00:00.00 Heather Welcome back to cm archeology podcast episode two thirty nine we're in our third segment. Um Bill we were just about to touch on. Um, if there is any you know standards. Um that are written for Underbard. Underwater archaeology something that would be very specific when it comes to you know research design work plans. Is there anything out there are you starting from scratch um as an underwater archaeologist when you embark on a on a project. 00:29.23 Bill Burns Well I feel that is something that's actually developing as we speak right? now you know if you asked me maybe 10 or 10 or twenty years ago I would say no, not really, but as things get active. 00:40.72 Heather Ah. 00:46.12 Bill Burns You know, federal and state agencies are starting to Draft Management plans and just practices you know best management practices for for underwater resources. Yeah, used to be more basically would come down to for in cr m. 00:47.62 Heather Right. 01:05.15 Bill Burns Um, you know if you had an underwater project. The lead agency would kind of determine how much needed to be done for to get get through cultural resources and that was always depended on. 01:12.58 Heather Sure. 01:21.46 Bill Burns Whoever that individual reviewer would be you know sometimes they would have really no no kind of background or interest or idea about if Underwater archaeological resources exists at all. So you know a lot of projects could just kind of go through federal estate review. 01:22.38 Heather Right. 01:41.19 Bill Burns With really no consideration of cultural resources whatsoever. Um, but ah, but as sure was at the motorcycl I went by yeah oh sure. Yeah, um, so. 01:45.53 Heather Bill. Can you start that say with no get out of you could hear you could hardly hear what you were saying maybe start the the last sentence again. 01:59.86 Bill Burns Sorry, let me remember why I was saying about out all is me. It's my mind. Um, so so sometimes you would have you know federal or state agencies and it would come down to the the individual reviewer and if he had no idea. 02:00.10 Heather Oh sorry. 02:19.30 Bill Burns Um, you know art underwater archaeological resources may exist or had not really been through it before you know they they might pass through projects. Ah um, without a second thought for for underwater cultural resources. But as time goes on I think. 02:30.15 Heather Ah. 02:38.82 Bill Burns Underwater archaeological resources are coming a bit more into public view and underwater archaeology as a field is kind of becoming more into public view. So as that happens you know state and federal reviewers realize that that that underwater projects do. 02:57.71 Heather Right? right. 02:58.49 Bill Burns Require culture review just like any terrestri or project you know So so it really is ah developing as we speak right now just kind of more more standardized. Best man endpoint practices kind of across the board, especially with this boom for. 03:18.70 Heather Right? Yeah I think that you know as archaeologists when we are especially inerm. Well actually only inerm in Academia you know a lot of it's obviously what kind of grants or or money that you had have at your disposal for the crm. It's the same thing but. 03:18.57 Bill Burns Offshore wind these days That's really kind of brought it to the forefront. 03:34.10 Bill Burns Only. 03:38.30 Heather You know, a lot of times. Um, you know we get pushback. Do we really have to do this and having those standards that are the agencies are putting together that say this you do have to do really kind of takes um the onus off of us kind of takes the. 03:41.14 Bill Burns More. 03:55.14 Heather Pressure off of us and say yes you know these are standards that are expected that are required in order to um, fully um, you know do our job and so I think that that's great that that's happening because. Otherwise I could see a lot of people especially clients. Um, you know that are are this is being imposed on them this this um the survey work underwater survey work is being imposed on them that they could give pushback and say yeah you know I don't think that's really necessary So having those standards. I Mean that's that's why I asked because that's kind of the teeth behind when we're writing proposals is is the fact that yes this does need to be done and to this level I mean it's different than when some say okay you have to do under a lot of times. It's driven by the tribes and tribes say we want under. 04:36.91 Bill Burns Oh. 04:44.76 Bill Burns Sure. 04:47.95 Heather We want some underwater archeology out there but they don't have okay you know or maybe they don't even know you know who would right? it needs to be done in this way and so it's just this blanket we want underwater archeology done out there but exactly what does that mean and so having the standards I think is really important. 04:54.31 Bill Burns E sure. 05:02.32 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah yeah because I mean anyone that's done like torrestru project and try to go back to a client and ask for you know a few thousand dollars for an extra survey and experienced fish but you know knows that and try to go to you know. 05:07.35 Heather That's great. It's good to hear. Yeah. 05:17.90 Heather Yep. 05:20.43 Bill Burns Ah, client and say hey we need to rent this sob saveber tooth RRov for you know a thousand dollars a day exactly yeah and ah, it's real tricky. Yeah. 05:24.24 Heather Yeah, 200000 right? Yeah like data recovery right? That's always how how do we do this? Um, but ah so I'm I'm curious. Let's see I'm a new I'm an archeologist who's who's. You know I have I have some terrestrial archeology experience under my belt or maybe I'm a student I'm a graduate student I'm deciding I want to go into our underwater archeology that sounds really cool if I had to do it over again. I think I would have done it too. Um, so um I can imagine having. 05:54.73 Bill Burns Now her. 06:02.19 Heather Your graduate research with our underwater archeology focused on Underwater archeology would certainly help get into. Um you know, get into the field. But as far as tools go what? what would entail. You know what. 06:11.99 Bill Burns Second. 06:18.91 Heather What would somebody have to have what are the musts. 06:20.58 Bill Burns Yeah, it's um, you know it is it is like we were saying before a very tricky field to get into and of all the underwater archeologists I know it seems all of us had a different routes to get in. Um, myself. Ah, you know when I after my bachelor's degree. You know I volunteered for some underwater archaalology groups and eventually I went to get my master's degree in underwater archaeology with. Famous underwater archaeologistologist Jeff Bailey who's a really really great guy out of University Of York um but that also set me out of the the country to do it and underwater our archaeology can often be a very localized field for. A for an archaeologist in the field now say you only have a bachelor's degree and you really want to get an archeology you want to consider it going to a graduate school for underwater archeology in the states you know Florida University has great program right now. Um, East Carolina had a great program I I'm not sure if they still do but they might and then back back kind of went and underwater archeology in the 70 s with George Pass was getting started Texas a and m was was the place to go but that was that was back in the 70 s and the 80 s. Um, so that's going to grad school I would recommend you know if you don't want to take the time to go into grad school. You know, fully just look for groups really, you could find underwater archaeology groups here and there that are often are run by. Professional archeologists. That's where I gap my third I'm sure there's some in California as well talking to professors will often help because they can you know, get you get you involved in little projects that they have or whatnot. There's field schools are a great way if you don't want to. Fully commit to grad school yet. He could take a field school now to rot ourology. There's there's plenty of them and then you also get you know a fun, fun little diving ah vacation somewhere. Um, as for tools that's actually a good point is people often think that you have to be a diver. To be an underwater archaeologist which is not the case at all tons of underwater archeology is done without diving. You know the endurance is perfect is good. Both is you know? Yeah, absolutely so so this plenty underwater yeah archeologists I have never. 08:59.64 Heather Remote. Yeah. 09:02.41 archpodnet Yeah, that was one of my questions. Yeah. 09:10.91 Bill Burns And in the water at all and if if that's route you want to take Actually there's actually some really incredible places that ah teach specifically kind of remote operateive vehicle or remote sensing Programs. And that is actually a very very useful skill to have especially these days with a technology advancing the way it is so I would definitely recommend looking into kind of remote sensing programs and often those are also well. 09:46.43 Heather Terrestrial as well. Right? yeah. 09:47.78 Bill Burns Terrestri as well exactly. So it's a ah skill that is ah marketable in many many ways. Really. 09:52.73 Heather I really think that that is um, one of the major future sectors of archeology because you know you have we we have an office in Hawaii um, it's you know they're not very the. The indigenous groups. There are not very, ah, let me think here hold on start that over again. But yeah, so so you know for example and in Hawaii I know that there's a movement towards. 10:17.62 archpodnet I Yeah you garful. 10:17.63 Andrew Kinkella That. 10:19.69 Bill Burns Um. 10:29.79 Heather Um, less invasive archeology. So there's a lot of remote work. Um, that goes along with archaeology in Hawaii and that obviously just takes one area to kind of push that to be the driving force behind the technology to make that happen and the understanding make that happen to then. 10:30.80 Bill Burns Um, yeah. 10:49.18 Heather People say hm this could be applied in other areas and we we see it pop up here and there like in the rainfors and in areas where you know people are you know looking lidar technology and being able to find I mean where you even if you're walking on the ground you can't find these and and Andrew can speak to that I mean there's. 11:05.77 Bill Burns There. 11:08.17 Heather You can walk right past a temple right? and not see it. It's that lidar technology. Yep yeah. 11:09.96 Andrew Kinkella Oh man, nobody gets it. Yeah like like I say it and I say it and nobody truly understands like no I'm not speaking in cliches I'm not overstating. You can literally be three feet away and not see it. You know. 11:20.82 Heather Yeah, right? And and so I think this this remote sensing technology when it comes to archeology is not just one of those things that you see on national geographic I think this really is the future. Archeology especially now where drones are becoming ah where you don't have to you know rely on one company that's creating that you know the lidar, the data set and you know we have now you know drones our company has a subsidiary that is just drones and so. The companies are starting to create their own data in order to do this work and I definite and and it totally cuts down on cost just like Chris was saying you know in the initial you know cost of something is is what scares people away I think sometimes um, some of this technology. But once you have it. Oh it just is like a watershed moment you can use it everywhere. 12:18.68 Bill Burns Yeah. 12:20.30 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, you know I would just add to what yeah bill was saying earlier and and Heather what you were just talking about that I will say that my my students who have skills in remote sensing of any kind a lot of them with kind of geography degrees gis that world. They're all getting jobs. They're just. 12:36.80 Heather Yeah. 12:37.40 Bill Burns And it. 12:39.28 Andrew Kinkella All getting jobs and ah for the underwater world I think it would be great to have that plus the underwater thing like I I do sometimes when I have students come to me and they ask me about Underwater archeology and I go. Ah so do you have your scuba certification and they say no I'm kind of like. 12:44.52 Heather Yes. 12:57.40 Andrew Kinkella Get your scuba certification first while while I appreciate that you know doing the remote sensing is a great thing and I do think that is a has a big future. Um I also want the person who does have the tactile sense of what it's like under there you know so I would recommend. 13:08.20 Heather Yes, right right? I agree right? It's like a whole it is a whole other world I just started sailing and I used to look at the ocean and it was just this place that you look at you know is like a lance. 13:09.28 Bill Burns Are. 13:13.54 Andrew Kinkella Doing it all if you because you can. 13:14.10 Bill Burns Sure. 13:23.92 Andrew Kinkella Ah, yeah. 13:24.71 Bill Burns Um, yeah. 13:26.82 Heather Right? It was It was just a place and now that I'm out on the like I understand when I'm looking at like I feel like it's my another home for me now and I I understand currents better I understand and but you know you learn all this stuff in Earth sciences. But I it didn't click with me until I started sailing. 13:32.41 Bill Burns Man. 13:38.75 Andrew Kinkella Yes. 13:43.61 Bill Burns And. 13:45.54 Heather And now I like I understand so I can definitely I do appreciate what bill is saying is that you know don't let that stop you but I do think that you know just like we talk about and everybody complains about the guy who's been. You know, been an archaeologist at their desk for so they don't have an understanding of what it's like to be on the ground. 14:00.40 Andrew Kinkella Right. 14:04.63 Heather And looking at things they don't have the understanding like there's there's people that have never been an archaeologist. They're going to have a better understanding of what um you know what? you're looking at when you're looking at the at the ground and and what what is natural and what is not. You're not going to understand that I would think. 14:07.33 Andrew Kinkella Right. Yes. 14:17.42 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, no, it's it's so true because if like if there's a remote sensing person on the boat and they see something and they're like oh just let the divers go down to five hundred feet so they can grab it. You know it's like no that can't happen. 14:21.20 Heather Personally, you're not going to understand that unless you've experienced it. Yeah. 14:33.17 Bill Burns Man, Yeah, ah yeah, definitely. 14:33.80 Heather Ray. 14:36.51 Andrew Kinkella You know, no tactile knowledge. 14:42.57 Heather M. 14:43.51 Andrew Kinkella And I have obviously killed the conversation. 14:45.65 Bill Burns I get started again I Guess something say if you want to be a freear. Ah um, also with this this remote sensing technology. 14:48.18 archpodnet And as usual. 14:49.30 Heather Ah, okay, yeah, ah what La bla. 14:50.26 Andrew Kinkella Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bill What's up. 15:05.77 Bill Burns Heather you just said a buzzword that also made me Amy excited about is just how innovvasive is and I really feel that was one of the success stories of this endurance. 22 expedition is that they you know they got down there. They saw the ship they recorded the ship. They have absolutely. 15:16.22 Heather Yeah. 15:25.19 Bill Burns Incredible photography of it. You know if anyone listening this hasn't hasn't seen the pictures. Please go online and look at the pictures of the endurance because you. 15:32.19 Heather Unbelievable like you could see the ship's wheel like like it happened yesterday. Yeah I mean like you know they're going around. You could see these like there's a small video and you can imagine they would be going around going I think this is it I'm not. 15:34.76 Bill Burns Yeah, the wheel the name me it looks like they just walked away. Yeah. 15:48.73 Heather But I don't know we we just gotta you know I Just remember like this is what just opened up my mind when I was a kid when when I'm dating myself but when they discovered the Titanic I just was obsessed with it and you know going around and trying to figure out like they were they looked at the smokestacks or like okay this is probably it. They literally just go around and all of a sudden. Oh. 15:55.33 Bill Burns Madam Madam 16:06.95 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, yeah, no argument. What record is there. Ah the. 16:08.46 Heather Um, it says endurance. It's like right on there on the Transom you can see endurance was ah unbelievable. Exactly yeah, it's like it just happened yesterday. It's just and you know that that all you know don't correct me if I'm wrong that all happen because of the conditions because of the the. 16:08.55 Andrew Kinkella Have. 16:27.62 Heather Very cold conditions that do not are not a good home for the but typical bacteria in in organisms that would eat away at a ship is it is that the case. Yeah. 16:36.56 Bill Burns Oh it's certain that? Yeah yeah, the preservation in the the arctic is just just absolutely incredible. You know I think they said when they found the right. There were just some anemmones growing on it but that was about it and the the anemones weren't damaging it and the fact that they can just you know Zoom. 16:38.71 archpodnet Um. 16:46.43 Heather Right. 16:55.17 Bill Burns Around this this wreck take photos. They don't really have to disturb the water or the sea life around it means that the ship will be perfectly protected which is just wonderful. Really wonderful. 16:58.48 archpodnet The. 16:59.47 Heather Right. 17:07.49 archpodnet You know to wrap this up. It's probably too early to tell this since it was literally just discovered recently. Do We know what? any future plans are regarding this I mean obviously they probably want to get down there with some. You know now that we know where it is get them down there with some more equipment and take more pictures and do more scans and things like that. But do we know if there's any recovery effort. That's even possible with this kind of thing or do they even want to do that just like leave it be and and call it. Good. 17:35.44 Bill Burns Yeah I don't think um I'm not sure what their plans are for the future I don't believe there's any kind of recovery effort involved just because that would be 1 that would be a monumental task. Um and two the the risk of damaging the ship would be would be too great. 17:38.86 archpodnet Yeah. 17:46.54 archpodnet Um, yeah, yeah. Huge yeah. 17:55.10 Bill Burns Yeah, exactly um and with technology as it is like you could probably do as much studying of the ship down there than bringing it up Anyway, you know? Yeah, so um. 18:02.30 Heather Yep. 18:02.30 archpodnet Yeah, good point. 18:05.48 Heather Yeah I mean is all the recording and you know the documentation through you know what they have already is better than taking it out and then trying to piece it together and you know for like some kind of an exhibit to see I think. 18:12.56 Bill Burns Exactly. Um. 18:22.25 Bill Burns Yeah, yeah, exactly so the rec now is ah is protected you know because it's it's in Antarctic waters. So it's part of the international antarctica tree. Um, but as far as future ah research expeditions I'm I'm not aware of any I'm sure they'll. 18:22.38 archpodnet Um, okay. 18:22.64 Heather They can do just as much. 18:41.79 Bill Burns They'll be back for for more for more videos and video photos. 18:49.22 archpodnet Okay, all right? well with that I think we will call it good here. This has been a great topic and bill. Thank you very much for coming on Heather Thanks for for bringing bill on this has been really great. Yeah. 19:01.65 Bill Burns Oh thanks so much for having me guys. It's been fun. 19:03.52 Heather Thanks Belle yeah, this was fun. 19:04.88 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, it was great. 19:08.80 archpodnet Yeah, we don't get a lot of chances to talk about underwater archeology on the Sierra Archeology podcast or really any of our podcast. It's such a I don't know it's such a almost I don't I almost want to say fringe kind of topic in archeology because they're just I personally don't know a lot of people that are doing it and. 19:21.15 Andrew Kinkella Um, either. 19:21.93 Bill Burns You agree my god. 19:27.83 archpodnet And not a lot of people have the expertise or equipment to actually do it so it's probably ah, a really small tightknit community. So thank you for again for coming on and hopefully if you guys in your company efforts discover anything or even if you don't for that matter I'm interested in how like you know, survey and and just like planning and stuff like that for. Underwater archeology projects would go especially from a crm aspect for this show and you know maybe in the future we can get you on the archeology show too to talk about some more some more general things in the field. So again, thank you Bill. Thanks Heather! Thanks Andrew and thanks everybody for listening. Okay. 19:57.74 Bill Burns Here I'd love to. 20:02.23 Heather Thanks Chris. 20:03.13 Bill Burns Thank you. 20:07.16 archpodnet So let's keep this rolling bill Now we do ah a little bit of a a little bit of a goodbye that I tack on to the end of the canned outro at the end of the show. So when I'm done talking you can just say Goodbye Everybody just kind of says goodbye at the same time and that's kind of the whole point. So. 20:18.74 Andrew Kinkella Right? Oh and are we doing a fourth segment. 20:18.92 Bill Burns Okay. 20:24.40 archpodnet I Don't know it sounds like we kind of wrapped it up. 20:26.12 Andrew Kinkella I mean I could I could grill bill on his like precise equipment and stuff because I'm curious about it. But. 20:29.50 Bill Burns Ah. 20:31.58 archpodnet So. 20:33.18 Heather Why do I do like 5 minutes or okay wrap this one up in. 20:35.97 archpodnet Yeah, maybe we can. We can probably do something like that. Yeah, let's um, okay, let's ah yeah, let me let me say something here real quick. So um, for our members we' are going to have a force segment where we talk to bill about some of the equipment and other stuff needed for under archeology. It's just a. 20:38.48 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 20:54.46 archpodnet Ah, short little thing for members. So if you're not a member of the archeology podcast number go to http://apodnet.com/members. You can help support us and get access to things like these bonus segments and if you are a member just head again over to http://arpodnet.com click on the login button and go to your member pages and the bonus segments for shows are now contained. Not in the bonus section unless it's ah a one-off self-contained thing. The bonus segments are now located in the ad free downloads area for that show. So you see the regular show ad free and you'll see the bonus segment for it as a separate audio file right there within the within the recording. So again. Thanks for that. Thanks to all our members especially and we will see you next time. Okay, so now let's do the outro because that goes with this bit and then the bonus will we'll start another recording for all right? Thanks everyone for joining me this week thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field. 21:49.39 Andrew Kinkella Um, see you guys next time. Um. 21:49.39 Heather Or the water or we'll see. We'll see in the water for those that are under order archeologists. 21:50.48 archpodnet Check the home. 21:50.73 Bill Burns But I. 21:56.74 archpodnet Who fancy fancy. 21:58.54 Bill Burns That's a good one I.