't know but I will say one of the things that changed as well as the fact that you have this diploma mill was that? ah ah ena reportedly quit. Meeting with the guides to update them on the latest archeology that used to be something supposedly that was done was that the archaeologist once a year or once every couple of years would kind of give an update and that apparently that's all gone so the quality control for guides is. Is is very sad at chichen and it's something that has to be corrected in my opinion. But again, it's their country. You know if if that's how they want to do it. Um, so far it doesn't seem to be discouraging people from going to chien because even now we're still, we're in the waning. Days of covid but nonetheless there's None people going to show up there this year and that's ah, almost back to historic levels and you add to that that they increase the ticket price by 3 or 4 times. So now. It's I forget what it is 26 or $ 30 u s. 32:41.36 Evan To go into the site. Um, you know I you know I Maybe you maybe you don't need good information. Maybe you know anyway for me, it's It's just a sad thing because I have some friends who are guides and they do a very good job. 41:16.90 connor Yeah I think ah yeah, on that note, we will end the segment but I think we're gonna you know the next segment we'll continue talking about the the future changes in Che Chi Ita and I was Goingnna make something about we'll be back in a minute but I don't I don't know if that's really that funny. 41:15.58 archpodnet Oh boy. Okay, yeah, we're not.