00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to episode one one of a life and ruins podcast we are here with Dr Angela Perry and we wanted to start off the segment by asking you about what you are doing currently archaeologically. 00:11.30 Angela Yeah, sure. Um, so well I'll just start this off by saying like I'm a huge advocate for mental health and mental Health and academia which is a large problem we have we we are led to believe that. 00:22.82 David Yas. 00:31.37 Angela Academia is a monk-like existence to which we shall devote all our time and energy and mental. Well-being to and I lived that life for a super long time and it only led to like a lot of like let down and a lot of. Stress and you know so I was right before the pandemic hit I had a baby and I was on Attorney leave and then the pandemic hit and. Yeah I was living very very far away from my family and my friends and most of the people I knew who I wanted to be around when I had a ah baby and I was locked in in the yeah Uk we were real. We were really locked in so we weren't allowed to go anywhere I wasn't allowed to have like. 01:15.78 David Yeah. 01:21.70 Angela Meetings with other people with babies or any of that stuff and on top of being on maternity leave in academia during a pandemic like it just really took a massive tool on my mental health and I just found myself like a lot of people I know like just being like I want my mommy you know like I want my. Family I want people I know I want a place I'm familiar with um and so I decided I wanted to go home I wanted I was ready to like leave Europe um, I'd been there for 12 years and it was time it was time to go home and at that time I got the opportunity to. Um, work for the company that I work for now. Paleo west in Las Vegas where I'm from and I just thought it was like a great kind of it was a leap because I'd been in academia since you know my ph d um, and I didn't know if i. Wanted to go into Crm or what that meant or how that would change my research trajectory or my academic trajectory did that mean I wasn't academic anymore. All these things. So I came back and I started working for paleo west crm um, and I'm now the head of the Nevada office here. And basically I I run all of our cultural resource work here and so you know Nevada is largely blm um so I do a lot of work with Blm um, a lot of work with mining a lot of work with um the park service and national forest service and things like that and i. Get to see a different side of archaeology than I was doing in academia and you know I used to think that Crm and academia like the 2 shell not never meet that you can't be someone in Sm and in academia and that's just not true. Probably since I've been in serm I've met. More academics in Crm. Um, people who are still publishing amazing papers and doing amazing research and yeah, that world is still really possible. It's just a different side a different side of archeology and I have to say. So I work in Nevada I get to see a lot of amazing. Great basin research rate a lot of paleo indian and archic stuff way more paleo indian and archaic stuff than I would have ever seen in academia you know we're excavating archaic sites every single day that stuff. Essentially goes into gray literature most of the time and like disappears unless someone does something with it which is really my goal with serum is to take these these like kind of gray literature reports that go off to a client or to blm um and actually put them into some kind of context. 04:04.78 Angela That people can see all the amazing things that we're finding in serum. So yeah, the 2 can the 2 can um, coexist um in some kind of positive way if you if you want it to happen and. I Know lots of people now that I'm in cerm who have left academia because they can't handle the mental Toll. It takes the expectations that are put on to you when you're in academia things like that. So Yeah I mean yeah, there's a lot of people who think they'll never leave academia and I. A lot of them in serum Now. So The Pandemic has really changed a lot I Think for all many academics and rethinking mental health and rethinking what they want to do with their lives. So yeah. 04:50.83 archpodnet Is it. Do you find it very difficult to to work in a normal like 8 to 5 job and then also write papers on the side or is that is it because I myself I I don't publish or anything that I'll do a ton of research. But. If I was going to do it I think it would be difficult after working all day to then take that extra time and be like I need to work on this paper or something like that. So. 05:18.83 Angela Yeah I mean it is hard but let me tell you in academia when you're teaching. It's also you have an 8 to 5 job I mean when I'm teaching you know my job is to teach classes and meet with students and prepare materials and. Like the amount of time that you often have within academia to actually just sit down and write papers I mean this is something I got to do when I worked at max planck and it was just like my time was my own and I did what I wanted and had a purely research-based job but within academia within the university system I mean. You know we don't have like a bunch of free time to be writing papers. Um, so you have to pick and choose your time and you know a lot of people are writing papers on weekends and the evenings after their kids go to bed on holiday. You know that's when a lot of papers are getting written. So. It's not too different from that the the tradeoff is in academia often your life and your work never shuts off right? It's just an open flow. You're answering emails at ten o'clock at night and like constantly doing stuff related to academia where in crm largely my job is yeah 9 to 5 and then I don't worry too much about what's going on in cerm on on the weekends or at night. So yeah, you got to pick your battles right? So maybe there's trades pluses and minuses on each side. But um, but yeah this time in my life I'm really loving the kind of. Freedom mentally and within my life. That's your um offers and you can still be in research. Yeah, still still do what you like I'm still publishing papers and yeah, still part of my research groups and collaborations and all of that. 07:07.17 David I think it was like early twenty like during the like right at the start of the pandemic you and I had that like live on Instagram and I think we chated for like 4 hours just on Zoom or whatever. But yeah, like at the like mental health wise I was like. Think I want to get my ph d still I don't know but I like really like my job and everyone was like you know like if you really want to do it just like go do it but I had this conversation with you and you were like if you like your job stay there and like the rest of the world was on fire and I was like that was really good advice. Um. 07:39.90 Angela Yeah, yeah I I you know I struggle because I think a lot of academia is geared towards you can't help it part of our job when you're at a University and. 07:43.60 David Yeah. 07:54.83 Angela I'm a visiting assistant professor at unilv what does that mean it means I teach classes like 1 class of term. Yeah, um, and so I'm not tenured I'm not part of the permanent faculty I teach classes here and there and so part of your job as you know a faculty member is to encourage students. 08:01.21 David Gotcha. 08:13.13 Angela Like go into the grad program. Um, and that's part of the university system is that we need grad students like that's how our departments thrive. Um, but the tradeoff to that is also that not everyone should go to grad school grad school is expensive. Both. Money and mental and time-wise it's a lot of work and you have to really love it and really want it and also understand the job market that you're walking into if you think you're gonna start grad school and you're guarantee you to professorship and you're gonna go off and work at your dream school and be you know. Lecture assistant professor something like that's unlikely to happen given the statistics of how many jobs we have and how many people are coming out of ph d and no one wants to say that and it's ah it's uncomfortable I know that grad students hate hearing that when I tell them it's lost me I think a number of jobs because I just it can't help but be honest about the. The the life that we're walking into as people who are in grad school and I encourage people who really want that life and who are willing to like go through the hurdles that it is probably going to entail and um have the lifestyle that. Can make that successful and are really encouraged to like go into academia later. But also I have lots of great students surging their masters or who do a ph d and end up in Crm and like that's where they want to be and that's like where they choose to end up. And Crm is a viable realistic option right? I most my friends who are in Crm or working for the Blm or the forest service with park service are making more money have more freedom more time more enjoyment than my colleagues are in academia and I think that this um, this. Idea that we often get in academia which is like crm is where where archaeologists go when they can't hack it in academia is like very unhealthy and not true at all like all everyone I know in serum are amazing researchers in their own right. 10:13.19 David Yeah. 10:24.50 Angela Like know the area that they work in like like the back of their hand like could write a lot of people in Academia under the table like I said are making way more money than most of my friends in Academia are much happier and in like better mental spaces than my friends in Academia. So yeah. I Feel lucky to have a foot in like both worlds and to see clearly the pluses and minuses of both worlds and I if anything one of my roles I hope in the future is to like encourage students if they want to go on to like a master's or something like that that like yeah serum. Is a totally viable option and like a great option and it's not the default. 11:07.61 David And um, there is that was really well said by the way. Ah. 11:12.84 Angela There's my spiel I've gone on on my long spiel. Yeah. 11:14.80 David No, um, ah when do we live together connor 2015 2016 ah that's how we're in our master's second year of it and there's just a me and Connor just both holding pillows and just screaming into the pillows about like was a stats or something I remember. 11:20.63 archpodnet So yeah. 11:31.70 archpodnet Yeah, is. 11:34.72 David But yeah, it's just like there's times like even in your master's like where you're just like this is so much to deal with and like everyone's like oh like that person's gonna get funding or like I'm not gonna find a job after this and like then you're also like I'm poor. So um, yeah. 11:49.25 Angela Yeah, yeah, it's hard. It's hard financially and mentally and emotionally you know I've watched so many of my friends go like through mental and emotional ups and downs. They're their Ph D in this the. 11:52.78 David It's I Appreciate you being honest about it. 12:07.74 Angela Toll It can take on your family and your friends and your personal life and your mental health and all of that is difficult. Yeah, also in the masters. It's really difficult. Um, and it's not for everyone and um, if it's not for you that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you and more it means there's probably something wrong with the system and Academia. So. Yeah, yeah, and I Just don't think yeah, not everyone needs to go to grad school So when people like you are like oh should I do my Ph D I'm like really think about it like really, you got to really want that life and you have to really want the debt mental Debt Financial debt. Whatever it is that goes Along. With s sinkcing that much time and energy into a Ph D. It's a lot of work and you have to have a real I Probably said this to you like a real path a real idea of where you want to go after the Ph D and it can't just be like well I'm gonna get a assistant professorship. Because that can't be that can't be the the one and only plan right? Um, and so I know lots of people with Ph Ds are super successful in yeah, the Crm system or the government system or things like that so that can also be your plan. 13:02.48 David Yeah, yeah. 13:03.98 archpodnet Listen. 13:14.70 David I think the the most like I guess not hard-hitting but like thing I remember the most but what you told me was like if you think about it practically you have to go take a job wherever you can get it and like if you want to study southeastern archeology you want to live in Nashville you want to live in you know Seattle wherever you want. You're rarely going to get a job in that spot. So like you're going to end up in you know Kansas and like you have to want to live there or you're gonna hate it and I was like oh man that's a good point. 13:39.56 Angela yeah yeah yeah I mean think about the people that you know who have academic jobs like were they from that university or did they have close connections to people at that university or did they work with people at that university or. I mean that's the way it works. Let's take it from me. Don't go and do your ph d in the Uk if you think you want to come back to the us because people are like you're a european archeologist like we're not going to hire you in Arizona or Tennessee or you know do you do local archeology is that part of like your repertoire. So. Yeah, it. It usually ends up that people work and get a job if they do get a job at places that they have been working with those people in the local archeology and have a really deep history with that work and rightly so. But that's why I told you you know if you want to end up in the south you better, go to the south somewhere for your ph d if you want to end up in. You know the intermountain west then you better go to reno or something like that for your ph d because that's your best chance of getting a job in that area. 14:48.61 David Yeah. 14:51.84 archpodnet I mean I think no one. 14:52.40 Angela Well have I sufficiently like Crush the any dreams. But also if you want to do a Ph D go and do a Ph d. 14:57.68 archpodnet What as as as a person who is currently contemplating what the next step step of my life is I needed to hear that. So so thank you. 15:08.37 Angela Yes, yeah, and it's not to like disparage a Ph D right? or people who are doing their Ph Ds or Masters right now because those people have chosen that path and like have an idea usually of what they want to do and I did it and lots of people I know did it. So yeah. You just have to decide What's right for you. 15:26.31 David And yeah, um, and like we only got a few minutes left now. So um, if you had I mean I guess you you've said it now but like you know, anything research wise or you know Lifewise or just you know archeology-wise you would like to tell the world or like you know something about dogs something about. You know, just let you just be you and. 15:49.17 Angela To I feel like I said I feel like I've really been me I feel like I really put it out there. Some people are gonna listen to this and be like what the? yeah yeah, um, yeah I feel like um I feel like if anyone takes anything from this I Hope they. 15:52.57 David I I. We could just leave it at that if you want yeah but. 16:08.76 Angela Take kind of the real like side of archaeology that people don't really talk about all the time. Um, you know the health the mental health struggles the challenges of the the whole thing of grad school of collaborations of doing this thing that we call. Archeology and putting it out there into the world. Yeah, it's not you know we often get I'm sure all you guys get it as well. Like oh you're an archaeologist. It's like indian jones every day you're on Treasure Huntson you know it must be fun. Fun, fun. Are you finding gold or you find a dinosaurs is it. Awesome. 16:44.62 David Yeah. 16:46.45 Angela You know and like there's a lot of challenges to what we do no matter what path you take there's challenges to it and so yeah I hope people who are listening who aren't archaeologists are thinking like wow actually. It's like the same struggle I have working like a 9 to 5 job in an office or you know working at Pizza Hut or whatever we have like we got struggles in archeology too. We're not just living it up with our bull whip. 17:10.90 David Yeah, um, and I just but yeah yeah I was going to say ah if like in one second or so what would be your like opinion on like dogs relative to humanity if you if you want to answer that. 17:13.38 archpodnet Well thank you so much for good. 17:26.79 Angela Oh oh I Just love this quote That's like be the person your dog thinks you are you know, like that's just what I live by you know your dog just thinks you're the best person in the world and most of us aren't or mostly just like not. 17:29.82 David Always wanted to ask you but and. 17:46.27 Angela And so I just try to like be the person my dog thinks I am every day you know when your dog just looks at you like oh my god. 17:56.33 Angela You're so perfect. You're just like I need to live up to my dog's standards. You know that's it. 18:01.33 archpodnet Awesome! Awesome! Um, and be so before we end the show. Ah do you have any um couple sources that you would recommend for and 1 interested in dog domestication or not getting into academia or whatnot. 18:02.96 David That's really good point. 18:16.65 Angela Um, ah yeah I mean actually I think Youtube has so many good ones I love Ed Yong from the Atlantic does like a lot of great stories on our research and The Atlantic has a lot of great little clips on Youtube. About dog domestication based on our stories. There's also a new book out by Jennifer Raf University of Kansas called the origins like the genetic history of the Americas um I'm not plugging that because it talks about our dog research. But yeah, it's a good book. Talk about kind of origins in the Americas another collaborator of mine Clive Wynn has a book out called dog is love and he's a canine cognition specialist who works a lot with us on archeology and genetics and you know doesn't all have to be like. Serious academic stuff like I love all of the like why does your dog. Love you books and you know everything related to like dog cognition and all of that dog's history of the world is another like really good book about kind of the history of the world through the eyes of dogs like how. How they were transported by us all around the world and stuff like that and like I have to say like go back to the original and like white fang and call of the wild like just go back to some like good Jack London get yourself like deep into that dog narrative. Yeah. 19:48.43 David Thats awesome and where can our listeners like find you either on social media I think you're just private but like or your research I should say. 19:54.58 Angela you can't find me, you can't find me there's no finding me I'm like so sadly not integrated into a lot of that stuff I have a Twitter account I never post on it. Um, so you can't find. 20:10.80 David Do you have a research gate or like a academia. Okay, cool. 20:12.90 Angela Can't find me I have a research gate in http://academia.edu yeah you can find me there. 20:17.39 archpodnet Cool. Well we'll put. We'll put a link to that in ah in the show notes. Um and because this is a life in Ruins Podcast We have to ask you a very and very important question. So if you were given the chance again would you still choose to live a life in ruins. 20:32.77 Angela Yes, of course what else would I do. 20:36.25 David Awesome! Um, well I guess this is Carlton's line nope it's my line. We just interviewed Dr Angela Perry you can find her here. We'll put it in the show notes and guys please be sure to rate and review the podcast provide feedback. Whatever that you know? yeah. 20:40.58 archpodnet Yeah. 20:54.13 David Every every episode I Yell at you guys to do this. Just do it. Um, this was a great episode I think you know is head on over be like this was a great episode hit the you know the star button All you gotta do? um and I think now it is time for conner's Corny joke. 21:10.77 archpodnet No costs This one's bad. So did yeah, did you hear about the candle that quit his job. He burned out. But. 21:11.94 David Oh yeah, this is something we do at the end of every episode. 21:17.57 Angela Let's hear it. I I didn't oh I mean it sounds familiar. Ah, love it. That's not that bad. 21:28.36 David Ah, all right? Um, yeah, ah yeah I Guess we're out. 21:30.70 archpodnet Ah. With that and and.