00:00.29 archpodnet Um, go. 00:02.52 alan Welcome back gang. This is your rock art podcast. This is ah Dr Alan Garfinkel the host and we have a blessing to have Carlos gallander back with us and we're taking a very deep dive into the behavior patterns the the habits and habitats of our bighorn sheep friends. But also we're going to talk about hunting and about rock art and about how they relate how the native people relate to following the sheep. Carlos are you there? Great. Well let's pick it up. You were you were getting into some just. 00:33.52 carlos gallinger I'm here. 00:39.34 alan Very important elements. What is it about the land forms that have to be right to hunt a bighorn sheep. 00:47.10 carlos gallinger Well, there's different things you know again, it's it's it's it's it's it's a complex deal but there's certain things. For instance, the the what we call in the hunting world escape terrain so a sheep a lot of times. If you're above it or on the same level. It will tend to be more fearful and in panic and run further away whereas if it's a rough terrain. That's the right kind of rough rough where it's it has the mechanical advantage but no cliffs that box it in. You can get within 30 or forty yards sometimes of an animal like that if he's you know, fifty or a hundred feet above you. It'll have far less fear. But if it feels like it's boxed in or you're too close and it's smooth ground. Then it's going to be a lot more fearful and so there's actually ah like a psychology to the land and then anytime you get near water because predators your mountain lonions your wolves your bobcatcher coyotes. They're all water driven. They cannot live. Without liquid water and when I say water with sheep you have to talk about plants like barrel cactuses and the temperature even shade is a form of water to a sheep but shade doesn't really mean much to a bobcat or a mountain lion or a wolf. They still have to have liquid water. 02:21.10 carlos gallinger All their life or they die and bighorn sheep are well aware of this so any time they close into water their fear level and awareness level goes way up and oftentimes if they even get a whiff of a predator. They'll go to a water source ten miles away they'll just abandon the whole idea of going into it. So. 02:45.50 alan So when you say when you say a whiff what they have ah almost ah, an extra sensory smell the ability to smell their predators and other people tell us about that. 02:51.25 carlos gallinger Oh they can smell you literally probably a mile away under the right conditions and I say the right conditions. Oh yeah, they I've watched because I've actually watched and played the game. We're like okay they don't know I'm here. 03:00.36 alan Come on. 03:09.57 carlos gallinger And if they smell you and don't see you. That's almost certainly going to get a panic response almost certainly you'll see sheep that you know they're not aware of you and you start Moving. Let's say from left to right and you're dragging your scent trail and you'll notice the whole hurdle snap when they realize Wow. And they can tell I don't know how they do it but they can tell you're a predator because if a cow or a horse does the same thing they won't You won't even notice. Ah they won't ripple even a slightest. They just saw some horse over there. You know they they or. 03:42.55 alan But if it's a human but if it's a human being. They know you're a predator yeah or a mountain lion. 03:48.94 carlos gallinger Or a bobcat or a coyote or a wolf they mountain lion. They know what that smell is they actually know and they are what they aren't though is is they don't have a real good sense of um. 04:08.51 carlos gallinger A sheep can run from that smell. But it's on rails. It's like it just knows to get out of there. They they don't have nor do Coyotes or Bobcats Mountain lions and even the wolf doesn't really know like hey there's a sheep He doesn't know I'm there. 04:09.69 alan Yeah, yeah. 04:28.44 carlos gallinger So I'm going to sneak around off to the right and climb up on this hill and and work the wind or some most predators. They just don't know that only humans have that understanding So a lot of times for instance, a sheep. You'll see a group of sheep run over a hill. Not even run if they're running. They're not going to stop but you're unaware of you and they move over a hill you wait a few minutes and pretty soon one of them sheep will come right back over and look back where they've come because they know that they've let us. 04:47.62 alan Yeah. 05:04.54 carlos gallinger They've left a scent trail on the ground in ah in a predator moving you know crossways of that scent trail will pick up on that. But again he doesn't have the imagination to move over to the ride come around this gully and all he can do is. 05:05.42 alan Oh wow. 05:21.20 carlos gallinger Follow that centtra. That's all the imagination he has but he can follow it completely invisible and that he can follow it over Lava rock. But but he's been a. 05:28.33 alan So but that's that's critical to critical knowledge for a big horard is that centrail and trying to identify it if if if a predator if a predator is picking up on that. 05:35.27 carlos gallinger Right? And right and the and the ancient hunters the human hunters understood these things they they had you know this imaginative multidimensional. Ah, idea of hunting that other animals didn't have they would actually get like in like in a wolf's skin to scare animals to another hunter or they would Don ah a sheepskin and big 1 sheepskin to move in but they knew. 06:06.26 alan Big guard. Cheap yeah. 06:13.00 carlos gallinger If you're going to move in on a sheepkin. You'd better. Be you know where you're not. They're not downwind to you because if they're downwind to you. They're going to figure it out. You've wasted your time but visually, you'll fool them. You can fool them visually and and you can even fool them. 06:21.20 alan Yeah. 06:32.76 carlos gallinger Ah I've had more than 1 experience where I was just sitting and curled up in the ground in camo usually and they would see me and usually they could see like the the glisting of your eyes and they could tell it was some sort of a face or something but you were too far away for them to really identify you. 06:46.31 alan Yeah. 06:52.90 carlos gallinger And their their need and desire to herd up would override their fear and they would come right into me I have a video where one got within maybe ten or fifteen feet of me I've had it done with Antelope where they I had one time I was but an antelope and. 07:05.26 alan It. 07:09.40 carlos gallinger This this antelope came right up and sniffed me and the minute it sniffed me it knew it had a problem but it walked right up to me I was laying on the ground and it couldn't figure out what I was and as long as it couldn't figure out its curiosity overrode fear so they have this different view. And the ancient Hunters understood the psychology they could become the sheep and that's how and it it gets you. You can get into all this kind of religious area because you had to become the victim to become the predator and this psychological and and. Quasi-re religiousgious and and philosophical stuff was going on in the ancient Hunters minds. The shamanism based on this you know. 07:51.35 alan absolutely they talk about first of all donning the bighorn sheep horns. They talk about also plucking a bow or producing some sort of curiosity or banging. You know, two rocks together or something. So to like mimic the head buszz. You know, budding behavior. They also they also produce these um dummy hunters to a. 08:12.74 carlos gallinger Well. 08:21.91 carlos gallinger Dummy hunters but you had all, you know it went even like. For instance, the native americans had ah a fantastic um, they could make bow and arrows laminated bows out of bighorn ah horns and they of course she's a bowsring was attendant. 08:31.64 alan Yes, yes yep. 08:39.40 carlos gallinger So here you're you've got this device literally made out of a sheep that you're trying to kill another sheep with but you're trying to kill it to produce life in you and your children and your family So these all these kind of things and this stuff is in the glyphs. There's stuff in the glyphs that you start looking at. 08:44.44 alan Exactly. Absolutely. 08:57.84 carlos gallinger And you begin to just wonder you know the kind of depth and stuff and of course it's all symbolic and it's symbolic to these ancient people not to us so it leaves mystery. But. 09:07.51 alan So so so tell so tell us tell us something about the glyphs and the symbolism and and maybe some of the things you've seen that you believe are associated with hunting or the behavior the habits and habitats of bighorn sheep. Um. 09:24.33 carlos gallinger Well Okay, well one of the ones and again it's it's speculative and you got to accept it as a speculation because we don't have firm knowledge but there was this through. 09:26.50 alan Something that's something that stands something that stands out in your mind. 09:40.78 carlos gallinger Modern photography digital photography. You could take just thousands of pictures. You know where back when it was film. You just couldn't and had develop them and had negatives and you just it just didn't leave you to do. But once I got into digital photography all kinds of stuff all kinds of. Repeating glyphs and there's one that if you ever seen one. You would just swear. It's just somebody was hallucinating on peyote or something. It's like and that it's a 1 ne-off glyph and you'd never really. Think anything you you'd never be in your mind you you would just go as oh look at this sheep glyph and not this glyph. You would never think of it as anything. But once you see how specific this particular glyph repeats and repeats and repeats throughout the great basin. Anyway, you realize that. That it's a repeating glyph so it must have had a a more standardized meaning and again it well what I speculate and again it's speculation it it I think is a gut pile and a gut pile a lot of ah primitive people throughout the world. 10:37.35 alan And what is that Cliff look what does that Cliff look like what is it sure? okay. 10:53.10 carlos gallinger And even really up into up into historic times. Ah people in Europe would use a gut pile as kind of a crystal ball a shaman or or something would look through this and and you know see the future or try to make rain or whatever. 11:03.34 alan Um. 11:10.60 carlos gallinger But it was a mystical thing and of course guts are miss Ah, a gut pile. Why is it there does it have a function you know and well after you've killed an animal typically when you butcher it whether it's a domestic hog or a cow. 11:16.34 alan What is a gut. What is a gut pile Carlos. 11:28.10 carlos gallinger You open up the body cavity and you bring out the the internals and for most primitive people and even early agriculture you aid all that stuff. Not we just mostly eat the muscle today but that wasn't the norm so there's another glyph that happens. Over and over again. Well I shouldn't say that but it happens over I've seen it in the great basin style and there's a really good one in a place called Newspaper Rock where the the hunter it's a hunting scene which is not a very common. 11:56.44 alan Oh. 12:07.40 carlos gallinger Thing where it's a whole scene and the hunter with a bow and arrow is shooting ah, ah in 1 case, a deer in another case I got number of this shooting a sheep a big ram. 12:19.21 alan Ah. 12:22.14 carlos gallinger And the one the Ram is actually looking around and saying man did you really just shoot that arrow up my butt because that's what it's happening and it's like in the in the one that I say the sheep is actually looking around with it's actually you could tell the head is turned but the sheep is profile. 12:27.92 alan Um, ah. 12:37.48 alan Ah, ah. 12:39.41 carlos gallinger And the the arrow. The guy's got a bow in it drawed the line right into the anus of the sheep in this shot exact lasted all the way into historic times the one on Newspaper Rock The guy's on a horse and there's this gigantic deer and he's got a bow. 12:43.13 alan Yeah. To. 12:58.26 carlos gallinger And it's in it Actually it's got the arrow stuck in the sheep or the deer excuse me with like blood coming out I mean it's like it. It's right at the rear end and I believe that it's a poison arrow that it's an enema if you will. We don't know that. But. 13:02.16 alan Um, yeah. 13:11.78 alan Um, okay, ah. 13:17.67 carlos gallinger To see this shot replicated and when hunting scenes are so rare and it's this particular shot. It has to carry your imagination somewhere you know and then another one that I think is has some. 13:22.61 alan Um, yeah, ah sure. 13:36.65 carlos gallinger Interest is the aoladdle. Um the aoladdle there are glyphs that almost photographically reproduce the adoaddle and there's one actually ah in in the little a area. 13:37.00 alan Yeah. 13:54.92 carlos gallinger Actually show 2 different designs. It's like the Ford and the Chevy of of of addleatles. But most of the atle atles are reduced to a circle with a line and I believe that is showing that the real. 13:58.90 alan Ah, her. Okay. 14:09.41 alan Um. 14:14.49 carlos gallinger Center of gravity of their um, iconography their symbolism was basically something drawn in the dirt with a stick or your hand the symbol with the atleatle if you were to draw one in the sand it would be a circle. With the line through it. You wouldn't start with the circle and then the line only to the circle stop then start the line at the other end of the circle. You would do a circle scratch right through it with the line and it kind of in that symbol I think is gravitated toward being drawn in the sand. And I think a lot of glyphs have that that center of gravity of their of their their artists just like if you had if if you see ah an ancient Roman statute in an ancient Roman Painting you you. know those are from the same air and the same culture made those. 15:07.74 alan Um. 15:10.90 alan Right? sure. 15:12.90 carlos gallinger Even though they're 2 different mediums and I think the major medium of the glyphs were being drawn in sand I think that you know, um. 15:21.73 alan Makes sense. Yeah, and it sounds like that that would be a preliminary picture of what they're going to produce in the ah on the rocks. 15:26.60 carlos gallinger Right? And so once you Write. So Once you produce enough you know and maybe this adeatl was a prayer. Maybe as a cult symbol. Maybe it was a clan symbol. We don't know but it was a symbol that meant a lot to them. We know that we can say that and we know that it it has a propensity to be at hunting sites and you know, ah and these hunting sites. You know there's water often water often water with minerals. 15:52.10 alan Absolutely. 16:03.81 carlos gallinger Some Springs and some water has minerals some don't but almost all have some sort of mineral component to them. It's a huge huge part of the understanding of bighorn sheep is understanding. The minerals. The minerals are are crucial. 16:23.57 alan Let's let's stop there and we'll pick it up and focus on finishing it up on the third segment hope you got hope you guys are having a good time out there in rock art podcast land see in the flip flo. 16:28.63 carlos gallinger All right.