00:00.37 Chris All right? Everybody welcome to the crm archeology podcast and joining me today is and all from California I'm not going to start I'm not going to say California anymore. But we've got bill Andrew. 00:11.99 succinctbill Good morning. 00:14.38 Andrew Kinkella Hello Everybody hey. 00:17.82 Chris And Heather and I am in Cabo San Lucas mexico the internet seems to be pretty great here but it it could go in and out either way and and just to let the listeners know too I will be bailing on segment three because we I have to go get my covid test so we can fly home tomorrow. But so so Heather's heather 00:17.83 archpodnet Hi everyone. 00:32.82 archpodnet Um. 00:33.76 succinctbill And I think what they don't know is that he actually has to go on a open ocean fishing trip and enjoy himself in the sun while we're all in the winter except in California we're not really in the winter. But. 00:37.54 Chris Yeah. 00:41.44 Chris I mean I wish we did do whale watching yesterday and we saw whales breaching from our window from the deck of our hotel room like just before the show just pretty great. Yeah, it's a pretty cool time to come down here I got to be honest, anyway. 00:52.90 archpodnet So cool. 00:53.77 succinctbill Wow I. 01:00.47 Chris So heather is going to be taken over the show today as well. Everybody she's going to be managing the show after this point and I hope that she can do this a lot more. It's nice I know it's nice for us to have other people that can that can do this. So so that's what's going to be happening so just to let you guys know. 01:09.31 archpodnet Scary. 01:17.48 Chris And today we have a guest and I should have looked up how long he has been a member of the archaeology podcast network on our members team and but it's been a long time I don't know how long it's been It's been at least a year if not more and he's a frequent commenter I love it when people get engaged. That's the whole reason we set up the slack team for members is so they can talk about the episodes that they hear with the with the guests and I and I know he listens to Sira Mark I know he listens to archaeotech and and probably a couple others and it's just. Fantastic. So let me introduce all the way from Belgium Woter Youperman and I probably said it wrong. How's it going with. But. 01:56.14 Wouter Yperman Oh sorry yeah I'm fine I'm fine. 02:00.75 Chris Awesome! Well why don't we start out by just introduce yourself I know you sent me your bio but I want to hear from you your your quick. 02:09.27 Wouter Yperman Click back in height elate and. 02:10.72 Chris Background how you got into archeology and what you're doing today because you're in you're in basically c r m in Belgium and that's what we're going to focus on for this episode but how did you get there. 02:17.34 Wouter Yperman And yeah, so um I finished my master degree in archaeology in 2001 and at that time there was not much work in Archeology. So I wound up mostly teaching but I was always connected to archeology to a society. Ah, volunteers that were dealing with archaeology in ah in a famish city. Um, but then things started to change and then mostly because of legislation and then in ah, 2006 I Got my first ah real crm project and since then I've been full time. 02:38.89 Chris Um. 02:53.51 Wouter Yperman Ser archeologist and in 2011 I joined my current company and so I've been doing crm ah for more than 15 years now almost um and I do about everything so that means, um. 03:03.26 Chris Um. 03:11.50 Wouter Yperman I am a field tech I'm a supervisor I'm a crew Chief I Do Prehistory all the way to the second World War Urban Rural areas ah fieldworking trenching auguring excavations writing reports. Unfortunately um, do a bit of. Research and development maintaining database things like that. So. It's It's a lot. Yeah. 03:33.56 Chris Okay, yeah, well let's let's start out this podcast by talking about why you're a seer archeologist and what I mean by that is when we talk about it in this country I mean basically all our jobs are the result of like 1 paragraph in the national historic preservation act that says. You'll do this dot dot dot. Everybody has a career I mean there's a little bit more to it than that. But but that's basically it so what? what requires cultural resource management in Belgium is it is it local laws is it is it federal um laws or you know what. 03:53.51 Wouter Yperman That. 04:08.68 Wouter Yperman Well um, in the beginning it it was it was local law and when they said well we think archaeology is important but Cia Ram didn't exists So so it was all the local government that was doing the archaeology. Um, and. 04:09.51 Chris What requires you to go out there and do these things. 04:27.28 Wouter Yperman Then they realized they couldn't do it on their own so they started to to make archaeology mandate. Um, but then the most significant impact ah regarding Crm Archeology is the treaty of a letterta. 04:31.45 Chris Um, you. 04:43.18 Wouter Yperman Ah, as it is generally called which ah more or less requires within Europe that any development should allow archeology to happen. Um, how a country does that that's according to the country. 04:43.28 Chris Um, okay. 04:52.60 Chris Oh. 04:57.76 Chris Okay. 04:59.65 Wouter Yperman And solanders ah choses to make that cm So the government makes up rules and controls. Um and the actual fieldwork is done by Cm companies. So that's ah and and we employ about well. 05:11.30 Chris Okay. 05:16.64 Wouter Yperman We I mean flounders in archeology. There are about 200 full-time archeologists who working inlanders. 05:20.99 Chris E. 05:22.97 archpodnet Wow it doesn't actually sound like a whole lot I have a question so you said you started in COrM and 2006 and it seems like that lines up with flanders. Um, or I'm not saying that right? How do you say? flanders. 05:32.32 Wouter Yperman Yep. 05:37.89 Wouter Yperman Well, you got you got the region flanders and you got flemish archeology flemish government flemish language. 05:41.35 archpodnet Right? God did so the flanders um became independent from Belgium right in 2006 or 2007 okay 05:53.14 Wouter Yperman No, no, no no. 05:58.11 archpodnet Explain I'm trying to I I know something happened in flanders and Belgium and so excuse my ignorance but I know that that there was a change in 2006 2007 politically and I'm wondering if that was the inception of Crm and that's why you started working in Crm. 06:13.85 Wouter Yperman Yeah, so um I could do a whole podcast about belgian politics. It's it's the the number 1 failure for students in the last year um yeah now it it is it is difficult. so so um 06:22.42 Chris I. 06:25.76 archpodnet Including me obviously. Ah. 06:31.94 Wouter Yperman Belgium is is still 1 country but we've got different regions and and the very very simple part is you got the northern region which is calledlanders where they speak Dutch which is ah well flemish which is a kind of Dutch and in the south you've got walloon where they speak french so that's the very very simple concept of Belgium. 06:33.38 archpodnet Um, right. 06:45.45 archpodnet Bright. 06:51.78 Wouter Yperman Um, but during the period of of Belgium history ah more and more autonomy was given to the different regions and at a certain point the autonomy regarding culture and more specifically archeology was indeed transferred ah to. 07:06.56 archpodnet Are. 07:11.70 Wouter Yperman Ah, flemish institute which is called ah, yeah, ep which is the institute of ah archeloggu partymonium so the institute of the the archaeological heritage to speak. So um and there were also. 07:24.29 archpodnet Look at. 07:29.43 Wouter Yperman Realizing archaeology is important and at first they did everything on their own so you had the only archaeologists were working for the flemish government but then they they realized in 9096 that they couldn't do it all on the road so they got a little bit of COrM in there. 07:41.82 archpodnet Oh. 07:47.27 archpodnet And. 07:48.16 Wouter Yperman Not much but a bit and then law started to change and in 2006 there was another big change. Um, which really starts cm archeology in flandlanders and then the treat of Faletta which is 2016 ah is another boost. 08:00.74 archpodnet Okay. 08:08.16 Wouter Yperman So basically you got ninety ninety six two thousand and six and 2016 there's not the 3 major dates. 08:13.23 archpodnet Okay, well the the reason I asked is because you know in the in the bio that you provided us you talked about how um archeology is treated very differently and um, when you work in a certain region that is where you work and. 08:20.86 Wouter Yperman Button. 08:30.20 Wouter Yperman That's for work. They don't get expert at since I'm very part. 08:31.91 archpodnet They don't really mix and in America we do have different types of archeology even outside of academia and how archeology is treated from a government side is different than how archeology is treated from in the private sector. It still has so. You know, good kind of ah, same kind of principles. But how things are handled ah the pressures behind private c or m archeology versus let's say forest archeology. Um, which is run by the government then. You know it definitely impacts how you do archeology and so I was kind of curious. Um, it seems like since she's in flanders it is c or m archeology. But in the other areas it is government led archeology. Okay, and I was curious if there's some. 09:21.11 Wouter Yperman Yep. 09:25.67 archpodnet Correlation between the 2 if you um, yeah, if you see um, a major difference in how they handle versus. Um how you handle c or m in in your region. 09:35.69 Wouter Yperman Yeah, ah so at the beginning you've got your archaeology which is dictated by the academic World. So The archaeologists doing archaeology for the government were having an academic training just as I have received. Um, and in the south of the country Balloon. It is still the government that does the archaeology for for the vast majority. Um, so they are like I am academically trained and they do archaeology more like an academic world which means um. To be Blunt. You've got a lot of quality but you've got less quantity. So Do they do less research and less excavations. Ah, but each research is excavation is ah generally speaking has more quality while in the Crm World. Ah. Because of competition because of a free and open Market. Um, you've got your academic archeology which has diverted more and more from the strict academic rules and got more into well this is a free and open Market. What is the Goal. What does your. Archeology wants to Know. Um and we change according to that. So We we got new methods um digitization helped a lot and so we diverted more and more of that analog academic archeology. Have a competitive advantage and so as a result we have a massive Quantity. We do massive amounts of of research. Ah in Flanders. The quality is not what we would like to do but that's because there's ah, a limited budget. 11:11.48 archpodnet Well. 11:28.14 archpodnet Sure it sound. Yeah it face sounds very very similar um, a lot of crm ah properly careology here in America. 11:30.11 Wouter Yperman Um, so that's and there is always difficult to find a middle ground between quality and quantity. But. 11:45.80 archpodnet Um, what we do from a Crm perspective is ah definitely impacted by cost. You know by cost and time um because the purpose is to what we call salvage archeology. It is to deal with the resource and to make sure it's protected. But. 11:51.88 Wouter Yperman Um. 11:52.18 Chris Yeah. 11:59.74 Wouter Yperman For context up and and. 12:01.57 archpodnet Um, and then obviously you have the pressure of the client that only wants to pay a certain amount and the timing. Um because it does get in the way of what they want to do ultimately which is developed but it also is heavily impacted or heavily yeah heavily impacted. Um. 12:04.42 Wouter Yperman Yes. 12:20.16 archpodnet And guided by the regulatory process is that the same in Belgium. 12:23.29 Wouter Yperman Well, there are of course um rules. Ah which is obviously um and they on one part they make sure that there is that there is a base quality and on the other end. It makes sure that that you know what kind of research has been done On. What kind of way. Ah so that means if you go trenching whether our company does it or a different company. It's on the same way I've got a different problem with my microphone I think I get some echo back? Yeah, okay. 12:50.83 archpodnet Okay, yeah, we can We can hear you just fine. Is it distracting. Oh that's where yeah, okay. 12:58.54 Chris I'm I'm getting that too I'm not sure where it's coming from. Yeah yeah, no worries. Well it probably won't come out in the um in the recording we could just keep moving. 13:06.63 Andrew Kinkella Cool. Um I have a follow-up question. Ah wilder just on that. So ah in Belgium between the crm um work and the academic work is there a feeling that the crm work is the second class work or like the dirty work whereas the academic one is the. 13:06.86 archpodnet Okay I follow up. 13:07.52 Wouter Yperman Yeah. 13:25.87 Wouter Yperman But well we see it as well of of course of even it. Of course there is a difference. Um, we we sometimes say we just live on different planets. Um, and so so it's It's not big that different from ah from ah. 13:26.38 Andrew Kinkella Good one? No I'm curious right. 13:26.83 archpodnet I whatever Andrew ah whatever I 13:31.18 Chris Ah, don't answer that. 13:45.81 Wouter Yperman And the other location in the world but um and an academic archeologist just to to be general has a few sites while I ah see am archaeologist I've literally done hundreds of sites. So I've. 13:54.91 Andrew Kinkella Wow. 13:59.18 Chris The. 13:59.37 Andrew Kinkella Exactly. 14:02.37 Wouter Yperman I've been everywhere I've looked at everything not in the greatest detail that I would like to do that. Ah, but I've looked at at a very broad ah range of sites while an academic archeologist has a very good knowledge of very limited sites. So it's. 14:17.69 Chris Um. 14:19.82 Andrew Kinkella Ripe. 14:20.55 Wouter Yperman It's not bad. 1 is better than the other. They're just different ah but of course academic archeology is unable to ah to maintain the speed of work that we do in crm to make sure that all the building projects ah are completed on time while the archeological part that is. 14:22.70 archpodnet That. 14:29.64 Andrew Kinkella Right. 14:30.84 archpodnet Yes. 14:37.25 Chris You. 14:37.94 Andrew Kinkella Right now. 14:39.73 Wouter Yperman So um, there is that difference. Ah it is we We don't see yourself better or worse than the other. Um, sometimes we get the feeling but generally it's It's just it's just different. Um, you've got different opportunities. You've got different interests you um. 14:49.35 Andrew Kinkella Um, yeah, right. 14:56.12 archpodnet Are. 14:59.44 Wouter Yperman You've got more science behind you things like that if you are an academic archeologist. 15:01.62 Andrew Kinkella Yeah, it's I I'm sorry I just was interested I thought it was just cool. How similar all this is turning out to be between the 2 countries. 15:02.22 archpodnet Are there go for it. Very similar. Is there cooperation between academic and C or M archeologists have you noticed? okay. 15:10.14 Chris Yeah, right. 15:11.67 Wouter Yperman Step Yeah, very very little so the um, the cooperation is like we we as a company we have to write on students to work for us during ah during holidays where they. They must get their ah like their practicals so they provide Education. Of course they provide students for us. Um, we provide a lot of data. But unfortunately there's very little done with that data. Um, they do work with our data. But. 15:32.49 archpodnet And so provide more handle like students role as. 15:48.89 Wouter Yperman We provide so much data that they can't process all that but on the whole speaking There is not much communication between the academic world and the Crm world that that's why I said we on different planets I'm not we or. 16:00.61 archpodnet Yep, very similar very similar I mean I think a lot of theory um or academics are very often. You know giving credit or at least have the opportunity and the time to develop theory and to yeah. 16:15.40 Wouter Yperman Yeah, at. 16:17.22 archpodnet And sorry excuse me Chris cut that out. Please um where c or m we just we're just like you said we're so busy that we don't have the time although I do see more and more now Crm is starting to contribute um not just. 16:21.74 Wouter Yperman Chris up it. Um, where it hearing. 16:31.53 Wouter Yperman Or more next year it starts us. 16:37.27 archpodnet Reports but you know starting to contribute um on the theoretical side as well here in the United States you're starting to see that change in Belgium. 16:45.10 Wouter Yperman Um, well the the theoreticalriical side is is indeed more more academic. Um, and we also see in in in papers that are being written. It's all academic. We don't write papers in Sierra and we don't have time to do that? Um, so. 16:53.93 archpodnet Chirp. 17:01.18 archpodnet Yeah, exactly. 17:04.86 Wouter Yperman Sometimes you foreign archaeologists get the impression that there is very little archaeology done in flanders because the academic world in Flanders is doing archeology but it's not all done inlanders. it's it's abroad it's in it's in turkey it's in italy. 17:10.31 archpodnet Ah. 17:17.32 archpodnet Yes, right. 17:21.57 Wouter Yperman Ah, places like that. So. There's very little academic crm a sorry academic archeology done in Flo. So. There's very little papers about that. Um, but there is a and it's the third or fourth year that this happened where the flemish government is giving ah a fund to do. Research about this crm data that has been collected to get new insights and that to figure out is is there a lack of knowledge that we have now solved or where we can do better. So within crm there is a budget to do that. But. Of course that's very limited compared to the work that the academic archeology is doing. 18:05.39 archpodnet You know there's some. There's some pressures which we won't get into but specifically in California archeology where you see a lot of the academic archeologists are not in doing California archeology I mean we have ah ah quite a few um, you know great. Archeology programs in in California and and very very few of the of the um, very few of the you know what I'm going to stop here and I'll so I'm going to ask this question because I think it's going to start. Um, a conversation and so we'll just stop here and. 18:29.17 Wouter Yperman Very you you know what here? well. 18:34.10 Chris So Wel stop. 18:41.14 Chris Well Okay, so so maybe maybe come up with a way to rephrase what you were just saying and then say we'll talk about that on the other side and then I'll cut all this out. Yeah because I need a good I need a good cut point. Yeah. 18:43.28 archpodnet I'll ask that question on the other side. Yeah, okay, let me give me a second here. Yeah no no no I know I know I just thought I'm just not gonna um' see here. Okay, so so louder in in California specifically because that's what I know. Um and I think we can take this on the and the next segment because I'm going to probably will start I'm definitely interested in Andrew and Bill's um perception on this but there's you know we have some great archeology programs in. In California but a majority of the professors there do not work in California archeology there work and it sounds like it's the same there. So I think we're going to take a break here and we'll talk about that on the other side.