00:00.00 David Welcome back to episode one one of life neurons podcast I can never remember we're here with Dr Angela Perry um and in the interim we were nerding out about rock art still um and she mentioned that she worked at the the mox plank as how I apparently' supposed to be said. 00:18.55 Angela Get fancy. Yeah yeah, um, I'll just be american and say max plank um, and yeah max plank is really an interesting kind of system within Germany so there are I think something like 71 Max Plank institutes 00:19.52 David Um, but like Costco's there are multiple is that is that right. 00:38.44 Angela All around Germany and every maxlan institute focuses on a different kind of theme and then within that theme there are various departments so our max plank is the was the max plank for evolutionary anthropology and then within that when I started we had. Um, a kind of linguistics department and we had a genetics department and then we had a psychology department and the human evolution department which is what I was in and then eventually the linguistic department closed and then we got an hbe department that replaced it so we're all generally tied together. Ah, with some kind of theme. Um and then do our kind of separate things within our department and there was another max fink that was what are they called andna not too far from us the science of human history or something like that. That's very closely related. They do genetics and archaeology as well. So um. They opened not that long ago and we have a kind of close relationship between the 2 departments or the 2 kind of ma leg institutes. 01:40.70 archpodnet Cool is it. Those are really well funded I feel like I always hear like that's like the gold standard That's where you want to go if you want to do some research, especially any genetics research has it seems like it all comes out of that right. 01:52.93 Angela Yeah, yeah, so um so like I said okay, there's many right and they have various themes biology computational genetics engineering like they're just kind of everything and they are incredibly well funded. Um. Partially private funding and then partially like which should german taxpayer money goes towards a max fun institute. So yeah and I for my experience. Um german people are really proud of the work that's done at the Max Fe institutes and how kind of prestigious they are um. And yeah I mean max plank is such a unique opportunity to to do research on your own terms to have tons of funding and to have essentially a free reign of where your research goes so that has its pros and cons right. So you have to be incredibly self-disciplined and incredibly like in control of your own research and driving your own boat because you have so much independence at a max playing institute that that can sink you if you don't kind of utilize that to your maximum advantage. So. Yeah, but I mean what an incredibly unique experience that you know I will never experience again. The freedom and financial like support that I got being in a max bank institute for 4 Years yeah 03:20.47 David Um, were you like the person to bring dogs as a like research topic to there or was like Gregor there first or like how did that come about. 03:29.99 Angela Um, so the way that I got involved with with Gregor and genetics in general. So when I was a pc student at Durham Gregor was at Durham he was there as part of a rcuk fellowship. So a five-year fellowship at Durham. I didn't know I didn't know Gregor at all I had no work with him or interaction with him at all and one day I was walking down the hallway and he was like hey are you the girl that does dogs at that time Gregor was deep into pigs and pig domestication and all things pigs and I was like yeah yeah I work out on dogs and he was like. I'm interested in starting to work on dogs and so we had a long conversation about it which eventually became a p and Es paper in 2012 about dogs and the combination of archeology and genetics to look at dogs and then kind of kicked off our. Long relationship that we have now pairing archaeology and genetics which I think has been incredibly successful I think in my experience like a lot of archaeologists like are weird about genetics and think that geneticistses don't know a lot about the archeology or care which is. True in some cases and so I think that Gregor and I have been able to strike a really nice balance in putting both the archeology and the genetics at the forefront and not letting 1 lead because when that's the case right? It's always the genetics that. Become the like star of the show and the archeology gets pushed to like a supplemental where it's like also we excavated this site period and you know so the the archeology never gets to be like the star of the show and in our kind of collaboration. I was very insistent that the archeology needs to be just as important as the genetics and he has really embraced that and he has an archeology background as well. So yeah, we've we've managed to really do a lot of great collaboration in that way and. You know, a lot of my colleagues are like how did you manage to be first author on like a largely genetics based paper. That's so weird and it's because I I don't let the genetics take like center stage right? The archeology is just as important and my colleagues understand that and believe that as well. Yeah, and so Gregor's moved on to Oxford now he's been in Oxford for a while now and so then I'm associated with that really long name that is difficult to pronounce at Oxford. 06:01.92 archpodnet Very cool. Ah so what? what aspects of genetics are you studying in dogs are you studying like um when yeah I guess what? what aspects are you studying as as part of this. 06:15.79 Angela So when I first met Gregor I wasn't really into domestication necessarily I was very much into just how dogs were used as tools and technology and Gregor was like oh I'm really interested in domestication and I was like okay like yeah that sounds kind of interesting all all. Give it a go and like get in there with you. Um, and so since then our goal has been the goal of everyone who studies dogs which is like how when where why the answers which we do not have the answer to any of those things. Um, but yeah I mean that's been our goal right? our our real like desire would to be tracked down the stock population which gave rise to to dogs and I think with our recent paper in ps um, we we made a pretty good attempt at doing that at saying where and when we think dogs were were likely domesticated i. I'm convinced that dogs are domesticated in in Siberia or Beringia um, and are very closely associated with the peopling of the Americas and ancestral native american populations most likely domesticated wolves and then. Came with them into the Americas so I'm convinced that that's that's the that's the story. Um I find I find it hard to understand genetically um timing-wise morphologically how we would get to any other story with domestication of dogs. Largely because I mean bear with me a minute but we we know we have dogs going into the Americas very early and we know that we have populations who are essentially isolated in in Beringia for some period of time during the standstill. Um, and we know that we have. None or very little gene flow from from human populations into brandia at this time after a certain time. It seems to be seemingly kind of cut off after about twenty four thousand years ago so how do you get dogs into the Americas by. Potentially fifteen thousand years ago or earlier like who is giving people in Beringia who are eventually peopling the America's dogs and and when is it pre twenty four thousand we don't have any evidence of dogs being domesticated before that time period everything we have prior to that time. Period. All evidence points to those being wolves so I'm trying to figure out who got dogs to these people whether people in the Americas um early dogs into the Americas and I can't find an answer outside of them being domesticated and in Siberia or Bengia. So that's kind of where we're going with the genetics is trying to sort. 09:08.22 Angela This question of when and where and how and why. 09:11.51 David That is one of the coolest topics ever. Ah yeah, that's really cool stuff from that population there then how quickly I guess I'll preface this like when the paper came out you mentioned like. Dogs are used as trade items and I never thought about that because you're like you know trading food and stone. You're like my dog actually is really fast. Let's switch. You know, um, how quick did they like populate Europe and Africa and I guess South Asia yeah 09:30.59 Angela 9 Yeah. 09:40.69 Angela So one of our one of our issues in dog domestication has always been. Why can we so anyone who knows the history of dog domestication has seen like we debate back and forth about dogs were domesticated in East Asia dogs were domesticated in Europe no, they're domesticated in central asia know they're domesticated here and we can't. 09:58.62 David So it's lot to keep track of. 10:00.54 Angela Actually we yeah we can't actually figure out why can't we sort that out that seems weird that we can't pinpoint literally anywhere in Eurasia that we think dogs are from and I think it's because dogs are domesticated in Siberia and then went both ways I think they went into the Americas and went. Back into the rest of Eurasia and that what happened is along the way they picked up um Dna from local wolf populations from european wolf populations from East asian wolf populations from central asian wolf populations and that makes us think that we have. Either dual domestication in various places or know they're domesticated here know they're domesticated here. Well how can you be right? and I be right? like that doesn't make sense and I think it's we got this one source population and it's funneling very quickly back into the rest of Eurasia and that's what's making us think that. Dogs were domesticated in all of these places. So I don't remember what your actual question was but that's the that's where I went with that. Ah. 11:01.84 David And neither do I Um oh it was like yeah how did they get to the rest of the world faster. Yeah. 11:08.12 Angela Ah, yeah I think that's how I think that right dogs and trade dogs I very much think of dogs as members of our group but also technology I'm very much like the dogs or technology person right? and I think that dogs can both be members of our group and technology. Um. People move around right? and so dogs move around too and I I all ethnographic evidence suggests that good hunting dogs or good sludding dogs or any dog. That's good at things um is passed on its puppies are passed on um that it becomes an important trade item. Um, and I think that dogs are the same or you know two groups come together and their dog's mate and then that female dog runs off with that group and then they give birth to a dog that has completely weird genetics because it's half something else, right? and I think that dogs are happy to breed with. All sorts of things including coyotes and wolves and all various types of things so I wouldn't be surprised at all dogs are just meeting with each other every time they come into contact and that those puppies are being traded back and forth and right and left. 12:18.26 archpodnet So that's really really interesting I think it's and know David gets really excited talking about dogs and and clovis and I think that's like yeah, that's I think that's what you would study if you went back and got a ph d right. 12:25.53 David Little bit. 12:30.50 Angela Yeah, where are the clovis dogs where are they. 12:32.80 David Yeah, that would be if I found that I would just pass out and be done with I'd be like all right? This is it. Um, and yeah I want to go out to laprell this year I told Todd and Maddie like if they find a dog I bet look at many things. Yeah I was like. 12:40.90 Angela Where are they. 12:49.29 Angela It's over. It's over. Ah yeah, that would be amazing. 12:52.70 David I'll be there that day. Um, yeah, so yeah, it Yeah I don't know if you heard more about that site right now. But there's like a whole house there and stuff and like or they they think there is and. 13:01.63 Angela No I saw that they were back out there but I didn't know what that what they were what the most recent finds were. 13:08.34 David Like Channel flakes and like their their process and everything. Yeah. 13:09.84 archpodnet Yeah, refitting Channel flakes So like broken different parts of the site so they're really actually finding a ton of artifacts now because before it was like you're digging through like calcium carbon and just everything sucks and you're not finding anything. Yeah, but now they actually found like a. 13:24.41 Angela Yeah. 13:25.40 David It's awful. But. 13:28.89 archpodnet Like a lot. They're getting a lot of tools. They're getting a lot of bone. You know it's It's kind of wild. It's like the exact opposite of what they've had for every field season before that. Yeah. 13:37.64 Angela Sounds awesome. Let's get the dog and then we'll just like seal it up that'll just be the bow. Yeah. 13:39.68 David Yeah, like like just it's in that one Quad yeah and some undergrad just like hits up the trail. Um, yeah, so for the audience I guess we got a lot of people that doerm a lot of people that are in grad school and aspiring undergrads. Ah what is it like. 13:52.68 Angela Um, and. 13:59.53 David Being on such big papers and like how do you even go about that or just papers in general as a Ph D student. 14:04.99 Angela Um, yeah, how do you go about being on papers as ph d students I think that that's down to having good supervisors who help you get on papers help you write your own papers include you in their research and um. Make you an important part of the publication process I think that that genuinely for the job market these days like not having publications is not helpful so that you're you're not gonna go very far in the job market without publications and I think that. And a lot of places now people it used to be that people come out of their ph ds with no papers or maybe like 1 paper right? and I don't think that that's the norm anymore I think that supervisors are realizing that um to be competitive on the job market now that you need to have papers. So yeah I think. That being an active integrative part of your own research of the people in your department's research or your supervisor's research is really the way to go but you also have to be your own advocate. Um, a lot of students may wait around for like. Someone to give them the opportunity to be on a paper or to write their own papers. But yeah, you have to kind of take it into your own hands sometimes as well if you have an idea you have the time and the ability to write it and you have the support of your supervisor then yeah I say go for it. 15:33.94 archpodnet So cool. Why are there so many names and on these genetics papers. 15:38.75 Angela Why are there so many names on the genetic papers. Um, there's so many names on our genetics papers because we are very much when I say we I mean Gregor and I and laurent and are kind of primary collaborators. We feel like if someone. Put effort into the work of this paper whether it was you know in the lab or in the field or in the writing of the paper in the data analysis. Anyone who touched the data and made a difference for me I'm like a more is more person. And so if people want to be on a paper that they feel they genuinely contributed to even if it was only in a minor way I'm happy to to add them to the paper. Um, now sometimes yeah that leads to fifty sixty seventy authors on a paper but you also have you know these genetic labs have you know. Ah, person who's in charge and then multiple ph d students and multiple postdocs and you know lab people who all were important to the process of getting us to these results. So the dyar wolf paper that I just published we had I don't know 53 people on or something like that. But. A lot of those are postdocs or phg students or lab people who were integral in in doing the lab work or the analysis and it's hard. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of time and effort and I want those people to be genuinely like rewarded for their contribution. So I'm like get on over here. Um, this paper and I love it. I mean I love the idea of a ph d student having like a science or nature paper. That's no good for them. They contributed. So yeah, the more the merrier. 17:19.56 David Um, on that note, we're gonna do a fourth segment which is the more the merrier so we'll be right back I that wasn't great. We'll be right back for it.