00:00.00 archpodnet Welcome back to the third segment of Crm Archeology Podcast episode 2 33 we are here with ah louder ibraman and um is cr m archeologist and I think I don't know I'm I'm pretty surprised at how the. 00:09.35 Wouter Yperman Point and it's here parkel and I don't want to surprised to out. 00:18.63 archpodnet Between America and Belgium so many similarities between crm I think and and the belgium serm so louder I'm curious I mean you, you're an a regular listener of cerm archeology podcast have you seen any differences. 00:22.27 Wouter Yperman As and filters. 00:34.92 archpodnet Um, noticed any differences in listening to the episodes that what you experience in Belgium. 00:39.30 Wouter Yperman Um, there are few major differences I've noticed ah for one like I've already mentioned like in Belgium everybody does their master. Um, the education system is so affordable that if you if you can handle it. You just do your master. So there is no such thing as oh we got the bachelor archeologists. We got the master archeologists. We're all masters. Um, well, um, it's one additional year so the entire program is 4 years which means 3 years for a bachelor and 1 year for a master. 01:01.27 archpodnet How long does the how long does a masters typically take 1 Ah ah is that's a big difference one yeah, that's the that's one of the differences. 01:16.75 Wouter Yperman Um. 01:19.38 archpodnet Because here we have the 4 years for our bachelors and most master's programs will take 3 years um and so you know people are anxious to get working right? So I think that's a big difference thinking about having to not only pay for. 01:20.66 Wouter Yperman And both that yeahp and so you know yeah the students loan. 01:35.87 archpodnet For another 3 years in school but also not working I mean although I worked full time while I was you know doing my my masters but you know not everybody wants to do that? Yeah, right? yeah and you don't have that. 01:41.99 Wouter Yperman Yeah, yeah, so but you have to work to pay off your student loan. Luckily we we don't have that if we work now we don't have that and the other difference I've noticed but that is simply because the soil is different is that. 01:53.60 archpodnet Right. 02:01.33 Wouter Yperman Um, what's it called the the little test sps that you do yeah shovel test. That's true. Yeah true I Want to talk to you about that. But I missed the name so we don't do shovel tests. 02:01.53 archpodnet Test pits Shovel test pits. We call them shovel test pits. So We so Okay I. 02:19.64 Wouter Yperman And in 1 of the comments I've done in the on the apn and and also on the on social media. It was like we don't do shovel tats. It's so inefficient. But of course if if all your um, your archaeological stuff is on on the surface. Or very low below that you have to search for that and find it we do trenching so that means we we get an excavator. We remove the tops soil and everything that's in it. Um, and we go um to the the undisturbed soil and we look for features like post solles ditches ah wells. 02:42.19 archpodnet We get activated. Okay, multiple. 02:56.47 archpodnet I think yeah that I think that differs specifically because what we look for at least in in California but I think it's pretty similar across the the United States a lot of times where we're looking for our very small artifacts. 02:57.40 Wouter Yperman Ah, graves and things like that. So. 03:10.99 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah. 03:11.40 Wouter Yperman There's multiple art. Yeah, that's all left up prea right? Yeah, yeah, well, but when we when we look for prehistoric we've got 2 major ways to do that one is is field walking but that are mostly ah sides that are very dense and are. 03:13.90 archpodnet Um, because that's all that's left of the prehistoric um ah deposits and. 03:23.73 archpodnet If people want the. 03:29.81 archpodnet Their technology sure think yes, that's we have that. 03:30.30 Wouter Yperman Partly disturbed by ploughing and the other thing we do is auguring like for instance, you have those those test spts we make a round pit with a shovel and then I say well why not just take an ogre and just drill a hole in it and if through that wouldn't that. 03:37.43 archpodnet We enter one? No yes and I think will point. 03:43.93 archpodnet Right? We can do that? Um, and you know actually I I'm right now we're doing an excavation down in L A and it's all backco trenching. So you know definitely I think it definitely matters in what state that you're working in but we do. 03:47.31 Wouter Yperman Be easier. 03:52.36 Wouter Yperman Actually friendship. So You know it's definitely I think it's. State Yeah was quite a fact pun. 04:02.79 archpodnet Quite a bit of Backo trenching what we call backho trench testing. Yeah right. 04:05.16 Wouter Yperman Yeah, so but and and and wilder. 04:05.91 Andrew Kinkella Right? And and then ah wower I'm really glad we got on this topic because this is what I was curious about sort of the day in the life of the cm archeologist and how it's done. Um I worked in Germany for a summer ah and I noticed some differences and I was wondering. 04:13.49 Wouter Yperman He let my back depth. 04:22.88 Andrew Kinkella Ah, for you guys. So as you're excavating. How much do you collect like do you screen everything. Do you collect everything this screen do you like in it on a typical day. How does that go. 04:30.92 Wouter Yperman Note that ah there is There is very little screening going on. Ah mainly because the the soil is very wet. So only if you have very dry sand you can do screening. Ah so it it wouldn't work otherwise so we collect the the the. 04:39.66 Andrew Kinkella Not him. 04:50.81 Wouter Yperman Charts and and the pieces of glass and metal that that we see when we ah when we know we got a post all you put your shovel. You make a cross-s section of that. Whatever you find there, you collect. It's not like we we sifting through everything of course there are special locations like the bottom of a well and things like that where we do actually take. 05:09.42 Andrew Kinkella Me. 05:10.28 Wouter Yperman Soul samples like in in big buckets and we sift through those but in the field The only sifting we do um is when you've got prehistoric sites but that's a all different kind of archeology. Ah, or. 05:18.49 Andrew Kinkella Right. 05:25.16 Wouter Yperman On rare occasions when you have certain features that are really important and you say well I have to sift through this because otherwise I've got nothing at all. There's certain periods where there's very little material going on. Um, we it's not that we deliberately leave things on the field except like. 05:36.93 Andrew Kinkella Great. 05:44.81 Wouter Yperman Building bricks and things like that you you take a representative site and and the rest you leave or if you got a well you take your samples from the wood. It's not like you you collect every piece of wood of that entire well and you take it home but your regular finds. We just collect everything that we find um. And it depends on on the site it depends on the periods. Ah, how much you can have you have excavations where on an entire day you find as much as what? Ah another excavation has done on a month 06:05.59 Andrew Kinkella And. 06:16.27 Andrew Kinkella Right? right? Ah, no, that's great because that's something that would be a real difference here in most places in America they'd be like oh my god they don't screen everything at all times ever. Um, that's what I noticed too in in Germany and I was also wondering about um like a. Typical excavation size is there a size of ah of a test pit that you dig. Um. 06:39.90 Wouter Yperman Ah, well so we don't do test pits with you trenching so your your regular trenching which is is what I think in America is called a face 2 where you tried to find is there a sight yes or no so with you trenching with an excavator a trench two meters wide 06:48.95 Andrew Kinkella Yes. 06:57.92 Wouter Yperman Up to the undisturbed soil and the excess of each trench is fifteen meters apart and with that you cover more or less 10% of your of a field and depending on what you find there, you make an adjustment is there anything which is question one. 07:01.44 Andrew Kinkella All right. 07:07.26 Andrew Kinkella Then. 07:15.73 Wouter Yperman Question 2 if there is anything is it worth excavating like you may you may find a yeah, you know you do your trenching and you find 2 post holes and all right, you're gonna extend the trench on that location a bit and you find 2 others and you say all right I got speaker I got a small. 07:26.91 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 07:33.91 Wouter Yperman Structure on on the side of a field but that's it this there's nothing else that you say well is there a side. Well technically speaking. Yes, there is but we're not going to excavate this. We're not going to gain any knowledge from that. Um, or you could do a part where you say well the sudden half. 07:35.92 Andrew Kinkella Right. 07:42.35 archpodnet Ah. 07:43.20 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 07:50.82 Wouter Yperman There's a lot of features there northern half. There isn't so we're gonna excavate the Southern half and leave the northern half for for whatever. Um, so we we we ask ourselves the question does this benefit archaeology because. 07:56.61 Andrew Kinkella Um, right? yeah. 08:04.35 archpodnet Um, no. 08:06.80 Wouter Yperman In Flanders which is a very dense populatent area now but in in the past as well. So we've we've got you know every kind of of european country has got ah some kind of representation somehow where in history here. Ah, but it's also very fertile soul. So. There is a lot of archaeology everywhere. The question is is it enough to justify further recess is it enough to to justify the cost of an excavation. So. 08:30.22 archpodnet Um, my this is good. 08:31.81 Andrew Kinkella Sure ah cool and then my last question and I'll ah throw it back out to the panel. How do you guys measure your levels. Do you do natural levels. Do you do so ten centimeters at a time as you go down. How do you guys? Do it. 08:47.54 Wouter Yperman Um, well, that's a question that the the building company also wants to know how deep do you go and then we say to the archaeological level under this one well in building terms that's often called the the solid ground where you build upon. So it's lay it archeology. Is only done in cities and then you're you're really looking for like all right? This is a layer where people have forked or this is a layer where we can see the feature. It's not like we do or I we take ten centimeters we we register everything we've got we lower another ten centimeters we register 09:17.27 Andrew Kinkella Ah. 09:24.83 Wouter Yperman We just go and look for the level where we can ah where we have the features the exception of course is stone age archeology because you've only got your litrical artifacts so there you go by 1020 09:27.44 Andrew Kinkella Gotcha. 09:39.13 Wouter Yperman Or fifteen centimeters you go down and you collect you've got a more or less 3 d 3 d grid there but the other part is just we look for the archeological level and in the countrysides. It's usually 1 sometimes 2 Ah when you've got. 09:41.39 archpodnet I. 09:57.40 Wouter Yperman Ah, soil covering ah older soil in cities. It can be multiple levels depending on um the kind of occupation. You've got there. 10:00.58 archpodnet F. I think although I definitely understand your your perception of shovel test pits and their inefficiencies. Um, you hear at least see your m. It's the first thing is we're looking for absence or presence. You know is there a site there and that's usually what we're doing with the shovel test pits or the backcoat trenching and then the second thing is we do have we have to discuss decide if it's we have to evaluate so we have a have a resource now we're going to evaluate its significance and that was what I was actually kind of curious about was. 10:25.11 Wouter Yperman No. 10:42.85 archpodnet We have some specific criteria that we have to look at um in order to determine whether or not something is considered significant and also depends sometimes you're you are what we call under either ceqa here in California California Environmental Quality act has specific criteria and then you have nepa and then other nepa is the national um, ah the same thing but for the national side of things here and then you know each state not every state some states just fall under nepa because they don't have their own c seqa like California does. Um. But the the significance ah evaluation is very specific and we decide. It's not just you know is this interesting or whatever it is can it which is a lot of the same language that you're using can this contribute data wise to prehistory and his. And history that we do not already know, um and so that usually is kind of that threshold of whether or not something is significant. So if we determine that a site or resource is significant then the next question is with development when it comes to c or m. Is. It feasibly avoidable and so we only do data recovery if it is not feasibly avoidable. So in CRArcheology the idea is to always preserve and protect. Um I'm sure it's the same thing in Belgium. Um. 12:09.20 Wouter Yperman Ah. 12:14.62 archpodnet But our jump is not just right away to do data recovery data recovery only happens if um, well, there's 2 2 aspects but more commonly it happens if that resource is not avoidable like some through design change for the development or or whatnot. So is that the same in Belgium. 12:34.52 Wouter Yperman Um, well two things. Ah the idea to preserve archaeology is one of the basic concepts of the treaty of aladda so that's the first thing we also look like ah cannot just say in c 2 unfortunately in 99% of the cases. It's simply not possible. 12:42.93 archpodnet Ah. 12:53.88 Wouter Yperman To keep it in Si you So yeah, so that's why we do excavate and do further research. The second part is there is not unfortunately a strict framework of um how valuable is something in archeology. So it's most likely. 12:54.97 archpodnet That's about the same. Yeah. 13:12.62 Wouter Yperman The gut feeling of the of the archaeologist who is working there. Ah the other archaeological features that have been found in the area so there is a database that we can consult on on. It's a gis layer on what has been found in the area so you look at that you lo look like you know. 13:23.98 archpodnet Um, near that. Yes. 13:31.42 Wouter Yperman Like the example of' you got 2 post holes and 2 others Paul yet. That's not it. It doesn't bring any value to it so we leave that which is the case in in if it's so clear. Ah so there is not strict framework also all the reports. All our advice is reads. 13:51.13 archpodnet I know. 13:51.37 Wouter Yperman By ah the government they've got their own archaeologists and they are controlling us and they are putting out rules and they have the final words so we can say this is not worth excavating. They can disagree and then we either provide a better argument. Why it's not worth excavating or. 14:02.72 archpodnet Right? okay. 14:11.11 Wouter Yperman We change all argument and say okay, we're going to excavate that. So um, they're also yeah, it's It's basically the same thing. Um, there are a few things that we are missing that we know we we there is a lack like for instance. 14:15.16 archpodnet Um, we have the same thing. Yeah. 14:27.46 Wouter Yperman You've got from the the Roman period into the middle ages. There is a gap. What's happening there. But of course you have to find those sites to to be able to to answer that question but there's not a strict framework. It's more like is the site going to be dense enough big enough to provide any. 14:39.60 archpodnet Um, right? So you know as far as shovel test pits and at least in California and I think this is the case in many of the States Union in in the US is 14:45.85 Wouter Yperman And New feasible knowledge. 14:57.90 archpodnet The shovel test pits are are a little bit easier to control than a backhoat trench. Um, and whether that's true. It's definitely the perception and a lot of the the reason why we do and more so it's becoming more and more the case that we do crm and when we excavate or when we're. 15:00.60 Wouter Yperman No. And. 15:17.62 archpodnet Trying to at least get an absence presence Even if we don't think anything is there is motivated by tribal Consultation. So the tribes more and more are pushing that unless you can point to the fact that the disturbance that is proposed. Is going to occur within foreign fill Soils. So soils that at some point have been brought onto the site and that it's not going to be impacting native soils they their assumption is that there is something there no matter what even if there's there's no other proof of that and because of that. 15:40.91 Wouter Yperman Ah. 15:54.73 archpodnet You're seeing more and more of these probing the shovel test pits to really see if something's there. Um, even if you don't have previous ah you know previous evidence or at a site that's already been discovered and you know there's good reason for that. But I'm I'm curious. Are you know. As far as tribal. We have our tribal consultation here that's becoming more and more a part of archeology is there something that's similar to that in Belgium. 16:18.38 Wouter Yperman Um, well we've got no tribal presence here because I mean I am a native so we don't have got that aspect ah within archeology. Um yes, well. 16:26.15 archpodnet And right. You have stakeholders you have? Um, yeah. 16:39.60 Wouter Yperman It's like I've done an excavation on a graveyard just in this in the center of the city and there were people passing by who were very interested in that there were people who were a little bit afraid of it because they are after all human remains. But yeah, very very few people. 16:57.25 archpodnet Yes. 16:57.44 Wouter Yperman Who have a problem with us who say why? just not leave them there that leave It's very very limited. So the way we handle all that people is completely different than how ah your native Americans handle their ancestors and because of that difference. 17:01.84 archpodnet Sure. 17:13.95 Wouter Yperman Of course you look at archeology and then especially cemeteries completely differently? Um, but to go back to the yeah the difference between what we do trenching. We only have 2 people so like I have got to go trenching and it's me. Ah, second person was also an archeologist and then an excavator with with ah a driver in there and that's it and on on one day we can do one hectare of of field testing which means of that one hecta we do 10% um like with your shovel tests. 17:38.36 archpodnet Okay. 17:52.59 Wouter Yperman What I've seen is that there are a lot more people there so active on the terrain and they're they're looking for stuff if we would do the same in Belgium we would find something on every side so that's why why? we we don't just it's it's too dense. Ah and and. 18:02.96 archpodnet Um, sure. 18:10.88 Wouter Yperman Well, we are looking for features. We are looking for signs of occupation whether it's it's building or graveyards or construction sites in the past you know next to the river bank where there could have been a bridge over over road next to that. So the way we handle archeology. Or look at it is is different because we are the natives we are basically excavating our own history. But of course every nation in Europe has has been into Belgium to flanders being the battlefield of Europe ah so we we find ah. 18:32.85 archpodnet Yes, yeah, bright. 18:48.38 archpodnet Yeah, well as as humans we always we. We do have a type we we want to come together. But we also have a tendency to divide and I think I was kind of curious from your perspective if there were you know there. 18:48.86 Wouter Yperman Proof of every kind of civilization in Europe ah in flanders. Oh. And. 19:07.96 archpodnet There were any differences I know that you know so you're not dealing with the same things that we're dealing with here where we have unfortunately um you know communities that have been um, severely impacted by the colonization of of the of the United States and and because of that. You know they now are being given an opportunity to have a say and to ah protect at least some of the the history underneath you know in the ground that that still exists and so that I could say that that's different I just was wondering if there were any. There's any process for stakeholders but it sounds like There hasn't been um, a movement towards wanting to have that. So even with history. We have with architectural historians or with historic archeology. We still have stakeholders that are involved in the consultation process here in the United States and so that's interesting. That's that's a major difference I think and it definitely makes a difference in in how you do archeology. So um. 20:07.95 Wouter Yperman But the the only stakeholders we we would have would be ah local people who are dealing with with archeology and and history. But that's more like consulting. It's not like they they can mandatory prevent something or. 20:25.58 archpodnet I have. 20:27.94 Wouter Yperman Or put certain measures on it. Um generally people are interested in history. They are generally interested in archaeology. It's just unfortunately that within in C around. We've got so little time and money to spend on that public to inform them. Ah, but it's not like. 20:39.37 archpodnet Sure Bright bright. 20:47.43 Wouter Yperman Somebody's act actively preventing archeology that doesn't happen. 20:49.65 archpodnet Yeah, well router. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been fascinating. Really fun to see actually that there so are so many similarities between the 2 That's always fun. Um, dissimilarities are also fun to look at. But. 21:07.21 Wouter Yperman Jimmy. 21:09.31 archpodnet Um I think maybe we'll we'll have you on for another podcast so we can dig um into that a little bit further and thanks everyone for joining us this week and thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you again in the field goodbye. 21:23.73 succinctbill Take it easy. 21:26.40 Andrew Kinkella See you guys next time. 21:30.10 archpodnet Um, Router with the flair are. 21:31.70 Wouter Yperman Goodbye who. 21:31.36 succinctbill Um, ah yeah.