00:00.00 archpodnet All right? Welcome back to the third and final segment of episode two fifty seven of the serra archeology podcast we're talking about friends and professionalism and you know I I want to bring up something heather touched on a little bit in segment one but just kind of close this out with an obvious question to be honest and and that is. 00:07.98 Andrew Um. 00:19.78 archpodnet How close a friend should you be with your bosses and those could just be crew chiefs they could be project managers. They could be the company owners depending on the size of the company and the relationship you have with these people I mean I definitely work for companies where I never met the owners never met the pis for that matter. We were just hired to be out in the field and we only met either the crew chief or maybe a project manager and that was it but they're still. You know people in leadership positions at that company whether they're also temporary or they are salaried or you know permanent with that company is not really part of the issue. It's just they're in a leadership position over you so in that context we also are in very crazy situations that most. People are not ever put in right? like Heather, you're talking about working with your company in Southern California but you know while you guys do have projects where you have to stay in a hotel room like every company does you do a lot of stuff locally too and and you might have that ability to just. Check out at the end of the day go home and then you've got your personal life there and and Monday through Friday you're in the office or you're doing local stuff and then on the weekends you know you're doing your own thing with your family like a lot of people who work do so it's a weird conversation to have because a lot of people maybe aren't like close friends with their employee with their their coworkers or even their. 01:30.97 Heather Um. 01:31.15 archpodnet People that work for them or they pretty they work for because they don't have to be right? But when we're out on a project even a long term project or a short term project. It doesn't matter and you're camping or you're in a hotel room and you see these people almost 24 hours a day right? like it's just. 01:44.53 Heather F. 01:47.75 archpodnet It's a lot and it's the whole week and sometimes it's ten days at a time some longer term projects in the middle of the nowhere. You might actually be there on the weekends with other people like on the four days off or if it's five days a week on the two days off because the company's covering that hotel as well. You know it's a lot and it's like if you're not friends with these people. Is ah is your quality of life lower. You know and something like that. But so along these lines. Let's talk about that have you? How do you guys navigate I guess being friends with the people that you may potentially have to let go right? You may potentially have a conflict with or you may potentially like. Like at the end of the day and everybody's having drinks out at the tailgate of of one of the trucks in the hotel room parking lot. do you go and do you go out and have those drinks. Do you go out and and choke around and have fun with them and then the next day you've got to be like hey get your shit together. You know you're doing this. Can you do that? Can you separate those 2 activities in your brain. You know what? I mean. 02:40.79 Bill Yeah I mean yes I can and and I I definitely think that I mean we've talked about it before you have to manage what you're doing and manage the intensity or. 02:42.20 archpodnet Who wants to go first. 02:57.50 Bill The depth or the level of connection right? So hanging out at the tailgate the day is over. We're unloading the truck. Everyone's off. Everyone's talking around. You know that's that's 1 situation to have to go inside take a shower fully get ready and then. Go out to someone's birthday party or or it's time for us all to go to the same restaurant together. Sometimes that seems like it's a bit too much depending on what the the crew is and how you're feeling that day or whether you have dinner in your own room or you know how much you want to be around them additionally but I've always been of the opinion that there's a couple of folks if. 03:19.11 archpodnet And. 03:32.90 Bill Um, friends with and they're on the project. Yeah sure we will hang out we we will go to the restaurant together. We'll hang out in the lobby and have a drink or 2 and if some other person at work that I don't dislike shows up and hangs out then cool for them too. All right I get to know this other person a little bit better. Um. You know, right on they're hanging out with me but I don't I don't ever go out of my way to do the you know work life culture ah team building activity things and stuff like that. Ah, it doesn't seem like it's a problem for me. It can be a problem if we're going. Full distance and partying really hard and then the next day someone's dragon and you know it's because they were hanging out with you and you've got to tell them to get on it and then they give you some pushback because they're your friend. My advice is don't go that far like don't let the previous night's activities hinder what you're doing during the day. Because then you're in an uncomfortable position where someone's arguing but also just their health right? you you went so far that now their health is suffering the next day. Don't go that far so it shouldn't really ever be that problem now if it came down to actually having to lay someone off or fire them. It would have to be because of the the math and the numbers and everything. Ah. It would have to be an actual true reason. Their behavior was truly bad enough that they need to be let go because I wouldn't just do this whole thing of you know you got to lay 3 people off so go through and you know pick out who's going to get laid off and who's not I would say no, you're the manager. You tell me who exactly I'm supposed to tell let go and if it's someone who's. 05:02.71 Bill Busting their hump and doing well I'm going to I'm going to advocate for that person and push against laying them off if they've done something illegal or caused you know huge problems on the crew and you got to let them go and're your buddy they screwed up man they lost the job because they screwed up so it shouldn't be that big of a deal for you know me and my own. You know personality to let someone go they they can't work there anymore because they caused a problem. 05:28.10 Andrew Yeah I would just really agree with what you're saying Bill I think you know in terms of friendship and all that kind of stuff. There is a professional background to all this again. How hard is it to be a professional and be an adult I mean the answer is sometimes it is hard and um I did have a. Ah time once years ago where I did have to fire someone like a real one you know and it was difficult but I had to put my science brain on and look at the data and the data said you need to fire this person you know and we gave them. Chances and I kind of took them aside once or twice and I was like hey man you got to do this this and this by this date if you don't I'm telling you as a friend ah that this is going down and they just did not do it so I had to drop. The acts you know and I'm telling you when you're in that position. No matter how much the data is behind you no matter how friendly you are with the person or whatever man the position sucks no matter what but um again I had to be a professional that day and what I will also say is I saw several people who weren't professionals. On that day who like wouldn't take the final step because they were friendly with that person or whatever you know and I had to um I had to take the reins and um, thinking back I'm proud of myself for doing that but it was it was difficult but it was the right thing to do. 06:59.32 Doug What Andrew did your did the friendship survive that. Well. 07:05.17 Andrew No, but ah it it wasn't a close friendship I'll tell you that much. You know what? I mean um I think if it it was just sort of a friendly work relationship but friendly enough where I appreciated this person. You know that that kind of thing. If It was a close friendship. It might you know depending again if you're just an honest person and you you tell them? what's going down. They might actually realize you know like oh my God Yeah I I really didn't ah toe my own weight. 07:30.41 Heather And. 07:36.69 Heather Yeah I've I've had that situation I wouldn't call the person A really? um, true friend I mean I've been in situations where I've seen people lose their job and I've been a part of that or I've had to actually exercise it myself. It is even. Whether I like the person I don't like the person I lose sleep over it. It is the worst thing to be involved in because you're you're ah you're taking this person's livelihood I'm a really empathetic person and so I'm constantly putting myself in that other person's shoes and it's It's just it's so painful. 07:58.38 Andrew Me too. 08:13.21 Heather It's hard to do whether you like the person who you don't In fact I would say it's just as hard for me. Um, because I remove myself and I have had to let people go and I struggle with it. It's so difficult but I've had you know situations where I've let people go and. You know so as long as you're fair and you tell them and you should never let somebody go without having giving them a chance I mean that's just cruel. Um, unless unless they do something That's just um, you know Unconscionable. That's different, but um. 08:47.20 Heather There's very few things that would call for immediate firing and you know I've had people that I've let go that I am friends with and because they knew that I set it up to be fair I gave them every chance and they understand now and you know what? maybe they were. Not happy with me at the time but now we ran into each other again and they're like cool with it because they know that they've grown up a bit and they realize that I did everything I could to prevent that from happening and it just because of their own actions. Um, you know just had to happen. So I think that you know a really good idea I'm just hearing everybody talk about this and I think that being really intentional with understanding.. What do you consider a friendship because we wrote we throw that word around friendship like I would say that if I go on a. 09:25.42 Bill Um, yeah. 09:43.20 Heather On a project and I don't do this anymore. But back in the beginning of my career and you're on a project for weeks or month or a couple months and you forge this very friendly acquaintance over time because it's hard not to do that when you're with people 24 7 right or you're with them. Ah. Very long days then you have some drinks afterwards or you have dinner together I mean some people like to eat dinner by themselves I don't I like to have people around me I love meeting new people I love exposing myself to different kind of you know cultures or or whatever cultures meeting they live in Virginia and I live in California you know. I I think that understanding that that is different friendship is important. So if people are so if you're saying you know let's let's shy a wave somebody says that I'm going to shy away from a friendship which a different difference and I remember my grandfather would always talk about there's a difference in life. Between a friendly acquaintance and a true friend a friend that you would take the shirt off your back for that person. You would put yourself on the line for that person. Not that you wouldn't do that if you feel that a situation is wrong and you wouldn't do that for a friendly acquaintance. 10:50.50 archpodnet So. 10:57.75 Heather Because you know that in your hard and principle wise that's Wrong. What's happening to that person. But there's other situations where sometimes you wouldn't necessarily have to do that. It's not hurting your you know it's not going against your principles. But this person is a true friend and you're going to step up for Them. There's a difference. And I think understanding that before you get into the emotional situation and Understanding. What is the difference between a friendly acquaintance and a true true friend is important to drawing your lines at work. 11:31.63 Bill And the 1 thing I think when it comes to letting people go though. That's really tragic is when someone at some remote office somewhere starts to add up the budget and they realize that they're going to go over budget and so then there's a call or an email that says 3 people have to go on tuesday. Pick who they are. That's where I'm just kind of like know whoever the person was that added up this budget. Ah you know back at the home office in whatever they're the ones who needs to go through and figure out who were the 3 people not me, um, don't don't put that on me because then it turns into a situation where. Ah, you know your own personal emotions and connection to individuals could protect some folks or could actually like you said take someone's livelihood away just because they'd like to eat in their hotel room and you just didn't really know who they were so that's where I just say no no, you go through and choose the 3 people that you want to get rid of. And then ah you know we'll we'll talk about that but don't don't put me on the on the stand like that and force me to make the decision for someone who just obviously doesn't know how to do arithmetic and that's the reason why we're in this situation right now anyway, so. 12:39.11 archpodnet Okay, okay. 12:41.16 Doug Yeah, so ah, it's kind of like a general series of questions that they're kind related and it was like we've we've been talking about how ah Bill mentioned earlier like staying longer in a job than you're supposed to how do you guys? have you guys are interested. If you have and then how you've done it. Do you calculate sort of friendships inside your calculus of work so like have any of you guys stayed at a job longer because you've been friends with the people even though it can on paper you'd get paid for going somewhere else. Um I guess it comes down to that like you know how much are you willing to pay for your friendships and then also I'm pretty sure all of us have moved across the country or across states except I don't know Andrew ah I feel like you've always been in California but I could be wrong on that. But I'm pretty sure everyone ah everywhere. Yeah, oh it's a surfing man. You can't leave the beach. Um, yeah, but so but it's that general question. It's like have you guys I know we've all moved away from friends and family but have that has that affected where you've moved. 13:38.21 Andrew You're right on, You're right cause I'm awesome. Okay. 13:55.49 Doug Or you know gone to different jobs and. 13:55.76 Andrew I can answer quickly for me. The answer is like in terms of jobs and stuff I'll stay way longer if you know I have friends there and it's a great environment. Absolutely. 13:56.85 Bill Yeah, yeah. 14:07.58 archpodnet Ah. 14:08.20 Bill Nope I'm a I'm a free agent money money is definitely up to very very high on the reasoning behind it and benefits and how it's going to benefit my family so you know I have a family to take care of but even before I was always weighing. 14:11.70 Heather Um, yeah. 14:17.80 Heather Yeah. 14:23.60 Bill Some place may pay me more money but they're not going to give me benefits or their benefits suck. You know those always went into the determination and then yeah region at this point in my career does matter a lot earlier on I was willing to go from here to there to everywhere else, but there's certain parts of the United States that I just don't really enjoy being. And I don't want to work there and I don't see myself living there and so I will stay in a job. That's you know, possibly less good for me if it's in a better part of the country. But once again I'm not afraid to move from here to there for money man just like a true viking. 14:56.56 Heather Um, love it. Love it. 14:57.37 Bill Go go go and take right go and take the the money when you have it and then when they run Out. It's time for you to move on to the next thing or when you think you can get more somewhere else like why would no I've never been in a situation where I would just take less money and ah in less. You know situation because I want to hang out with my friends more and. 15:13.92 Heather On I so I said in our chat yes, as soon as Doug asked that question because I I know I mean it's fresh I've had multiple offers and I've stayed where I'm at because I really feel. 15:14.27 archpodnet Ah. 15:32.55 Heather That I'm doing something um, important that benefits people and I have a loyalty to the people I work with and my and my team um and I it has gone through my head like if I leave what's what will happen to the individual people on the team right? and. 15:34.76 archpodnet No. 15:52.33 Heather I feel that responsibility because um, each 1 is relying on that team and on what we do to put food in the mouths of their families but I totally respect what Bill says because you know what your family does come first and. 16:07.84 archpodnet Yeah. 16:10.51 Heather You know there are sometimes that probably I have made decisions that were not beneficial to my family as much because I've gone through stress at a certain situation. You know in a certain job because it last stayed there longer because of that personal of my. My desire to do What's right for my team and it has hurt me personally and made it much more stressful and I'm you know under a lot of stress which which affects my family and so that's probably not been the best decision in some cases. But I have said no to very good offers. Um, because of my loyalty to my team Now. There is once I didn't and and then my company countered and I stayed but you know it's It's difficult that it's definite and I'm not going to say that I've ever. That I have always made the right decisions. Um, but I I Just being honest I have stayed at a job longer because of the relationships and my my I don't know my loyalty to to to the people I work with. 17:19.65 archpodnet Yeah, well I think there is a lot to be said about loyalty and how you build that actually as an employer. You know what? I mean because you you don't directly employ people Heather but you're in charge of. 17:33.77 Heather True. Yeah, right? no. 17:34.38 archpodnet You know hiring you know people and and and influencing those decisions but you're not, You're not writing the paychecks but that doesn't functionally really matter to be honest, you're you're the one responsible for making their life something they want to continue with that company right? The company's partially responsible with benefits and stuff but it largely comes down to the work ethic that. 17:46.10 Heather Right. 17:52.72 archpodnet You show and the and you know how how projects are run and things like that which is a testament to your leadership skills and abilities and and that's 1 thing that that I really try to work on as well. All the time when I've led projects that had that had people involved for my own company. You know I'm a small company so I haven't always had employees but when I do have employees I almost always try to do you know at the very least some sort of crew event every session you know, however long the session is and you know we'll we'll do a crew dinner paid for by the company. Um, we'll do ah a cookout or something like that if we're out the middle of the nowhere and there there's no place to go get dinner. Like that. But yeah I try to do those things because I try to build those friendships I want the people to like each other I want them to get to know each other outside of walking a transect or you know talking in the truck or something like that I I want those friendships and relationships to be to be made and even if those friendships dissolve at the end of the project. That's okay, but. If you're if you know each other a little better and you're getting along a little better It's just like some of the online stuff we're talking about It's easy to rail against somebody. You don't know with your fingers on a keyboard. But if you know them and you understand their situation and their own personal histories and where they're coming from. It's much more difficult to you know, just just be angry at them. Yeah. 19:04.52 Heather Be angry, take things the wrong way. Yeah. 19:09.21 archpodnet Right? And then that's just a general philosophy for life to be honest with you, you travel more you meet more people you become more tolerant right? And and that's just that's just how it goes so I feel like it's the same way with cruise and and companies and you know teams of people that work together. So all right? Well, we've gone. Way over on this segment There's a lot more. We could talk about. We'll continue this conversation on our slack channel if you're not a member go over to arcpodnet.com/members. You can join in and become a member and and keep talking about this stuff with the hosts and and with other members. And it's really fun and we can also comment wherever you found this Don't do it like in an itunes review or something like that I've seen that we can't respond to those. But if you see us on social media or even on the webp page. You can actually go to the webp page on arcpodnet.com for this episode and comment there not too many people use that feature. And I wish they did more so anyway with that we will take a break and our next episode if we can get our crap together. We may not talk about this at all. But I just want to point out that our next episode is after and this one is before. Our 10 year anniversary of doing this podcast. It's actually like February Twelfth or something like that of 2012 so or 2013 sorry and so so yeah, this episode is before the anniversary and the next episode is after the anniversary. So I just wanted to point that out in case, we don't talked about that on the next episode. So thanks for 10 years 20:32.52 archpodnet With a couple of you on this podcast bill and Doug that have been here since the beginning and and thanks Andrew and Heather for you know coming into this crazy train. Even you know, knowing what we were about and and and still sticking around. So it's ah exactly. 20:42.70 Heather A. 20:46.20 Bill Ah, true friends but you always have surfing. It's all right. 20:46.39 Andrew My professional career. My professional career has been destroyed but ah it was maybe worth it. Awesome! so. 20:52.20 archpodnet It was worth it. That's right, that's right? So all right with that we will see you guys next time on the other side of 10 to start another 10 years we'll see you next week all right? So let me do the outro. 20:54.90 Heather Um. 21:08.50 archpodnet Okay, thanks to everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field goodbye. 21:16.39 Bill Goodbye. 21:17.43 Heather Goodbye. Everyone. 21:19.67 Andrew Brose. This podcast is cool and all but later surfs up. 21:26.97 archpodnet it's it's I'm about to end it. Oh Doug is not good. Dougs is just not going to say goodbye. Okay, that sounds good. That's right, that's right, all right? Well I'm gonna end it Doug is choosing to abstain from this goodbye. So I'll say goodbye for him. 21:29.22 Bill Ah, he's going to make me do ten more years of episodes is what's going to happen. 21:44.61 archpodnet Goodbye. 21:45.66 Heather Good-bye doug.