00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the rock art podcast episode 23 and we're talking about the rock art of religion or the religion in rock art. However, you want to look at it and talking over the break. You had some some pieces you want to read that are relevant to this topic. So go ahead. 00:16.30 Alan Yeah I want to I want to give you give you a piece of ah directly from some of the writings from Esther Jacobs and tepp for here she goes she goes pre-s shamanic cults cults which appear to have developed before shamanism emerged. And point back to archaic beliefs and practices of an ancient social order in general these cults involve a belief in indwelling spirits of natural objects and forces cults were undertaken and maintained by individuals on behalf of their clan. 00:48.35 archpodnet Um. 00:54.23 Alan Indeed such cults tend to reinforce the idea of Clan unity rather than the integrity of a nuclear family or tribe the deities referred to in those cults were clearly indicative of an archaic belief in a clan mother an earth mother or an animal mother of life. 01:12.96 archpodnet Oh. 01:13.93 Alan And death within the ethrographic tradition when frequently finds a combination of elements Dotta Data Da Um, but this deity protectress of children and of the herd, etc, etc. Anyways, all of this just kind of shouts. 01:33.50 Alan Ah, and sort of is analogous to some of the the ah epiphanies that we've had over the years looking at the coso material and it sort of has evolved ah from from my initial understandings to. where I'm where I'm at now and I'm probably similar to what Esther has thought about over the years as well. Um, this first came to my attention about the possibility of understanding these. 01:57.36 archpodnet So. 02:09.53 Alan Decorated animal-human figures because of ethnographic work I was doing with the kowayau I was there for 4 years studying them and finally I began to read the ethnography and not just the ethnography but talk to the people and then learn about. 02:14.50 archpodnet Oh. 02:28.75 Alan Their oral traditions and sacred narratives and their deities and when I began to study those and read them which is something that archeologists typically don't do I was struck by the parallels. 02:42.47 archpodnet Ah. 02:47.50 Alan In the descriptions of a singular deity and the depictions on the rocks in the Kosos and one of these was yachwera who was the animal mistress or animal master that exists in the in the tehachepe mountains. Who would have dressed in a quail robe and would have in fact, ah, hunted acquired quail and then also was the author of and responsible for the revivo. 03:09.14 archpodnet Yeah. 03:26.25 Alan Vivification The transmogrification the bringing up of the dead and bringing them to life again of the animals after they passed on because they of course were eternal who lived in the underworld and ah. 03:34.24 archpodnet Oh. 03:43.35 Alan Was seen as a animal human figure and we have such a figure on rocks in Paintings. We know of that figure we Sit. We can relate it to a very robust ethnographic record that explains. What we're seeing in great detail and that analog of an animal mother or an animal figure um appears to be quite similar to what we're seeing on the rocks. 04:17.69 archpodnet Oh. 04:20.87 Alan Literally thousands of years ago earlier than the imagery that we see fashioned probably in the late prehistoric. So again again, there was some reason that this particular element of their cosmology. 04:30.45 archpodnet Sure. 04:40.81 Alan Was preserved and again it's striking and and surprising that we can see a detail of their probably very very ancient activities that continued. To be part and parcel of who they were and what they believed all the way into the ethnographic prison. Amazing huh. 05:09.79 archpodnet Well yeah I know I know it's ah it's awesome. How I don't know huggus I Guess continuous and far back this kind of information stretches. You know what? I mean um, it's yeah. 05:21.60 Alan Yeah, yeah, and I guess I guess we should I guess we shouldn't be so surprised. You know if you're if you're jewish if you're catholic you've got ah you know you've got a thousand multi Thousand year record. We've got 2000 years of continuous stuff from our. 05:31.78 archpodnet Oh. 05:37.94 Alan You know the bible and and what we know about our our deities and our traditions but it it still is it still is rather surprising about the resilience and continuity and and the detailed characteristics that are part of these stories. That can perhaps inform us about the archeological record and give us glimpses of the past. So I I Really I know that some people this this brings up a whole other topic but I really do feel. 06:06.76 archpodnet Ah. 06:17.14 Alan That that rock guard has also often shortsrifted in the sense that I think it's one of the most informative and valuable of all data sets that archaeologists have while other people have said well Alan it's only rock car. 06:31.65 archpodnet Um. 06:34.28 Alan But it's a data set. It's a data set. That's no different from other data sets and can be analyzed and can be evaluated and can be cross- correlated with many other data sets and inform on so such a variety of topics and have such a. Such a powerful understanding peering into the the um the minds and hearts of people that lived literally hundreds and thousands of years ago and my word how can you? How can you possibly diminish. 07:00.38 archpodnet Well and not only that. But this is how they yeah and this is this is how they communicated to right? like we often talk about we often Define Prehistoric and prehistoric peoples as. 07:08.21 Alan No, no, please. Yeah. 07:18.47 archpodnet Quote pre-literate or pre-writing right? something like that and but they've been writing on the walls for you know 10 20 30 forty thousand years depending on where you look at in the world and we just don't understand it. We're we're getting them understanding but language that we don't understand part. 07:20.33 Alan Right? right. 07:31.59 Alan And and and and the funny thing is the more we study them the more we begin to understand or at least have glimpses of what they're talking about and there are various ways and means of eliciting. 07:44.17 archpodnet Yeah. 07:51.55 Alan Ah, the details and the communications and the feelings and messages that are embedded in these images. It's not so it's not just graffiti. It's it's powerful messages and images sometimes. 08:03.58 archpodnet Um, right. 08:10.26 Alan Significant stories and sacred narratives that will educate people as to the valuable nature of who they are what they are and what they believe it's It's an outdoor church and um and so that's. 08:25.68 archpodnet Um, yeah. 08:30.30 Alan That's how I perceive it and I think I think native people also have that same same sense. Do you? Ah agree. Chris. 08:38.15 archpodnet Yeah I would tend to just the way you hear?? Um, native Americans discuss even just outdoors and and mountain ranges and things like that in different places that are sacred to them. It's definitely. Ah, sacred spaces for sure and things that we wouldn't necessarily consider that you know your your typical western person. Um, but but it's something something that they definitely do and it's ah it's a worldview that that they have and then they they sketch that worldview onto the rocks to be honest with you and and literally. 09:09.25 Alan Um, yes. 09:10.39 archpodnet Branding the places where that they deem sacred. So it's interesting. 09:15.62 Alan And and it's and it's and it's not that and when you begin understanding the nature of their thinking and how they view the world. It's not that they brand them. Um. 09:23.80 archpodnet Oh. 09:32.32 Alan Would you call it they they don't They don't do this casually. They they perceive this as as an energetic force that exists in the universe and literally the landscape the land and the various elements of the land including the rocks. 09:34.55 archpodnet Yeah. 09:51.72 Alan Speak to them and tell them which ones are the most important what to write where to write it and how to how to grasp these? Um, the the internal dynamics of the universe as they are manifested. There. Right? ahead of them. Um, it's done. It's done through cracks in the rocks. It's done through the the form of the rocks. Ah their sound How the landscape is interconnected how it's formed. All of that. 10:13.46 archpodnet Yeah. 10:30.30 Alan Ah, comes to play in the development of the location and the ensconcement of this rock guard and you know this you've seen you've seen it. We know that that split rocks are by their very nature. 10:38.51 archpodnet Um, yeah. 10:48.75 Alan These are the portals. These are the places where ah individuals can somehow you know figuratively or empirically somehow access the ah these other worlds and um and so we. 11:02.86 archpodnet Um, yeah. 11:06.67 Alan We get that from them and that's part of the reason they'll they'll embellish certain rocks and other ones look like they're great canvases. They're perfect places and yet they're not Ah, they're not predisposed to use those because they don't have the power the structure the the ah elements. 11:19.23 archpodnet Um, yeah, indeed. 11:26.31 Alan That are required for them to fashion the the images. So all of that and much more. So I think there's I think there's a lot more to this than meets the eye and I think the more we begin to think about it. 11:33.91 archpodnet Ah. 11:45.23 Alan And study things in greater detail I think rock art will become more and more informed and informative for us. 11:46.60 archpodnet Yeah. 11:52.90 archpodnet Yeah, absolutely all right? Well I think that's a good place to stop then. 11:59.63 Alan That's my story. Ah, that's but that's that's that's my story I'm sticking to it. Um. 12:03.26 archpodnet Ah, ah, nice. Nice. Yeah I mean the the my real takeaway on this and the real interesting thing about it is there is definitely some rock art that we will never truly know the nature of you know we can guess we can infer based on. Ah, you know, based on some of the things that we do know and through excavation and things like that. But there's definitely some rock art. Especially really, really old stuff that there's there's really no way that we can tell um you know what was going through the mind of somebody thirty thousand years ago that was you know sketching something on a wall. Yeah, but. 12:28.74 Alan No, we remain enigmatic forever. Yeah. 12:38.40 archpodnet It's still really interesting and I think we can walk back What we think we can. We can walk that back. You know to that time period from the current time period. You know, using archaeological interpretation and the artifacts that we find and and other sites that we find and just understanding more and more about you know, native and prehistored peoples and and. The more we build of that puzzle the more we put of that puzzle together and build that picture the more we can understand deeper into time. So um, like as I don't think we'll ever get fully understanding. Yeah, but we can get close. So. 13:04.50 Alan Deep time. Yeah yeah, and and and I and I think we're going to get some interesting glimpses that are going to give us revolutionary epiphanies to different ways of thinking about the nature of. 13:14.61 archpodnet Yeah. 13:21.90 Alan Sociopolitical organization and Kinship systems for ancient peoples that I think will eventually surprise us because it's already happening. It's already happening. 13:22.41 archpodnet Oh. Yeah, indeed right? Okay, well with that I think we'll end the show here. Thanks a lot alan this is a fascinating topic if you've got any questions for Allen his contact info is in the indeed. 13:39.41 Alan You're welcome. Thank you gang seeing the flip seeing the flip flop. 13:46.51 archpodnet If you got any questions contact info is in the show notes. Please check that out at arcpodnet.com/rock art and we'll see you next week 13:56.47 Alan Ah, by gang.