00:00.24 archpodnet Welcome to the rock card podcast. It's Chris Webster which means I'm talking to Allen about something today Allen how you doing I'm I'm doing great I'm in central California actually I'm not that far from you. So. 00:08.21 Alan Good. How are you Chris where are you now. 00:18.54 archpodnet Ah, there's probably the closest will be all year 00:18.72 Alan You're insanely. Okay think you mentioned you were and you might be in San Louis the Bispo County correct yeah oh ok yeah yeah yeah 00:26.10 archpodnet That's right? Yeah actually San Lu Obispo proper the town. So yep, definitely over here and yeah, close to the beach. Actually it's not a bad little place. Yeah. 00:35.33 Alan That's good to have have you at least at least within shouting distance. Um, there's been. There's been a lot of stuff going on in my mind lately and I'm writing a rather important article that sort of is derivative from a book that we recently published. But. 00:45.86 archpodnet Okay. 00:53.58 Alan Part of that relates to sort of the ah evolution of the character of the development of indigenous religion believe it or not to hunter Gatherer religion and how you might be able to perceive that in the world of rock art and I know that's that's a little far out there but believe it or not. 01:00.47 archpodnet Okay. 01:13.58 Alan There is another archaeologist or 2 um, who have done some deep deep thinking on this exact matter and have come to a sort of a similar conclusion as the one that I have. In another publication and so so I think we can kind of begin to sort of stir the you know stir the brew and talk about this thing it it comes down to sort of an understanding as one of the basic and biggest controversies that we have about rock art. 01:36.69 archpodnet Okay. 01:49.72 Alan And that what is the function of rock art and who are the artisans of rock art and that was something that we were mired in for I would say decades in some very very hot and very deep and contested elements. And I think the ah upshot was we began to understand or at least have a um, ah, general tendency that we believe that it was shamans It was Medicine persons who were principally the Artisans who sketched much of rock art. 02:20.75 archpodnet Um. 02:25.91 Alan And so we ah finally deferred to that particular posture. But I think that that is probably an accurate one to some extent. But as one goes back in time. To earlier strata of cultural developments and I'm so I'm talking about 5 six seven Eight nine thousand years ago or more for that matter. Um, there may have been an earlier expression of religion. That what we would call pre shamonic and that was originally mentioned to me by ah, a colleague and I read her book and she um and I thought it was really. 03:06.52 archpodnet Okay. 03:20.55 Alan Rather well done and and well expressed. But I know it was very very controversial. Her name is Esther Jacobson Tepfer and studied the rock art in the altie the home of shamanism itself and what she ended up finding was. 03:27.24 archpodnet M. 03:39.75 Alan Some of the oldest rock art that she was able to examine was of a whole different kind of character. It. It seemed to be less less in the realm Of. Of Shamanic rock art and more about reproductive symbolism. How about that. There's ah, a good one for you I've um I wrote a book about that. Not a book I read an article about reproductive symbolism and talked about that concept. 04:07.29 archpodnet Um, yeah. 04:18.12 Alan But certainly some of the rock art that we see is principally about the concept of fertility. Um, you see it in the images you see it in in the way in which these animals are rendered and you see it. 04:22.49 archpodnet You know. 04:35.98 Alan In the ah kinds of subject matter that are arrayed on the on the rock canvas. Um, and you may have seen that yourself. Do you do you understand what I'm saying. 04:46.70 archpodnet Um, yeah, Oh yeah, for sure I've seen lots of rock art and it's definitely a lot of times, especially some of the some of the later stuff seems to have you know?? Ah, a consistent theme. You know animals and and people and and like which we looked at not long ago and on an and episode of few episodes back. Um, there was definitely a lot of that kind of symbolism on there that you're talking about right now. 05:01.57 Alan Yes. 05:12.80 Alan Right? And we see the animals and we see the symbolism and we see hunting as as sort of a you know a highly um, a Hallmark activity certainly and certainly animals as being a central element. But besides that in certain circumstances. We We get a taste we get ah more than a taste. We even sometimes get a an expression a dominant expression of what we might call. 05:33.80 archpodnet Um, yeah. 05:46.38 archpodnet Oh. 05:49.55 Alan Pre pre-shamanism and ethnographically in the Altie this relates to we you but you could call it a cult almost a totemic cult or an increase totemism. Where we are worshipping perhaps an animal spirit or a god or a goddess and this particular being could be an animal human or ah or a feminine animal human. 06:08.69 archpodnet Um. 06:26.61 Alan Is a primary divinity a deity that is responsible for protecting or guarding or supplying the needs of the indigenous population does that make any sense. 06:46.11 archpodnet Yeah. 06:47.00 Alan So. In other words when they're praying or supplicating or or sort of entreating these particular entities. They're asking for longevity. They're asking for. Ah you know, healthy children. They're asking for rain. They're asking for continued availability of plants and animals that they're relying on that that we can live and that we can we that we can reside and that we can flourish as a people and so that is a very different concept. A very different tradition than examining the rock art from a shamanic standpoint. 07:34.23 archpodnet How much of this interpretation is you know somewhat conjecture based on. Ah yeah, how yeah how much of that is and and how much of it's. 07:38.25 Alan Ground grounded. Yeah. 07:44.90 archpodnet Based on say ethnographic evidence and discussions with native american groups over the last few hundred years 07:45.96 Alan Ah, right? Well, that's a great question. So an example of an ethnographically derived site right? that has an analog for this. 07:54.85 archpodnet Um, eight. 08:02.99 archpodnet Yeah. 08:04.34 Alan Comes out of Australia and what we look at is those um the um particular ah figural entities of bighorn sheep that existed. Throughout the far west and these are those bent little figures that are made of the willow or other plant matter and they bend them into shape and then they are expressed. 08:36.66 archpodnet Here. 08:41.29 Alan In caves. Okay, and these particular figures have been have been shown to be associated with magical properties and with particular you know historic activities where. 08:43.80 archpodnet Nature. 09:00.99 Alan Australian Groups worship or believe they are descended from an animal human person. They're totems but they're more than totems They what they call increased totems. So these totems. 09:13.24 archpodnet No. 09:20.33 Alan Are are you fashion a figure and then you pray to it and then you dance in a fashion that those animals move and you pray to this totem because this is considered to be a supernatural deity and you ask for a. 09:36.36 archpodnet Oh. 09:40.43 Alan Guardian to bless your group your entity your tribe is if you will with a flourishing life. Be it rain be it be it seeds be it, you know, etc. 09:52.98 archpodnet Um, of John. Yeah. 09:58.80 Alan It's called increase totemism now we have a great ethnographic example in several places in Australia historically contemporary ethnographically and we have an analog in Eastern California with a place we call Newberry cave. 10:14.98 archpodnet You know. 10:16.23 Alan Now in Newberry Cave We have these animals that are fashioned from bent pieces of vegetal matter. They are fashioned into representations of bighorn sheep. They. 10:26.22 archpodnet Okay. 10:35.31 Alan In this cave that was a dry cave. They found a dozen complete and a thousand fragmentary examples of these bighorn sheep. They also found magical artifacts where they had ah. 10:54.54 Alan Colorful painted examples of feathers and Quartz crystals that were painted in multicolors. They were paintings on the walls of the shelter of this cave that were done in green white red and black. Of bighorn sheep but also of abstract symbols and there were also elements exclusively from men of a man of a man's hunting society there and there were no examples of any female-related. Artifacts No mattotdies, No Monos No Mortars No Pestals No Baskets Everything was relating to hunting and the hunting magic the kinds of homeopathetic or sympathetic magic that Hunters might do. 11:41.27 archpodnet Um. 11:51.95 Alan To replicate the phenomenon of of sort of divining where the animals would be how to hunt them successfully now in that Cave also were the bones of Mega Fauna of. 12:05.29 archpodnet Um. 12:11.68 Alan Huge animals that lived over twelve thousand years ago so there might have been some relationship there between the cave and the animals and sort of that that sort of supernatural association of hoping that. Some sort of deity existed in that cave and these were the bones of this you know huge animal that led that somehow was a physical manifestation of some of the things they were praying for does that make any sense. 12:44.22 archpodnet It does I've got some questions around that but let's do that on the other side of the break in segment two back in a minute.